Practicing on CPU's - The Case for Level 9

[pure_awesome]

This is something that has bugged me for a very, very long time. I was originally saving everything for one massive post correcting what I feel are "common misconceptions", but recent events have made me move up the schedule. I am currently in the middle of a debate with forum member Natch regarding what level of CPU is the best to practice on. In short, I claim Level 9, he claims level 3. Suffice to say, the debate has degenerated as a result of some inflammatory comments on both sides. Natch suggested taking the debate to Tactical Discussion, and I agreed.

Notes: I'm fully aware that the common consensus supports level 3. I am hoping to change this.
And yes, it is infinitely superior to practice against a human, always. Unfortunately, some do not have that option.


When learning something new about Smash, be it a new tech, how to space a certain attack, etc. there are four stages that you generally go through.

Stage 1. Learn about it
Duh. Before you go throwing out Shiek's DACUS, you need to learn how it's performed. Want to become a monster at spacing with Marth? Might want to learn the range of his attacks first, right?

Stage 2. Perform and Practice (in Training Mode).
I put "in Training Mode" because I think we can all agree that this is the best way to do it. Learn to perform the ability consistently on whichever dummy you choose. Set your opponent to walk, run, jump, whatever, and just smack him around until you're comfortable that you can perform the ability at will.

Stage 3. Perform Under Pressure.
Performing your new ability won't do you much good if you can't pull it off mid-match. If you see an opening in your opponent's defenses that you want to punish with your newfound Boost Smash, are you going to be able to pull it off, or will the speed at which it happens cause you to flub it into a dash attack? Now, here's where we disagree. Clearly, in order to learn this, you need to have something applying pressure to you. The key to this step is to learn to perform under pressure, and that pressure needs a source.

My hypothesis: Level 3's don't pressure. To try this out, I set a 1 on 1 match, my Metaknight versus a level 3 Metaknight. I didn't move. This CPU did the following on Final Destination:

Run towards me a bit, stop before passing the halfway point of the stage. Walk away from me. Shorthop towards. Walk towards me again. Fsmash nothing.. Shield. Jump straight up. Run towards me. Wait. Roll away from me. Fully charge a Dsmash at nothing. Jump away from me. Run towards. Roll behind. Hold shield for two full seconds, and finally shield grab. The whole ordeal took about ten seconds.

As you can see, that's clearly not pressure. Can you still work on your new ability in that time? Of course you can. But you have all the time in the world to think about it, which is regressing back to Stage 2.

Same scenario, level 9 Metaknight on Final Destination.

Run completely across FD, shorthop a Fair. That's pressure.

The point of stage 3 is learning to perform your new ability in the heat of the moment. You're trying to train yourself to be able to do it without thinking. Level 9's do that. They pressure you, and don't give you the time to think about it. You have to learn to perform it quickly, calmly, and efficiently, all while there's another character in your face trying to beat you down.

Level 3's don't do that. They're morons. There's no urgency. There's no pressure. You've regressed back to stage 2; Performing your carefully thought out new tech on a mindless, helpless buffoon.

I want to take a moment to address the main problem that people seem to have with Level 9's, in that they PS everything. To respond to this, I go back several months to when I first learned to perform Falco's Laser tricks. I set the CPU to 9 and went nuts. I was running all over the stage, frantically trying to get a Laser in edgewise, trying to retreat from my opponent, quickly reverse a laser, and resume my fight for survival.

I lost a ton of those matches. The CPU PS'ed probably every single one of my Lasers, and pummeled me into oblivion. Does it matter? Hell no. At this stage, you are playing to learn, not playing to win. Playing to win against a CPU of any level is a bad idea and will make you form some nasty habits. But I focused on playing to learn Falco's Laser game, and it worked. It may not work on Level 9's but it sure works on people.

Stage 4. Learn and Practice Practical, Competitive Applications of your New Ability.
This, obviously, is impossible to do with CPUs and can only be accomplished by playing humans. Stage 4 lasts forever, theoretically.


