I can always come down to MD/VA if you don't feel satisfied with their anti-ganon game.
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
unknown522
Some guy
Cactus no! It's a trap!!
D
Deleted member
Guest
What are some of these subtleties?
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
DIing toward platforms so you can edgecancel off the edges is something I don't think many people are aware of / try to do
Not teching on platforms so you slide off is also something people don't do even if they DI it right
Not teching on platforms so you slide off is also something people don't do even if they DI it right
stabbedbyanipple
Smash Master
What he described to me was mostly getting out of the low percent dair shine combos that lead into really painful stuff.
At low percent you jump into the dair approach and then you get Daired into the ground and can shine before they can shine. I think zhu showed me this a long time ago but I never thought anyone could do this consistently until I realized Wes does like every time lol
Also you DI up on the Dair and once the shine connect you fly too high for another dair and they have to follow up with something sub-optimal. Actually, that's what he Falcons should do, I forget if that's what Falco should do. You might want to DI away on the Dair, it was a couple days ago haha
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
i always have fun playing you cactuar. i hope you plan to go to rom so we can play again.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
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- 26,559
The fact that you're posting this in a Falco thread is hilarious.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Yeah, because matches with Falco always take forever. 
Stevo
Smash Champion
all i want to do is fight him but he keeps hitting me with attacks
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
No, because matches with falco tend to take as long as the falco wants it to take.Yeah, because matches with Falco always take forever.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I actually think campy Falco has been obsoleted by---
Oh wait this is Ganon boards
sucks to be you
Oh wait this is Ganon boards
sucks to be you
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Hell no, if your mind is ridiculous.. you can set the pace of any matches depending how strong you are. Your character doesn't matter that much when you can easily outplay anyone.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I don't see how. Slow-playing Falco just doesn't work imo. There are times he needs to be patient and times where it can benefit to hang back, but it's always like a split second, and then he's back in the fray. He sucks at playing keep away with pretty much everyone.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Yeah, imo, campy Falco = free win. If he's really not going to take advantage of his lasers/super combos by staying away from me, that gives me room to lock him down/take stage/death combo him.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
better player certainly sets the pace.
i guess i'm just of the opinion that falco can retreat and be safe as well as almost anyone in the cast. i guess that's not true in other people's eyes.
edit: bones i just don't see what FORCES you to get "back in the fray" other than people running at you i guess.
i guess i'm just of the opinion that falco can retreat and be safe as well as almost anyone in the cast. i guess that's not true in other people's eyes.
edit: bones i just don't see what FORCES you to get "back in the fray" other than people running at you i guess.
when I go home and play twitch again I should try to camp him and see how it goes.
anyway, camping under a platform and abusing FH(aka Dair) would make Falco pretty hard to get in on, especially combined with solid anti approaches like Ftilt and Bair. mastering bthrow gimps could also be pretty handy there.
I'd still like to see it attempted at a solid level before dismissing the idea, but I'd also enjoy BS'ing about it here. =p
anyway, camping under a platform and abusing FH(aka Dair) would make Falco pretty hard to get in on, especially combined with solid anti approaches like Ftilt and Bair. mastering bthrow gimps could also be pretty handy there.
I'd still like to see it attempted at a solid level before dismissing the idea, but I'd also enjoy BS'ing about it here. =p
Bones0
Smash Legend
I just think Falco sucks in neutral. I think the only reason anyone would disagree with this is because of lasers, but I wouldn't even consider most situations with lasers out as neutral. It's more like matches with Falco constantly swap between in Falco's favor (when the laser is out), and in the opponent's favor (beginning right as Falco lands and continuing through the SH of the next laser). Lasers help him put the opponent on the defensive so he can abuse his good offense, but his defense is significantly worse. He can't abuse DD/pivot grab like most of the top tiers (the number of cheese kills you see Fox/Marth/Falcon/Sheik players getting off of simple DD grab setups is ridiculous, even at top level with pro spacing). His CC isn't too great because he's not that heavy and falls over easily. Arguably most important, he is combo food with a ****ty recovery once he loses his DJ.
And yes, Falco can laser while running away, but he's too slow to do it like Fox can. Running away and lasering as Fox works because of his speed. He can prolong neutral and get a bit of extra %, and then when he feels like he's pushing his luck he can go for an approach. He can be much more picking because he can run circles around most characters. Pretty much everyone except Ganon and Peach can just steamroll over Falco if he just continues to RSHL away from them. Peach can just float and/or pull a turnip. Ganon is slower so he has to just close down the gap, but it doesn't take long since all of his moves trap Falco really well at the ledge, and worst case scenario is he takes a few % from lasers that are impossible to capitalize on. It's very rare to see Falco players RSHL, and then dash back in with a successful approach. Most of the time it does happen is because the opponent panicked, held shield, and got grabbed.
