PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Wenbobular]

But then people who are interested in that kind of stuff won't be able to see it
D:

 

[Deleted member]

A laser is a large commitment based on the frames it takes for the laser to come out. DD'ing with Fox/Marth/anyone can be canceled on any frame. That right there is a pretty good point against lasers being overpowered. It does not cover Falco well on any part of the stage because lasers cover the horizontal and platforms, or vertical-based play(FHs, floats, multi-jumps, etc) will reduce the impact of a laser.

All this says to me is "people can do things to play around my laser sometimes". Tragic. It still doesn't dismantle falco's far superior neutral game in any way.

Additionally, powershielding is far from impossible to become fairly proficient at, ESPECIALLY with characters like Sheik or Marth which are already grounded often and get tricks to make the powershields easier(like crouching). Powershielding is unlike other tactic counters in that it can directly turn Falco's positional advantage against him and he can't handle the momentum change as well as they can as you already stated. Even with powershield counters, Falco still loses a large measure of control when dealing with it.

I didn't say it was hard to do, I said it's almost irrelevant as a control tactic. Powershielding a laser is certainly better than nothing but unless falco has already committed to something it's not likely to turn the momentum against him. Even if for some reason 25% of your lasers get powershielded and falco gets wrecked, it's a worthy trade for the other 75% of the time you molest them back anyway. This isn't even the case, but in the event that it was it would still be worth it.

Falco does not stop people from attacking he merely requires a different means to beat him. That's like saying Puff keeps people from attacking because she floats high and drifts away and Bairs and no one can beat the priority if used correctly. YES you can still attack Puff but you might have to wait a second aka do something else first. Similarly, you might have to wait until Marth swings before attacking or get into a good range. Falco is no different. You have to make him laser or give himself to an unsafe spacing and then punish him.

You have to make him laser or give himself to an unsafe spacing and then punish him.

I don't even need to refute this one, you did it yourself. Falco never has to give himself to an unsafe spacing, and you can't force him to do anything. He has all the cards. If this is how you find yourself losing, you are simply being outplayed.

And then you say Falco always finishes combos....but that's impossible LOL. Melee is deeper than that due to ASDI/SDI/teching/etc. Fox can finish combos if he gets the 2-3 shine spikes he needs on floaties but that's just hard....same with Marth juggling people. Mistakes happen, but putting someone in a bad position still allows for stage control and good damage to come from these situations, and that same concept applies to Falco.

In a word, yes. Every character (that has combos) can choose to end combos in a way that leaves positional advantage for them as well, and can transition into something else, possible for a kill. That said, falco has the best combos, and therefore has the most opportunities relative to the cast to make this happen. Ending in a positional advantage is easy once you know what you're looking for.

Mistakes do happen, but for falco, you cut the amount of mistakes you have with better tech skill and a better neutral game. This is also why I kept telling you to work on your neutral game from January and well into May of this year. Surely you can see where this is going.

Shine grab is NOT perfectly safe. Staling reduces the effectiveness of the technique and even fresh it can still be avoided by some characters or even all with appropriate prediction.

Nice to know that if you shine combo me to **** or I know what you're going to do, I have a small margin to play around it. The fact that those are your best options for avoiding it is terrifying. That doesn't sound like a crushing advantage at all.

-Falco isn't fully understood and prepared for(definitely prepared for less than other characters based on his evolution and what the current metagame looks like....in the current metagame sure he's broken or whatever but that's the players' fault)

The most played character in the game is also the least prepared for? Do you actually believe what you're saying?

-Falco's results dictate people's perceptions of him

As well they should. The character that wins the most at this time is the best at this time. I see nothing wrong with this reasoning.

-Falco could very well be the best character....but not all counters have been truly shown and tested vs him so that claim is premature to me.

The game has been out for nearly 11 years and the community size is waning. How long do you intend to wait before such a claim is mature?

 

[Dr Peepee]

All this says to me is "people can do things to play around my laser sometimes". Tragic. It still doesn't dismantle falco's far superior neutral game in any way.

So laser is beaten sometimes, just like DD'ing/camping/WoP'ing(zoning)/etc is beaten sometimes. Falco is different, not necessarily overpowered.