In short, for stage 1 and 2, you should be in Training mode. For stage 3, you should be fighting a level 9 and playing to learn, not to win. Stage 4... buy a car, buddy.


Note: It is entirely possible to jump from Stage 2 to Stage 4, where you have plenty of people to play against. This is for those who do not, and wish to learn anyway.

 

[-Ran]

The issue with level 9 computers isn't pressure, it's how they air dodge immediately after getting hit [which will give the false impression of a juggle as you quickly do another successful attack], and power shield a good portion of the most reliable attacks that are used on at a competitive level.

Level 3's take a hit like a scrub.
Level 9's take a hit like a douche bag.

When I want to practice under pressure, I call up another tournament player and go meet them. I've never felt pressured by a CPU.

 

[pure_awesome]

That's my point. You're playing to learn, not playing to win. Continuously juggling a CPU out of airdodge doesn't teach you anything. You'll win a pointless match against a CPU without having advanced your game in the slightest. Why do it?

Power Shielding I mentioned. It doesn't matter if they PS the attack, as long as you know you pulled it off correctly. If you can say to yourself that you properly retreated and B-reversaled a double laser while something was pressuring you, that's a win. That's success. It doesn't matter if you hit the CPU or not. It doesn't matter if he Power Shields. What matters is that you did what you were trying to learn to do; perform your ability without thinking about it too hard.


EDIT: People > CPUs, for real.

 

[Darktemplio]

I actually do agree that a lvl 9 comp is better than lvl 3 to practice against because its not like it was in melee that when a projectile was PS it would get reflected back. In THAT case, you need to practice against lvl 5 or even 3. In brawl however PS doesnt reflect so you actually manage to learn how to use lasers for example without being interrupted by its return.

Not only that but since lvl 9s do apply some sort of pressure, as a toon link main I learn different camping techniques (which DO work on human opponents) and expand a lot on my projectile game.

Of course this is only done if theres no human players to practice against cuz i honestly prefer a not so good human over a lvl 9 comp.

 

[Greenpoe]

How about level 8? They don't have inhuman reflexes.

 

[Straider]

I played usually alone since i got smash and i think the best way to practise is with a cpu lvl 8 with stamina on auto, playing like this means you have to space every move you do because every hit on you is a guaranteed death on 100% or more and he don't have an inhuman ability to block you. I have achieve 140% with my main and is really fun to try to get better.

 

[The_NZA]

Reading through it, I agree with the first post. I would ammend step 2 to include combating level 3's. Now, the only thing is, very few of us truely live in an environment where we have NO competition. At least, I have people around me who are competition, and so this topic will probably not help me. But to anyone else, I hope it does.

*EDIT*

also, just to note, the type of training you are directly talking about in this topic is not the "getting naturally better" that conjures images of becoming a more efficient fighter, spacing, learning to DI, etc. The type of training you are talking about here is learning how to use AT's and applying it to a match. The first type of training can only happen with a human player. The second could be assisted by your prescribed methods.

 

[hichez50]

IU think this is for learning new ATs not a new technique. I would seperate the 2. Also I woul d add only learn 1 technique/AT at a time.

 

[Jenkins]

but levels three's are SOOO much fun to play... ^^. After a level one olimar has loses his pikmin, just stand back and watch. its hilarious

 

[Xiivi]

Play against level 4 CPUs. They are simply the best for practicing if you must resort to a CPU.

But go for a real person instead. >_>

 

[Darktemplio]

I played usually alone since i got smash and i think the best way to practise is with a cpu lvl 8 with stamina on auto, playing like this means you have to space every move you do because every hit on you is a guaranteed death on 100% or more and he don't have an inhuman ability to block you. I have achieve 140% with my main and is really fun to try to get better.

