PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[unknown522]

D-smashes.....so....obvious.....brain...hurts....

But yeah, jump over doh's d-smashes man. He does it after like every aerial. Then come down and d-air him like 6 times. Also, Try not to shield vs him. It's getting you ***** especially when you don't need to shield. If you feel that you need to take a defensive option, then I suggest roll. If you can though, just dash away, or jump to a platform.

Also laser him out of his float if you can. Either when he's coming down with an aerial. Or shoot him mid-float. Or even try to prevent the float by shooting mid-height lasers when he's grounded and you think he's gonna jump.

DDing so that you can bait/space around his aerials as he's trying to come down from float. You may be able to grab on some of the whiffs

Grab when he's shielding if you can. Even if you can't get a combo, try to threaten him with your high jumps. B-air or something.

Platforming to get him to either come up after you, or to get around the float, or ground attacks.

With both fox and falco, try not to d-air him when he's in mid-float, cuz you'll get d-smashed probably (at percents where falco's d-air wont knock over [so like below 42% or something before the hit]). His like n-air or weak reverse b-air or something and try to combo that into shine.

I'm talking about with falco obviously for most stuff.

Edit: oh yeah. The general use of u-tilt.

 

[Jim Morrison]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KKwB3jtDYA&feature=related#t=0m48s

Check out the forward tilt on SFAT's shield. How good is that ****? Is it punishable when spaced very well like that? I honestly have no clue what I should/would do as Fox if that happened to me.

SFAT does the same at 3:00 and gets Mango with it. I want to know if I missed the memo on how good this really is.

 

[Xyzz]

Ftilt is somewhere around -15, so wd oos -> grab is probably out of the question and aerial responses are incredibly tight (you would have to hit him while rising and well if he gets a shield out in time we all know how that would end)... I think the best idea is just wd oos backwards and work from there, or if the situation permits it you could just do what SFAT probably attempted and screwed up (jump -> waveland onto the side platform).

 

[Dr Peepee]

Grounded shine OoS is easy, into SH or FH

Why is WD forward/backward out of grounded shine OoS so hard

Because you haven't practiced it/planned it out yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KKwB3jtDYA&feature=related#t=0m48s

Check out the forward tilt on SFAT's shield. How good is that ****? Is it punishable when spaced very well like that? I honestly have no clue what I should/would do as Fox if that happened to me.

SFAT does the same at 3:00 and gets Mango with it. I want to know if I missed the memo on how good this really is.

Ftilt is an amazing poke. This is especially true when you're fighting not Marth(and maybe Sheik). Pokes get even better by the edge because people can't just reset when you use them then.

 

[ruhtraeel]

Because you haven't practiced it/planned it out yet?

Is it something that would be incredibly useful if nearly perfected

I claw the controller to do this, like my doubleshines, by moving my index from Z to Y, does this sacrifice anything

 

[Dark Hart]

1. Establish a threat of laser/retreating Bair.

2. Laser from safe/appropriate distances to help establish that threat.

3. Dash instead of laser.

4. Ask questions for more in-depth stuff. That question's too vague and I don't wanna write on this all day when I have old stuff to catch up on lol.

I may just be more specific when we talk next, but your first 3 bullets show you understood what I asking a lot more than Mr. Temprence Brennan

 

[Dr Peepee]

Is it something that would be incredibly useful if nearly perfected

I claw the controller to do this, like my doubleshines, by moving my index from Z to Y, does this sacrifice anything

It would make your game better. Falco requires a lot of tech skill so I couldn't tell you whether you should devote your time to that more than, say, Isai Drop lasers.

I may just be more specific when we talk next, but your first 3 bullets show you understood what I asking a lot more than Mr. Temprence Brennan

well....okay then!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Spacies have very solid f-tilts.

 

[Bones0]

Stuff

Thanks, I'll reread this when I get a chance to rewatch my vids.

Spacies have very solid f-tilts.

What could you possibly know about ftilts?! You... you... you SHEIK main!!!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hilariously f-tilt is one of the moves I was worst with as Sheik for a very long time.

 

[ruhtraeel]

It would make your game better. Falco requires a lot of tech skill so I couldn't tell you whether you should devote your time to that more than, say, Isai Drop lasers.

I never really understood Isai drop lasers... can't you just flick the control stick down and press B really fast? Or is that what an Isai drop laser is? I never really had trouble just dropping down with a laser.