I didn't say it was hard to do, I said it's almost irrelevant as a control tactic. Powershielding a laser is certainly better than nothing but unless falco has already committed to something it's not likely to turn the momentum against him. Even if for some reason 25% of your lasers get powershielded and falco gets wrecked, it's a worthy trade for the other 75% of the time you molest them back anyway. This isn't even the case, but in the event that it was it would still be worth it.

The momentum does turn against Falco when he gets powershielded against. He either gets hit, has to jump, or has to shield. Falco does not want to do any of these things except maybe jump, but that still pales in comparison to landing a laser and controlling the opponent. Jumping over PS'd lasers comes with its own set of problems like the opponent SH'ing over it first or intercepting your now telegraphed means of attack. Attempting to PS a PS'd laser can work but what if the opponent messes up/chooses to take the laser hit? There's no time to adjust and now the momentum the laser confers can be lost.

Against floaties that number may not be worth it, and I'd think top players should be PS'ing significantly more than that percentage of lasers anyway.

I don't even need to refute this one, you did it yourself. Falco never has to give himself to an unsafe spacing, and you can't force him to do anything. He has all the cards. If this is how you find yourself losing, you are simply being outplayed.

Just like DD'ing is unbeatable so long as you have better spacing and timing than your opponent.....

You force the opponent to commit to an attack/aggressive action or defensive action just as Falco would to a laser and then punish. It's a similar process and arguably harder vs other characters because you don't get that cozy 12ish frame warning on their stuff.

In a word, yes. Every character (that has combos) can choose to end combos in a way that leaves positional advantage for them as well, and can transition into something else, possible for a kill. That said, falco has the best combos, and therefore has the most opportunities relative to the cast to make this happen. Ending in a positional advantage is easy once you know what you're looking for.

Mistakes do happen, but for falco, you cut the amount of mistakes you have with better tech skill and a better neutral game. This is also why I kept telling you to work on your neutral game from January and well into May of this year. Surely you can see where this is going.

I'd like to investigate Marth's combos more before giving you most of this point, but okay.

Falco's kinda slow so he can't always abuse positional advantage, I'll say that much.

Nice to know that if you shine combo me to **** or I know what you're going to do, I have a small margin to play around it. The fact that those are your best options for avoiding it is terrifying. That doesn't sound like a crushing advantage at all.

Pressure is different for each character. Falco's shine grab is rather good but keep in mind we're humans here so the margin of error can be greater than it should be(buffered jumps/rolls/dodges OOS will still be frame perfect so this applies).

The most played character in the game is also the least prepared for? Do you actually believe what you're saying?

Maybe it's prepared for least correctly by most then. *shrug*

All I know is when I see people fight Falco at large, even towards the top, there's some wrong stuff going on there. My theory is that it's because Falco's metagame changed so much, but it seems as though people are catching up more now.

As well they should. The character that wins the most at this time is the best at this time. I see nothing wrong with this reasoning.

I prefer skepticism until facts convince me otherwise. Facts for me are not results so much as results combined with character attributes combined with potential. This is essentially a tier discussion so I'll leave it at that and say I don't mind if people say he's the best right now but wish they wouldn't talk as though Falco has been doing anything crazy pre 2009.

The game has been out for nearly 11 years and the community size is waning. How long do you intend to wait before such a claim is mature?

The game is developing, Falco wasn't nearly as big of a deal until at least 2009, and the small community size is part of why the development is slow. I'll be convinced when I see more counters used effectively against Falco and I see how the character can/will respond.

 

[ruhtraeel]

lol, so much drama.. controller johns are lame..just don't enter if your controller breaks or don't complain when you get wrecked.

Also, anyone who thinks they have more knowledge than PP but just don't play as well...(*shakes head)...you obviously don't spend enough time in PMs with PP.

also, PP is not that good at teaching from what I've seen. The last 5 times I've seen him give people tips he talked about all this high level stuff in the matchup and didn't give them any tips that actually related to the real reasons they were losing their matches. I mean I'm sure he'd be a great teacher if you are already a top 20 player...but otherwise...i'm pretty skeptical

From all the advice I've gotten from PP, it certainly is very specific, but I expect that. Like if I ask how do I play against Peach or Puff, I know full well that very specific cases will be covered, but the countless videos of PP that I have watched over and over again, looking at every unique movement and pausing/understanding why he did it, that's how I learn the generals of stuff, and I think that's how most people should learn it.