So basically running away as Falco is high risk, low reward, which is why he has to constantly be engaging the opponent directly. I also think that's why he's as uncommon as he is at the top level despite having such a large player base. He requires constant approaching, but it's hard to do it consistently, and once he does make a mistake, he pays for it hard. Out of the top Falco players, we have Mango who is known for shield pressure and never getting grabbed, and PP who is known for controlling the center so he never has to fight from a defensive position. Once he gets in, he just systematically prevents his opponent from regaining neutral so he doesn't have to do another cold approach. This is another thing that's really hard at anything below top level. One of the key differences between matches of mid-level players compared to top-level players is the number of times neutral is reestablished. If you have two bad players, they're constantly losing momentum, dropping combos, and letting their opponent recover. At the top level this becomes less and less common.
This is all based on my own experience and what I notice in matches with Mango and PP, so maybe I'm just pulling too many conclusions as a result of my own unrefined play style.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA2s7ze0pjM&feature=player_detailpage#t=492s
Chops kinda uses some of that strategy here to mixed results, just doesn't take very good advantage of some of his opportunities. Still kinda interesting as from the video it looks like it could be a viable strategy if maybe refined a bit more.
You ever retreated with a Bair of some kind into Uptilt? That junk hits almost every character in the game lol and if it doesn't work then laser instead. Retreating isn't impossible, and you neglect the FH.
Falco gets the stun advantage on lasers as a trade-off for letting them take longer to come out. It's an interesting system.
The reason RSHL to approach doesn't work is no one gets the PS on that so they stop and then Falco looks dumb trying to approach from an inadequate spacing. The opponent is thrown into backwards momentum so of course they will be prepared to counter his following attack.
Falco has more rep at the top than any other character....that's why everyone hates him LMAO. His metagame got pushed farther than everyone else's and catching up is a pain.
Everything in this game is hard. Falco doesn't require constant anything except focus but that's universal. His bigger focus goes into seeing opponent reactions to lasers and planning laser strategies in advance....it's extremely fun if you have a good opponent that can deal with lasers(<3 twitch).
Controlling the center is for far more than not fighting defensively. Heck, some people said I still played defensively even when I held center. Some people probably still think it. Point isn't about that, it's about center stage giving me the most options, the best ways to abuse my character's controlling powers, and the most automatic threat without executing anything.
Mango breaks my approaches constantly with FHs and resets to near-neutral or full neutral.....
You seem more interested in proving your point than thinking from all angles, but I can tell you put in work on this post so it's still a fun read.
additionally, I don't think Falco sucks at neutral. I think he is capable of doing plenty with varied laser spacing, DDs to set up those laser spacings and Bairs, and FHs/RSHLs to retreat unless he situates Utilts well. Approaching is possible because lasers help mitigate mobility issues and his moves are constant and fairly big. The defense would work for pretty much the same reason, but you'd need chops-style laser variation to be tricky enough to force opponent commitment/get them where you could get a quick attack on them.
which, funnily enough, brings me to....
You ever watch Chops vs IHSB? Another very good example of this style of play!
Lambchops knows Fox is harrrd to touch on the top plat of BF especially, so he stays safe under the side platform. It does make Falco feel extremely confined admittedly, but he shouldn't stay in one place and shoot, that is pointless and should make one feel confined. Moving under the platform and occasionally double lasering high is crucial, as well as the occasional attack to force the opponent to act. It's just not a typical way to play Falco, that doesn't make it wrong. Heck, you could probably vary this strategy to some extent and move along the middle of the stage to provoke fox before attacking or getting under either side platform again or FH shine wavelanding or whatever.
Good discussion thus far, I've always enjoyed this topic. It's nice to flesh it out a little more now that people aren't QUITE as skeptical about it now. =p
Mew2King
King of the Mews
that's cuz he's the BEST character, and his metagame can keep evolving because your moves all combo into each other and risk/reward ratios for most top level strategies are guessing games in falco's favor
unknown522
Some guy
A lot of people camp under platforms. A lot of them don't realize and have this delusion of being aggressive.
Edit: also black chris knows what's up
Edit: also black chris knows what's up
Little England
Smash Master
Let's talk about this. Is there a guaranteed way to kill spacies with bthrow? I usually mixup between angled ftilt, (shine) Dj dair, sh dair and just waiting for the illusion/upB and responding to that. A long time ago DEHF told me spacies should die off of bthrow every time but I don't see how. What are some other good options after bthrow against other characters?