Hmm thats actually a pretty good idea....I'm gonna try that to improve camping skills and finally get rid of my habit of being impatient.

but levels three's are SOOO much fun to play... ^^. After a level one olimar has loses his pikmin, just stand back and watch. its hilarious

The sad part is that level 9 olimars do that too -_-
Once a lvl 9 olimar loses his pikmin i run for a while until it FINALLY decides to pick up pikmin...

 

[pure_awesome]

@Straider
Have you suggested Stamina mode in a previous thread? I remember someone mentioning it a while back, and when I went to try it back then, found that it worked surprisingly well in teaching you to not get hit. I still do it every once in a while.

@Xiivi
I played a few matches with level 4, some of the "I never moved" variety and some of the "I'm actually playing" variety, and I am of the opinion that level 4's are only slightly less moronic than level 3's. They still did completely wierd things, like downsmashing nothing, holding their shield while halfway across the stage, etc. Basically, I still don't like it. Why do you prefer level 4?

@hichez
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the first bit, and I don't want to respond assuming you mean one thing when you might mean another, so could you clarify, please? I do agree with the second part, though, learning one ability at a time is the way to go.

Concerning Level 8's
After trying a few matches with CPU on level 8, it seems like they behave much the same as level 9, though they don't PS as much, so I'll agree that it's probably as, if not more effective than level 9's.

Concerning "Learning to Play Better" versus "Learning Techs and Advanced Techs"
I consider the former to be Stage 4, the practical and competitive applications of your knowledge. I completely agree that this can only be truly accomplished by playing humans. Playing CPUs is for training your hands, not your mind.

Concerning Playing Humans versus Playing CPUs
Play a human. Seriously.


If I missed anything that you feel deserved a response, please say so. Thanks.


EDIT: For anyone curious, this is the post that started it all.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with fighting Level 9 CPUs at your level, so long as you keep in mind that they are, in fact, computers. Use the opportunity to practice spacing, punishment, and the practical application of techs that you've been practicing.

Don't play to win against a Level 9, play to learn. Don't go looking for strategies that will win you games, just learn how to be comfortable moving quickly and efficiently with your character, while under pressure.

Level 3 CPUs are morons. If you're going to practice against them you may as well practice on Sandbag. Once you get to a higher level of play, you're going to want to abandon practicing against CPUs altogether.


Is it better to play against a real person? Of course.

 

[Natch]

ATTN: EVERYONE

pure_awesome has misleaded on what the actual issue is, only providing HIS argument, and no statements from myself. I never argued that Level 3's WOULD give you pressure. He assumed THAT was the whole point of the debate. He believes that a player should jump immediatly from training mode to Lv 9 CPU's, with no middle ground in between him

Read the following thread, it is exactly what he is referring to. After you're done reading it, please come back to this post for further commentary.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214334

Notice how he is the only one who adovcates level 9 CPU's. In the OP, FatJackieChan(a user I have taken under my wing) tells about how he faced level 9 CPU's. He says he forgot all of the spacing with Marth that he practiced the day before, and was wrecked by them. Clearly, he unable to stop himself from reverting back to old habits whille under pressure. He wasn't even able to handle the pressure in the first place. Pure_awesome still suggested he use level 9's despite this.

Keep in mind, FatJackieChan did not know what spacing even WAS 4 days ago. He grasped the concept quite well, but putting it into practice is something entirely different. Pure_awesome's training method works best for induvidual ATs, and AFTER you have already established the basics. Spacing is something entirely dyanamic, unlike something static like Snake's Mortarslide-it's the same every single time.

FatJackieChan first learned the range of Marth's moves in training mode. He's practiced spacing against something entirely static. If you're standing still, he knows the range he needs to be at. In order to help him the most, going against something slightly more dyanamic would be best-a level 3 CPU for instance. Now he's practicing spacing against something that moves, but doesn't attack. He will eventually learn how to space against a moving target.