Same way I learn Fox vs Falco by watching Javi play, WD OoS after laser hits shield is so good


Kage = trash talking in hopes of getting a good-spirited intense match
Westballz = trash talking for entertainment

either way they aren't seriously hating on each other IMO



Also, PP why no shield pressure on Puff? Is U-smash OoS really that deadly?

 

[Cactuar]

today/tomorrow

prepare to throw down theories plz

fo sho.

you can call me up.

i'll lay in my bed, light some candles.

talk about super theory bros all night long.

no homo.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Also, PP why no shield pressure on Puff? Is U-smash OoS really that deadly?

Puff can't really handle shine grab since her jump is kinda slow, and WD OOS is stupid because of that crouch Puff does when she jumps so it makes hitting her with moves especially difficult. Adding in Usmash OOS and it's really not worth it haha.

fo sho.

you can call me up.

i'll lay in my bed, light some candles.

talk about super theory bros all night long.

no homo.

stop being so GOOD

 

[Divinokage]

From all the advice I've gotten from PP, it certainly is very specific, but I expect that. Like if I ask how do I play against Peach or Puff, I know full well that very specific cases will be covered, but the countless videos of PP that I have watched over and over again, looking at every unique movement and pausing/understanding why he did it, that's how I learn the generals of stuff, and I think that's how most people should learn it.

Same way I learn Fox vs Falco by watching Javi play, WD OoS after laser hits shield is so good


Kage = trash talking in hopes of getting a good-spirited intense match
Westballz = trash talking for entertainment

either way they aren't serious IMO



Also, PP why no shield pressure on Puff? Is U-smash OoS really that deadly?

I'm half serious with generally all my posts, That's simply how I play the game, whatever my mind thinks I can do willfully without limits.. that applies not just in game. I definitely mean what I say most of the time.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

see y'all at APEXXX

hoping to get in way too many falco dittos hahahahaha

 

[Divinokage]

MM Falco ditto!

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

okay HOMEBOY but after i take your birds money we're doing a real MM

 

[Divinokage]

Aren't all MMs real? That's why we MM! lol

 

[knightpraetor]

i didn't know anyone could actually jump out of shine grab unless the shine was stale. I remember watching a video with TAS where the marth attempts to jump and gets grabbed anyways.

 

[Vixen]

Aren't all MMs real? That's why we MM! lol

You using a fraudulent secondary isn't a real money match.

 

[Bones0]

i didn't know anyone could actually jump out of shine grab unless the shine was stale. I remember watching a video with TAS where the marth attempts to jump and gets grabbed anyways.

I believe a perfect shine grab lands on the opponent's 4th actionable frame out of stun. So Fox can shine OoS and his shine and Falco's grab will hit on the same frame (meaning shine wins cause it's invinc). Idk if rolling works since I think you're invinc starting frame 4, but then I've always heard that shinegrab beats even buffered rolls.

It's kind of irrelevant anyway. Shine is almost always staled, and even when it isn't, they're rarely going to do it frame perfect. Just buffer roll, or if you are Fox, shine OoS (Marth might see some positive results with up-B OoS).

 

[Wenbobular]

Or spotdodge shine

 

[Cactuar]

Fox doing a frame perfect shine oos vs Falco's shinegrab would essentially be the Fox guessing the Falco's shine timing.

 

[leffen]

You can buffer jump out of Falcos shine grab with Fox (I've started doing it, its really useful)

 

[Tee ay eye]

You can buffer jump out of Falcos shine grab

i am mindblown by the fact that i had never thought of this before

edit: actually, i don't think i'll ever start implementing it. still a neat idea, though

 

[Cactuar]

I was testing buffer jump oos as Fox vs Falco with PP at Zenith I think. The results weren't consistent enough for me to have a desire to work it into my gameplan as an option vs shinegrab, but that could be a result of PP's timings being very frame tight, and moreso when intentionally replicating the scenario.

 

[Deleted member]

it sounds like a skill that you could practice and get very good at that would make it helpful. i think we should go about learning it. i mean, if falco has tight timing he's going to get you anyway, might as well try something.

when will people realize how good shinegrab actually is?

 

[unknown522]

Fullhop n-air/drill oos vs falco is sometimes pretty good

Or even Fullhop then Falling u-air if they're trying to go ballistic on your shield

 

[Dr Peepee]

I was testing buffer jump oos as Fox vs Falco with PP at Zenith I think. The results weren't consistent enough for me to have a desire to work it into my gameplan as an option vs shinegrab, but that could be a result of PP's timings being very frame tight, and moreso when intentionally replicating the scenario.