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
DEHF clearly doesn't know about shortening if he thinks Bthrow is a guaranteed kill <_<...
The mixup of sweetspot shorten, full jump back illusion, fall -> DJ sweetspot already makes it pretty hard because nothing onstage will hit properly sweetspotted things, but prematurely grabbing the ledge means you can't adequately cover Up-bs / instant illusions without guessing while STILL having to deal with shortens (they're broken)
The mixup of sweetspot shorten, full jump back illusion, fall -> DJ sweetspot already makes it pretty hard because nothing onstage will hit properly sweetspotted things, but prematurely grabbing the ledge means you can't adequately cover Up-bs / instant illusions without guessing while STILL having to deal with shortens (they're broken)
stabbedbyanipple
Smash Master
I was gonna make a post of some of my throw shenanigans but then I realized they're almost all off Fthrow lolLet's talk about this. Is there a guaranteed way to kill spacies with bthrow? I usually mixup between angled ftilt, (shine) Dj dair, sh dair and just waiting for the illusion/upB and responding to that. A long time ago DEHF told me spacies should die off of bthrow every time but I don't see how. What are some other good options after bthrow against other characters?
I could just be having a brain fart, but the opportunity to bthrow spacies off the stage doesn't seem like it happens very often; unless you shield grab them (but I know from experience most falcos don't shield grab vs another spacie), and maybe LHDL /WD from ledge into grab
Are there other practical ways I'm not remembering?
Also, my ****ing favorite thing to do after a bthrow that they don't di super far away; is to go after them with short hop nair, cuz it'll either kill them outright or send them far enough to where you can get back first and get an EZ edgeguard. It also catches almost all their options
unknown522
Some guy
There's several ways to grab a spacie at the edge to b-throw them.
Watch videos
Watch videos
Ugh I'm so rusty at any mix of spacies MUs... need to work on it.
Aka play 4 hours a day again. Nooooo.
Aka play 4 hours a day again. Nooooo.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
4 hours only? Weak!!!
But Kage.. this is why you're good. And I'm... well... LOL
Van.
Smash Ace
i got a new shiz video for you guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4QezTEtsd4&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4QezTEtsd4&feature=player_embedded
Bones0
Smash Legend
That pretty much proves he's washed up.
quoting this to let you know I am not necessarily ignoring you so much as avoiding what I feel will be unproductive discussion
agreed, at least in part. many falcos will camp there until they feel safe or hit confirm a laser.A lot of people camp under platforms. A lot of them don't realize and have this delusion of being aggressive.
Edit: also black chris knows what's up
Hardly anything in Melee is guaranteed.Let's talk about this. Is there a guaranteed way to kill spacies with bthrow? I usually mixup between angled ftilt, (shine) Dj dair, sh dair and just waiting for the illusion/upB and responding to that. A long time ago DEHF told me spacies should die off of bthrow every time but I don't see how. What are some other good options after bthrow against other characters?
A lot of this will depend on how the opponent DIs the throw and the lasers(leaving percent out for now). I have pretty good success DI/SDI'ing up on the throw and lasers if I can react in time, as an example.
Ftilt catches immediate jumps(especially if they don't DI out or up), FH Bair can catch them DI'ing up usually, and then you have to deal with various shine stall/DJ/walljump/jump back options differently for each spacie. Dair in place vs SH offstage Dair can cover most of this stuff though(especially with NTSC Dair woo).
I dunno I always mean to experiment with this stuff more and just never do. I'll put it on the list and try it out with some guys I'm training.
thank goodness I got out before it started
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
The future... is here.
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
Or like stab said, jump into the nair and shine if you're low % or if you get hit by the weak part.
The fuuuuuuuuuutureee
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
There's no such thing as DIing up, I thought people knew this already ~_~
Although since shine doesn't send you straight up, I guess you can slightly DI to go straight up, which I guess could be considered "DIing up"
Not DIng stuff at all is pretty the **** sometimes though
Although since shine doesn't send you straight up, I guess you can slightly DI to go straight up, which I guess could be considered "DIing up"
Not DIng stuff at all is pretty the **** sometimes though
In this scenario, SDI would be significant enough to accomplish what he's attempting. SDIing up while stuck in a lower percent combo would be significant given the total amount of space you travel.
I should abuse weak hitboxes more, but I don't think Falco can do that very well past 30-40%ish.
Good look.