 

[Bones0]

You have to walk forward before pressing down.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

hey guys what are the advantages/disadvantages of FoD/FD/DL64 vs peach. I can never decide which of those stages I like the least vs peach lol

FoD feels alright most the time, but when you mess up; the small stage and low platform height seem to lend themselves to getting killed super early by wack *** peach combos

Final has chaingrabs and no platforms to retreat to obv., can't think of advantages other than it gives you room to do stuff and it's simple

Dreamland has platforms and gives you a ton of room to work with which i like vs peach but sometimes killing her seems like an insurmountable task haha

 

[ShroudedOne]

I would say, as a Peach, that FD is by far the WORST for Falco. You don't need to take 80+ percent from grabs when you can avoid it. Her combos there are also really good, and the edgeguarding...ugh.

FoD can be good for Falco, cause the low platforms let him work a lot more utilts, which is good vs her. And his dair combos are really brutal. The biggest thing is not getting caught underneath a low platform.

DL is...ok, I guess? You have room, but you don't kill her until past 150% (this is assuming good DI from the Peach), unless you get a lucky uair, or a clutch dair.

Imo, FoD > DL >>>>>>>>>>>>>> FD

 

[Bones0]

Someone asked in the Fox forums why I struck to DL vs. DoH:

I struck DL because she's just too hard to combo and kill, and I know DoH is the better player so a long first match would suck because not only is a longer match making it harder for me to upset him game 1, but he has all that time to figure out my play style better. I struck FD because of chain grabs, and I suck at dealing with turnips on that stage. BF has bigger side blastzones and no ledge wall for recovery.

Even though FoD has a large ceiling, I just focus on side-KOs instead. I honestly prefer killing with easy tech chase dsmashes/fsmashes at absurdly low %s rather than all of the complex ceiling KOs where you have to shine them off the top and hope they don't DI, and once they get to a certain % you have to just get an usmash or dtilt somehow anyway. I also think FoD messes with her float game a lot. Lasers from side plats are the perfect height for hitting her out of float. Simply being on side plats threaten her because it makes it feel like she's floating on ground level where she basically has to predict with her FC aerials instead of staying above your head and reacting to spacing before committing. I get hit by a few dsmashes because of low plats, but at the same time, I probably would have jumped into them the same way on BF anyway. Being patient was the real reason I got hit; low plats just made it look uglier. lol

 

[unknown522]

DL is not bad

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Idk I would have struck to DL. Peach loses a lot of stage control due to her speed (and lack of range on her burst speed aka dash attack). You're just gonna dair->dair her every stock so who cares if she is gonna "live" a little longer

 

[Dr Peepee]

hey guys what are the advantages/disadvantages of FoD/FD/DL64 vs peach. I can never decide which of those stages I like the least vs peach lol

FoD feels alright most the time, but when you mess up; the small stage and low platform height seem to lend themselves to getting killed super early by wack *** peach combos

Final has chaingrabs and no platforms to retreat to obv., can't think of advantages other than it gives you room to do stuff and it's simple

Dreamland has platforms and gives you a ton of room to work with which i like vs peach but sometimes killing her seems like an insurmountable task haha

FoD is great for combos, bad for dying to random hits/Dsmash. You also can't escape well there. Side kills are easier there than the other stages though. Oh and your tilts and Bair can hit Peach through the platforms so the advantages can go both ways. It's a funny level for the matchup.

FD is cool if you have a good tech chase game and can get out of pressure without platforms. Killing is still kinda hard to set up and you die sooner off a grab than you would anywhere else.

DL sucks for any killing that is not Dairs(which can be hard to set up without a combo at 100%+ so life gets hard then) but you get free escapes at neutral and lots of laser room. Combos involving platforms are a little easier/harder depending on how you view it. It's harder to DI to the edge of the platform but she gets a little more tech roll space.


That's pretty much how I view it. I think Falco can fight Peach anywhere but I don't really think he prefers FD lol.

 

[bolt.]

Whose get up attacks can falco sh dair/nair over?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

everyone but ganon/cf probably


edit- and sheiks up kick one

edit2- and dk's cause hes ****ing big

 

[bolt.]

everyone but ganon/cf probably


edit- and sheiks up kick one

edit2- and dk's cause hes ****ing big

How about marth? I thought it didn't work on marth.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ive done it on marth i think

 

[Bones0]

You can jump over most GUAs if you cross them up properly. You just stand on the late hit side then as soon as they do the early hit, jump over them onto the side they just attacked and the late hit will whiff in the area you just jumped from.