I don't think the shine was stale when we tested it, but I'm not sure. And yeah I might have been faster because we were testing, but I don't recall feeling that way.

Maybe test it at various stalings in the future?

it sounds like a skill that you could practice and get very good at that would make it helpful. i think we should go about learning it. i mean, if falco has tight timing he's going to get you anyway, might as well try something.

when will people realize how good shinegrab actually is?

Interestingly enough, people still don't realize how good shield DI is either.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

or laser DI for that matter.

kevin we need to train for real...maybe after fall break...i wanna be ready for rom

 

[Bones0]

I've only ever used buffered jumps to do M2K's fthrow -> fair techchase on spacies asap. It mostly just sucks because you still have to time the jump if you want to SH (but it does give you a 4 frame window to predict the jump and let go of the C-stick, so it's technically better).

 

[Dr Peepee]

or laser DI for that matter.

kevin we need to train for real...maybe after fall break...i wanna be ready for rom

Let's plan, impromptu stuff is hard for me now!

 

[leffen]

pp me and ice had a long nice talk about you last weekend


we are proud of you but we see a stormy cloud approaching

beware

 

[JPOBS]

smashboards has been hot lately. Kage vs Wes, Leffen vs Armada, Mango nation, etc etc. Daaamn.

From what I notie though, kage usually gets blown up whenever he talks **** about how he's going to beat someone (like vs S2j, or vs KK). But when he just shuts his mouth and shows up, he usually gets top 5 or something.

That said, Wes is gonna poop on him cuz he jynxed himself lol

 

[leffen]

Is it just me or is the smash scene in much better shape now compared to the last 1-2 years? It may just be europe being 10x more active though.

This community really is incredible

 

[JPOBS]

I was actually thinking the scene is weakening this year. The nationals this year have been dwindling in numbers compared to 09-010. I mean, FC (although a great tournament) kinda bombed in terms of attendence. And what was Apex 2012, sub-200 right?

Seems like the big tournys this year have only been pushing 150-200 people, compared to when we were pushing 200+ on the regular a while back

 

[Bones0]

I feel like we've had more 100+ tourneys instead of just a few megatourneys though.

 

[Xyzz]

They probably get better, because we get to look at higher level of play, so we have a better foundation. Also, who gets worse? I mean, we practice and get better all of the time.

Well, that's what I think, when I think about it objectively. Subjectively ... people seem to get worse... though that's probbaly just because I still improve a good bit faster than most people, so I get to beat more players each time I go somewhere :D

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I was actually thinking the scene is weakening this year. The nationals this year have been dwindling in numbers compared to 09-010. I mean, FC (although a great tournament) kinda bombed in terms of attendence. And what was Apex 2012, sub-200 right?

Seems like the big tournys this year have only been pushing 150-200 people, compared to when we were pushing 200+ on the regular a while back

APEX 2012 was the 2nd biggest Melee tournament of all time. It had 318 entrants.

Melee-FC was smaller than many of us would have liked, but I'd say it did rather well for a Sunday-Monday-Tuesday tournament.

We are finishing this year and heading into the next with Big House, Kings of Cali, RoM5, Beast 3 (reschedule?), and APEX 2013.

The Melee scene is doing great. Regions are more strongly led than before (Xanadu in MD/VA, DBR in Norcal, UMSmash in Michigan, Team OXY in Socal, Pinkie Pie in Texas, etc), we've finally started to get our act together by providing consistent streams (this is very much thanks to VGbootcamp setting a high standard), and because of the community's growing average age, smashers have much more disposable income than in years past. Traveling to majors has become standardized and our tournament organizing has become much more refined. Some regions are lagging behind (see: TRISTATE TRISTATE TRISTATE...also, Atlantic South in general) but we're getting a loooot better.

2013 is going to be crazy. It has the potential to be the best or 2nd best (2007 will be hard to beat) year in Melee history.

And I'm not just talking out of my ***. I'm saying that from talking to all the other big TOs and asking about their plans for the new year. Its a good time to be a fan of Melee.

 

[JPOBS]

I actually forgot that Apex was so big. I dun goofed.