A level 9 CPU is the most dynamic CPU out there, but FatJackieChan's practice was not sufficiently ingrained enough in order for him to keep up his spacing while still fighting, which he was trying to do. Beyond that, the CPU itself was too hard for him to beat-CPU's are quite different from people, so you can lose unless you know how to fight them.


There is another that agrees with the level 3 CPU option. It is found in SamuraiPanda's "The MOST IMPORTANT Thread You'll Ever Read." Check the very last paragraph to see how the OP talks about practicing against CPU's. To save you the trouble, I'll post that paragraph. I broke it up into 2 paragraphs to make it easier on your eyes.

In order to combine these principles effectively, most people must abandon bad habits which initially will most likely make you perform worse. This also means that you will probably have to slow your game down. Furthermore, playing against computers nonchalantly reinforces committing to attacks, spamming, and poor spacing because they do not tend to punish you for your mistakes. You may have heard the popular phrase, "practice makes perfect". I do not agree entirely with this adage, but feel that Vince Lombardi was closer to the truth: "practice does not make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect".

If you are going to practice against a computer, I find the most effective way to do this is by playing a level 1-3 (no higher) CPU and take it seriously. Make every move hit, and make sure every move is intentional. Don't worry about combos and flashiness. Worry about being in complete control of your character. Move around, put yourself in awkward situations. You don't have to constantly be attacking as if you were recording a combo video. Slow your game down and you will think of different things to do in different situations.

If you wish to read it yourself, here is the link: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=160643

 

[pure_awesome]

pure_awesome has misleaded on what the actual issue is, only providing HIS argument, and no statements from myself. I never argued that Level 3's WOULD give you pressure. He assumed THAT was the whole point of the debate. He believes that a player should jump immediatly from training mode to Lv 9 CPU's, with no middle ground in between him.

Yes, I do believe that. There's no reason for middle ground between the two, you won't learn anything. And that is all I'm debating.

Notice how he is the only one who adovcates level 9 CPU's.

Notes: I'm fully aware that the common consensus supports level 3. I am hoping to change this.

In the OP, FatJackieChan(a user I have taken under my wing) tells about how he faced level 9 CPU's. He says he forgot all of the spacing with Marth that he practiced the day before, and was wrecked by them. Clearly, he unable to stop himself from reverting back to old habits whille under pressure. He wasn't even able to handle the pressure in the first place. Pure_awesome still suggested he use level 9's despite this.

Learning to perform under pressure is the entire point of stage 3. The fact that he couldn't do it just means he needs more practice. Your theory is that since it was too hard for him the first time, he shouldn't try anymore and should just do something easier.

There's also the problem that he was playing to win, not playing to learn. His definition of success was defined by whether or not he won the match, not whether or not he learned anything.

After reading that thread, read this one. It's found in SamuraiPanda's "The MOST IMPORTANT Thread You'll Ever Read." Check the very last paragraph to see how the OP talks about practicing against CPU's. To save you the trouble, I'll post that paragraph. I broke it up into 2 paragraphs to make it easier on your eyes.

Again, fully aware that the common consensus is level 3's. I'm trying to change that.

 

[Deoxys]

Play against level 4 CPUs. They are simply the best for practicing if you must resort to a CPU.

But go for a real person instead. >_>

Why?

the type of training you are directly talking about in this topic is not the "getting naturally better" that conjures images of becoming a more efficient fighter, spacing, learning to DI, etc. The type of training you are talking about here is learning how to use AT's and applying it to a match. The first type of training can only happen with a human player. The second could be assisted by your prescribed methods.

Huh? You can learn spacing and DI pretty well against CPUs....

 

[Icyo]

I didn't even read your whole post. I practice with level 3's because it's easier to concentrate on getting things down without inhuman reflexes making me go on a rage and throw controllers.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

If you play against the same level too often, your style becomes predictable. Try mixing it up vs random levels in tourney mode or team a few of them against you (also random level cpus).