That being said, if you don't do a crossup, you can't jump over Marth's. Maybe I'll test all of them when I get a chance, but it'll just take forever. :/

 

[Divinokage]

That's why you can just FH over all get up attacks if you expect it I guess?

 

[Xyzz]

What's wrong with just shielding them, and then dair-ing oos?
Don't you have to call / react to the GUA anyways if you cross them up?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I like to be able to completely disrespect my opponent's space when I play falco

 

[Dr Peepee]

I didn't think you could get over the spacie arm swings on GUAs but I haven't tested it either.

Standing on one side then crossing up is awfully complicated. I'd rather shield and punish or CC and punish most GUAs anyway. Forcing the GUAs to happen when the opponent isn't right by the edge is more interesting for me to consider personally.

 

[Bones0]

That's why you can just FH over all get up attacks if you expect it I guess?

Falco's FH is too big. They get their shield up in time. You can do a quick DJ instead, but whether you do a FH or DJ, them simply waiting until you're about to land before doing something forces you into an awkward position.

What's wrong with just shielding them, and then dair-ing oos?
Don't you have to call / react to the GUA anyways if you cross them up?

Shielding is great if you just want to react. You don't have to react to GUA because if you just cross them up and dair as they're laying on the ground, you sort of hit them before their GUA finishes so it doubles as a way of covering regular getup (since it's so fast and shielding + dair OoS often won't hit).

I didn't think you could get over the spacie arm swings on GUAs but I haven't tested it either.

Standing on one side then crossing up is awfully complicated. I'd rather shield and punish or CC and punish most GUAs anyway. Forcing the GUAs to happen when the opponent isn't right by the edge is more interesting for me to consider personally.

It's not a matter of getting over it, but rather behind it. Most GUAs don't hit right in the middle. I think the hitbox threads have them if you want to check each one.

 

[Warhawk]

You can also do what Mango does and just crouch cancel the get-up attack and then do whatever if you're at a decent percent and not completely confident in being able to call the get-up attack.

 

[bolt.]

I was thinking it would be good to know if you're decently far away and think your opponent is either going to GUA or just get up. That way you can cover both options without having to laser.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I would think you'd still get hit by GUAs even without no hitbox in the middle just because of how big the characters are....unless you mean you can move from one side to the other easily because there's no middle hitbox. That doesn't feel like it would work to me but I'll test it.

 

[unknown522]

You can do that. I've seen it happen/done it myself.

Not recommended at all

 

[Dr Peepee]

oh.....

guess I'll stick to reacting to it

 

[Mahone]

this is like 10 pages late, but no, i meant that staling doesnt effect the shieldstun, since it uses the base damage of the move

i dont have any backing except that sypherpheonix said it and hes never been wrong about anything technical...

just test it, it shouldnt me that hard, i would, but im lazy and trust him... although now thinking about, i do feel like ur right... maybe i misuderstood what he was saying


does huggin the wall with firefox gain height?
what can u NOT do out of tumble?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well KK said it reduces shield stun but I don't know how to test it so......


I don't think hugging helps up-B gain height, but again never really thought about it.

You can't airdodge out of tumble and your aerial mobility is different I think(not sure if higher or lower horizontally).

 

[ShroudedOne]

I want to say that aerial mobility while in tumble is higher...not 100% sure, however. Sveet is lurking, though.

 

[Bones0]

Wall riding does not make you go higher. I distinctly remember someone testing it with a Wavebird and two characters at once.


Airdodging is the only thing you can't do out of tumble. Except maybe grapple with Link, YL, and Samus, but I think they can. I don't think it affects aerial mobility. If it did affect it, the habit most people have of straightening out of tumble by attacking or jumping would have a significant impact on recoveries. If anything you might have less mobility in tumble than when straightened up. I remember testing this with Jiggs on Hyrule or something, but I don't remember the result.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I seem to recall the opposite about staling and shield stun, but staling doesnt happen in debug menu so testing it would be weird (count frames without frame advance... uhh).

Hugging the wall doesn't gain height. Touching the wall while going straight up will make you turn around, though.

You can't airdodge out of tumble. One of the biggest differences between melee and brawl.

 

[Bones0]

I don't see how it's that big of a difference. You can simply wiggle out and then air dodge. The reason airdodging seems so FUBAR in barlw is because you get out of stun a million times sooner, you can't direct your airdodge, and your momentum doesn't halt midair.

 

[Deleted member]

kevin

when can we start writing?