 

[Bones0]

Shoutouts to Peef because god damn has Melee streaming has come far, and I attribute a ridiculous amount of that success to him and the people who directly supported him.

 

[Habefiet]

Some regions are lagging behind (see: MINNESOTA MINNESOTA MINNESOTA...also, MINNESOTA in general) but we're getting a loooot better.

Fixed.

Shoutouts to streams in general. Between Wobbles commentary and high quality on two streams at once I definitely felt like I got the experience of this year's Big House.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah the atl south is...yeah i mean we do stuff.

 

[leffen]

Some regions obviously do worse, while others do better. In sweden, many players have moved to Stockholm, and many old and new have started to play, while the west coast, more or less just consists of Mikehaggar, Armada and Android.

 

[Dr Peepee]

pp me and ice had a long nice talk about you last weekend


we are proud of you but we see a stormy cloud approaching

beware

yeah well

u suk

(I dislike being vagued at)

yeah the atl south is...yeah i mean we do stuff.

lmao thanks chris

 

[leffen]

ey pp

the stuff is not fit for smashboards
its too real


also

how do you think fox's laser should be used?

I wrote this earlier today:

I really want to develop my laser game. When I think about staying back and just lasering, it really seems that on paper it isn't that good. You're making yourself vulnerable for a tiny amounts of percent, while often risking getting 0 to deathed aaand you give up stage control.

Yet, in practice, it works incredibly well. I have a couple of theories on why, and I'd like to hear your guys opinion. I try to liken its useage to Ryus fireballs in SFIV. One guideline you have in SFIV is to not use his fireballs while a full screen away, since that makes it very easy to react to the fact that he is shooting his projectile and they can then proceed to take free space from it.
So what I've been thinking of using the same theory for Fox's lasers.

Your best range use lasers at is where they cannot really attack you without first having to gain space (this range is different for every matchup obviously).
If they try to gain space on you, they're at risk of getting sh/fh naired, so if you predict when they try to move in on you, you get a free hit. If this fails and you laser as they move in on you, should still have enough space to put them in a mixup where you can try to counter their approach by for example using dash away dash back grab, utilt (against aerial approaches), cc, fh/sh bair or you could, alternatively, give up some space and set up to get back into the range where you want to be.

 

[Dr Peepee]

fb me then?

yeah okay, well first of all I don't necessarily think you can totally compare Fox's full screen laser to Ryu's fireball. The recovery time from a laser is pretty quick, and you can move while doing it so it can be way safer plus it's faster than a fireball so harder to dodge. The thing about projectiles is their intent, which is to make the other person approach or control their approach angle to make your defense game easier. In general, I tend to stray from comparisons to other fighting games when speaking of smash to other smashers partly because of their background and partly because I only watch the games sometimes and don't play them too much(even with your reading of their theory it's not the same to me without a personal application).

I see you wrote in your last paragraph about my next point, so I'll skip that. I'll just tack on that lasering from full screen changes how the opponent behaves from closer range lasering because of how much more willing it tends to make people to commit and stay in a mindset of commitment afterward.



I'm just gonna go into my own BS now instead of responding to the rest of your stuff(what I normally do) because I was thinking about Fox laser some and play with it once in a while and it really changes how people fight you.


Something about doing non-standard things freaks people out if you're playing well, especially if you have them conditioned pretty solidly/your other mixups have proven effective. Mango basically did this to M2K initially and told people in a podcast he did, saying "just do weird stuff and he doesn't know what to do."

Basically, not DD'ing/platform camping tends to throw people off. Instinct tends to take over as people are getting over the shock of "wtf he's lasering me" and it tends to keep them geared towards approaching you. Since you know their reaction to your laser, you can obviously begin playing with the spacing and timing of your lasers to get funny reactions from people. Suppose you laser in that spacing you described after 2 long dashes, and then next time you Nair after 2 long dashes. That's freaking dumb but I bet it works sometimes LOL.

Better yet, these lasers can control/change up momentum. Suppose you're aggroing someone and you have them boxed in/on a platform running away, and then you just start lasering. That is also confusing and weird, but I bet it messes with people because no one expects you to just shift momentum like that, and then they're still flustered as they realize they're taking % and you have advantage and then you can carry on from there.

Lasers even stun shields WHY don't people mess with that omfg Fox is so good

Okay I realized where I was going and decided to end here lmao you get the idea.