 

[Tamoo]

I agree with the person above, not every player you play against is the same, so if im trying to learn sumthing new, i tend to just pick random levels between 3 and 9 to start off with, then just concentrate on pulling it off on level 9s.
I think both level 3s and level 9s have their advantages.
Its hard to come to a decision because both u and natch put up good arguments as to which is better.
At the moment, i may be leaning slightly towards level 9s, but i can see why intermediate practice on level 3s could be beneficial if u are just starting out.
I think what it comes down to is, if you are comfortable playing against level 9s already, and have no trouble beating them, by all means practice against them.
If you are relatively new to the game, or have particular troubles against lvl 9s, by all means use level 3s to practice first

 

[Bob Jane T-Mart]

I think that there should be some middle ground between the training stage, and actual practice. This is because it is probably best to ease on the pressure, so the player gets used to it, instead of all at once. This can shock the player quite a bit. So he doesn't know when to try his new techniquie. But I play to win and learn, (against CPUs) which means you have practice trying to pull off the new techniques. So I go for a steady gradient. From lvl 3 to lvl 9.

 

[Mith_]

Psh if you wanna get really good then practice against level 10 computers.

vs lvl 3 if practicing a tech in battle.
vs lvl 8 if trying to apply it.

 

[kupo15]

I find lvl9's bad for my game because I have to try and learn their pattern and force my way to an attack. Learning and adapting to a cpus pattern to fight is not good when fighting a human. lvl3 is good for the sandbagging practice without the need to learn a pattern to practice.

 

[fissionprime]

level 9's have inhuman reflexes (not being humans) but lvl 3's are too easy, probably something in between.

 

[Saberdude27]

obviously, playing with real people is better-it's more realistic and gives you what a real person would do in a stressful situation. Level 9's are so cheap in that they somehow block a sure-to-hit move that will kill them. and what annoys me is that if you're playing 3 on 1(3 cpu's against you) they all team up on you rather than themselves. Even if you're on a cpu team, your partner will attack you for some reason(I've experimented with this.) However, i do believe that training with cpu's test you against your instincts, which could be quite helpful.

 

[Crystanium]

My hypothesis: Level 3's don't pressure. To try this out, I set a 1 on 1 match, my Metaknight versus a level 3 Metaknight.

Your hypothesis isn't a hypothesis. It's a fact. This is silly. A level 3 doesn't pressure you, but a level 9 does, and therefore, the level 9 is better? Get this: a level 3 acts more human than a level 9. When a CPU is at level 9, it already knows what you're going to do before you do it, hence perfect-shielding most of the time. Heck, I recall putting the speed at 1/4 and trying to grab my opponent, and before the Grappling Beam came out, Mario was already rolling behind me.

I played a few matches with level 4, some of the "I never moved" variety and some of the "I'm actually playing" variety, and I am of the opinion that level 4's are only slightly less moronic than level 3's. They still did completely wierd things, like downsmashing nothing, holding their shield while halfway across the stage, etc. Basically, I still don't like it. Why do you prefer level 4?

Why is this relevant? Is this relevant? Can you honestly say a level 9 CPU, or even a human player has never done something like this? An example would be when approaching, using f-air but not hitting the opponent.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The inhuman reflex thing isn't really true. There is absolutely nothing in this game that works against good humans that doesn't work against a level 9 AI; you will find people who powershield that much and should be ready for it (it was far more extreme in melee; in brawl the level 9 AI has a very reasonable powershielding rate).

Seriously, if you don't have good local competition, get WiFi. WiFi is about a million times better than AI. Just be sure to avoid the joke "with anyone" mode and stick to "with friends". WiFi makes a few tactics not work as well as they should and messes up timing (which isn't as big of a deal as some people would lead you to believe). However, you can be guaranteed of real, human intelligence on the other end. As long as you play locally reasonable often as well as play on WiFi, you will not learn "bad habits" or anything of the sort, and it will be nothing but good practice. Even playing random scrubs from gamefaqs or something is worth more than playing the AI at any level. I don't really understand the purpose of the AI in brawl except maybe to test things in training mode (an "escape combo" setting would be so useful...); WiFi just outclasses the AI in every way.

 

[Crystanium]

The inhuman reflex thing isn't really true.

Unless you understand "inhuman" to mean, "not human," in which this case would be accurate.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Here I am, trying to go pro with Brawl, yet I do't know what the initials DI mean...

 

[illinialex24]

Its level 3's. They are much much better. Level 9's have bad habits and inhuman reflexes, you are much better going with 3's. Neither is good but.....

 

[Kirby Redux]

I personally play against lvl 9. I don't have anyone close with whom i can play games. I prefer the "pressure" given by lvl 9. Lvl 8 and below just don't give ANY challenge whatsoever. I think the point of picking lvl 9 is that it gives you a certain amount of unpredictability. With "super-human reflexes," lvl 9 can sometimes catch you off-guard, at which point you have to decide what to do. You don't get that level of unpredictability unless you play against an actual person.

Edit:

WiFi is a better option, but when you don't feel like waiting in queue or using AiB's chat, use a lvl 9 if you want a "challenging" CPU, and lvl 3 if you want to practice beating on a lifeless piece of junk.

 

[pure_awesome]

@Icyo, kupo15, fissionprime, Saberdude27. Dryn and illinialex24

I want to take a moment to address the main problem that people seem to have with Level 9's, in that they PS everything. To respond to this, I go back several months to when I first learned to perform Falco's Laser tricks. I set the CPU to 9 and went nuts. I was running all over the stage, frantically trying to get a Laser in edgewise, trying to retreat from my opponent, quickly reverse a laser, and resume my fight for survival.

I lost a ton of those matches. The CPU PS'ed probably every single one of my Lasers, and pummeled me into oblivion. Does it matter? Hell no. At this stage, you are playing to learn, not playing to win. Playing to win against a CPU of any level is a bad idea and will make you form some nasty habits. But I focused on playing to learn Falco's Laser game, and it worked. It may not work on Level 9's but it sure works on people.

If you are playing against a CPU with the intent to win, you are playing wrong. Learning how to win against a CPU, of any level, does nothing but create bad habits.

Play CPUs to train your hands, not your mind.

A level 3 doesn't pressure you, but a level 9 does, and therefore, the level 9 is better? Get this: a level 3 acts more human than a level 9.

Considering the entire point of Stage 3 is pressure, I would say that yes, whether or not something provides pressure would be an important factor. And don't be silly, neither one behaves anything like a human.

 

[Natch]

@Icyo, kupo15, fissionprime, Saberdude27. Dryn and illinialex24

If you are playing against a CPU with the intent to win, you are playing wrong. Learning how to win against a CPU, of any level, does nothing but create bad habits

First off, nobody so far has said that you should train by playing with the intent to win. You're arguing against nobody.

Play CPUs to train your hands, not your mind.

Nobody ever argued the oppisite.

Considering the entire point of Stage 3 is pressure, I would say that yes, whether or not something provides pressure would be an important factor. And don't be silly, neither one behaves anything like a human.

Who are you to dictate how I train? What if I only want some pressure? Just because I practice against Level 3's, doesn't mean I can never practice against Level 9's, so can I always up the pressure when I need to.

Maybe some people can't transition immediatly from Training Mode to Level 9 CPU's? What if they need a middle ground? Sure, they might be training at a slower rate, but is there anything inherintly wrong with that? Are they breaking "DA RULES"?

 

[pure_awesome]

First off, nobody so far has said that you should train by playing with the intent to win. You're arguing against nobody.

Nobody ever argued the oppisite.

You need to learn to read between lines. I was pointing this out to remind everyone that it doesn't matter that the CPU PS everything, since you shouldn't care about beating him in the first place.

Who are you to dictate how I train?...Sure, they might be training at a slower rate, but is there anything inherintly wrong with that? Are they breaking "DA RULES"?

When did I ever say you have to train this way? If you want to train in a way that teaches you things slower, go crazy. It's your call, I'm not your boss. Go look at my first post in the other thread. I said "There's nothing wrong with training on Level 9's." Not "You absolutely have to train on level 9's or you'll be terrible."

I'm not trying to dictate how you train. Stop getting all offended and defensive and look at what I'm saying, which is that, for the majority, training on level 9 CPUs is more effective at Stage 3 of development than training on level 3's. Contrary to popular belief.

Does that mean that everyone in the world must immediately switch to training level 9, or level 8? Of course not, and don't pretend that I'm supporting such a ridiculous notion.

 

[Natch]

You need to learn to read between lines. I was pointing this out to remind everyone that it doesn't matter that the CPU PS everything, since you shouldn't care about beating him in the first place.



When did I ever say you have to train this way? If you want to train in a way that teaches you things slower, go crazy. It's your call, I'm not your boss. Go look at my first post in the other thread. I said "There's nothing wrong with training on Level 9's." Not "You absolutely have to train on level 9's or you'll be terrible."

I'm not trying to dictate how you train. Stop getting all offended and defensive and look at what I'm saying, which is that, for the majority, training on level 9 CPUs is more effective at Stage 3 of development than training on level 3's. Contrary to popular belief.

Does that mean that everyone in the world must immediately switch to training level 9, or level 8? Of course not, and don't pretend that I'm supporting such a ridiculous notion.

M'kay, thanks for clearing that up. I thought that's what you were arguing.

All I care about is that you know Level 3's can be useful for training purposes. On my side of the table, I now agree that Level 9's can be useful for training as well. Honestly, I'm looking into practicing with Level 9's once I'm at the tail end of my current training regiment.

 

[Natch]

You need to learn to read between lines. I was pointing this out to remind everyone that it doesn't matter that the CPU PS everything, since you shouldn't care about beating him in the first place.



When did I ever say you have to train this way? If you want to train in a way that teaches you things slower, go crazy. It's your call, I'm not your boss. Go look at my first post in the other thread. I said "There's nothing wrong with training on Level 9's." Not "You absolutely have to train on level 9's or you'll be terrible."

I'm not trying to dictate how you train. Stop getting all offended and defensive and look at what I'm saying, which is that, for the majority, training on level 9 CPUs is more effective at Stage 3 of development than training on level 3's. Contrary to popular belief.

Does that mean that everyone in the world must immediately switch to training level 9, or level 8? Of course not, and don't pretend that I'm supporting such a ridiculous notion.

M'kay, thanks for clearing that up. I thought that's what you were arguing.

All I care about is that you know Level 3's can be useful for training purposes. On my side of the table, I now agree that Level 9's can be useful for training as well. Honestly, I'm looking into practicing with Level 9's once I'm at the tail end of my current training regiment.

 

[M15t3R E]

Lvl 9 computers force you to play a certain way because they CAN pressure you and act with inhuman reflexes. Yet, they do NOT act like any human who uses the character. It puts you into bad habits that can take a while to break out of.

Lvl 3-4 computers don't pressure you too hard and so you do NOT have to change up your normal playstyle to fight them. This allows you to practice many key techniques for your particular character without being put into a bad pattern that differentiates from your usual playstyle.

 

[Chileno4Live]

When i learned how to play with Fox (took me freakin 2 months >_<),, i've always battled LVL 3 and LVL 8/9 computers. I first practiced abit against CPU lvl3, because i needed to use my combo's against a moving but also attacking opponent. After a while (1 week or so) i battled against some higher levels like 6 and 7 and i've applied those Combo's quite effectively while also defending myself with shielding and spot dodges/roll dodges. I fought with those for 3 days, and finally went against lvl 9. Well, lvl 9 is totally different than lvl 6 and 7. It's ridiculously shielding and dodging alot. Not even my lil bro would do that. (he always hits r the entire match for some reason lol) Though, i've still applied my combo's despite the fact that the opponent CPU shielded all my combo's and grabbed me to doom. I've lost quite some matches from CPU's lvl 9 because i didn't battle to win but to apply my combos and techniques. After a while, i finally managed to beat lvl 9 metaknight with applying my combo's. I practiced some more for 2 days and finally called up my friend (who always owned me when i had brawl for the first time) and asked for a match. Well, i completly owned his ***. I was able to use my combo's, and still feeling the pressure of his moves from Marth.

So in other words, just practice CPU lvl 3 if you need to learn your game, and apply them. Then go higher, but take the time, as you need to use them automatically. Like i shorthop automatically now while i did that in the matches VS cpu lvl 3 on purpose. Now i somehow press the button autmatically so it shorthops. I hope what you guys get what i mean XD

 

[Natch]

When i learned how to play with Fox (took me freakin 2 months >_<),, i've always battled LVL 3 and LVL 8/9 computers. I first practiced abit against CPU lvl3, because i needed to use my combo's against a moving but also attacking opponent. After a while (1 week or so) i battled against some higher levels like 6 and 7 and i've applied those Combo's quite effectively while also defending myself with shielding and spot dodges/roll dodges. I fought with those for 3 days, and finally went against lvl 9. Well, lvl 9 is totally different than lvl 6 and 7. It's ridiculously shielding and dodging alot. Not even my lil bro would do that. (he always hits r the entire match for some reason lol) Though, i've still applied my combo's despite the fact that the opponent CPU shielded all my combo's and grabbed me to doom. I've lost quite some matches from CPU's lvl 9 because i didn't battle to win but to apply my combos and techniques. After a while, i finally managed to beat lvl 9 metaknight with applying my combo's. I practiced some more for 2 days and finally called up my friend (who always owned me when i had brawl for the first time) and asked for a match. Well, i completly owned his ***. I was able to use my combo's, and still feeling the pressure of his moves from Marth.

So in other words, just practice CPU lvl 3 if you need to learn your game, and apply them. Then go higher, but take the time, as you need to use them automatically. Like i shorthop automatically now while i did that in the matches VS cpu lvl 3 on purpose. Now i somehow press the button autmatically so it shorthops. I hope what you guys get what i mean XD

I know about the shorthop thing. It's called muscle memory, and you HAVE to have it in order to play well.

 

[kupo15]

@Icyo, kupo15, fissionprime, Saberdude27. Dryn and illinialex24

If you are playing against a CPU with the intent to win, you are playing wrong. Learning how to win against a CPU, of any level, does nothing but create bad habits.

Play CPUs to train your hands, not your mind.

That's my point. If you play a lvl9 then you have to train your mind to find an opening to train your hands. Lvl3s allows you to directly train your hands.

 

[zrky]

I play 7s or 9s, I feel the same way about this 'debate' as pure_awesome. Since I rarely get to play against another human that isn't wifi, I have to find a solution (duh). So I actually do the exact steps mentioned in the OP. Practice the skill and train on a lv9 CPU, then perform it under pressure.

I still lose allot against CPUs because I try to train my fingers as to what im trying to do, I don't feel I get much out of just 3 stocking a brainless CPU when im still LEARNING how to master a move.

 

[Jman115]

That's my point. If you play a lvl9 then you have to train your mind to find an opening to train your hands. Lvl3s allows you to directly train your hands.

No you don't. You are not playing to win or to learn the style. You are simply practicing AT's. I do ti all of the time. I learn a know AT and practice it in training mode. When I feel like I have it down I practice it against a lvl 9. If I can pull it off on a level 9 it usually means I can pull it off with relative ease on a human. But everyone can do their own thing. If computers are your only option like they are for me most of the time, then use them however best fits you.