PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Winston]

I would recommend shine grabbing vs. every character. The trick is when to do it, and I mostly find myself doing it when I know they have a safe OoS option. For instance, if you are mid-stage vs. Marth, he's probably going to just WD OoS after the shine since you need a very precise timing with nair/dair in order to hit his jumpcrouch. So instead of letting him just reset the situation or try to waveshine and chase him down, I'd rather just shinegrab and work off of that. When I have Marth pinned at the ledge, especially when he's at higher %s, I almost never shine grab because I am much more likely to shield poke or hit him as he tries to cross me up to the center of the stage. The safest option he has is to just WD back onto the ledge, which is just a horrible position for him.

That's my general take on when to shine-grab, but I'm curious what other reasons people have for doing it when they do.

I think shinegrabbing is pretty good when Marth is near the edge as long as he's at mid-high percent at least, since fthrowing him creates a free edgeguard opportunity, and even if he makes it back to the edge he's in the bad position you talked about. Your reasons for not shinegrabbing by the edge are valid too, I just think that it still makes sense to do both.

Another thing to note is in your first situation, where you think he's very likely to wd oos away from you, going for the read on that can be an extremely high EV play. If you wd towards him out of the shine really fast and shine again, you'll catch his wd away with a shine.

 

[xXx-NoobKing-xXx]

Westballz... DISCUSS

 

[Deleted member]

Westballz... DISCUSS

autopilot never looked so pretty?

what is there to discuss?

 

[Bones0]

I think shinegrabbing is pretty good when Marth is near the edge as long as he's at mid-high percent at least, since fthrowing him creates a free edgeguard opportunity, and even if he makes it back to the edge he's in the bad position you talked about. Your reasons for not shinegrabbing by the edge are valid too, I just think that it still makes sense to do both.

Another thing to note is in your first situation, where you think he's very likely to wd oos away from you, going for the read on that can be an extremely high EV play. If you wd towards him out of the shine really fast and shine again, you'll catch his wd away with a shine.

I agree with you on the shinegrab. I think I do occasionally throw in a shinegrab so I can fthrow him.

What do you mean by high EV play? I'll have to try waveshining more during pressure. I actually wrote down a note to myself to do it and still haven't. >.<

Westballz... DISCUSS

He should learn to doubleshine properly.

 

[Mahone]

i think shinegrabbing is pretty good when marth is near the edge as long as he's at mid-high percent at least, since fthrowing him creates a free edgeguard opportunity, and even if he makes it back to the edge he's in the bad position you talked about. Your reasons for not shinegrabbing by the edge are valid too, i just think that it still makes sense to do both.

Another thing to note is in your first situation, where you think he's very likely to wd oos away from you, going for the read on that can be an extremely high ev play. If you wd towards him out of the shine really fast and shine again, you'll catch his wd away with a shine.

winstonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

 

[Wenbobular]

What do you mean by high EV play? I'll have to try waveshining more during pressure. I actually wrote down a note to myself to do it and still haven't. >.<

If you guess right you get a clean hit and should be able to combo mad good from there

 

[Seartu]

What do you mean by high EV play?

I think he's using a poker/statistical term, "Expected Value." It doesn't work perfectly in this situation but essentially low risk, high reward situation would have a high EV.

 

[Xyzz]

I think high EV is a fine term here. Plays can be risky and still be high EV if the expected outcome is good enough. It's just the sum of all possible outcomes multiplied by their probabilities after all.

So if Winston estimates his chances of catching the wd oos are good, because he conditioned his opponent to do it (or he reads it / whatever) and is confident the shine will end in a stock ending combo it might be a high EV move, despite the risk of being grabbed by Marth for doing a waveshine on his shield

 

[Dr Peepee]

Out of curiosity, do you shine then decide to grab or WD on reaction, or do you know which one you are going to do before you even do it

Is it even possible to react

Sometimes I react, usually I commit to the option beforehand. Kind of depends on the situation and details such as conditioning, stage control, and momentum.

 

[Wenbobular]

<_< .... I don't think it's possible to choose whether or not to shinegrab or wavedash on reaction .... that just like .... doesn't physically make sense

 

[oukd]

i don't see how that's possible under the premise you're shining their shield, but maybe if they did something a little bit before your shine comes out and you're reacting to that instead then maybe

but if that's the case you wouldn't be shining in the first place/if you did it would most likely be under premise of committing to shine somehow

or you're staying in shine for some janky reason and reacting out of them reacting to it badly. which sounds really weird

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Dr peepee does not physically make sense.

Just ask his girlfriend.

 

[~Tac~]

Dr peepee does not physically make sense.

Just ask his girlfriend.

ohgod.

<_< .... I don't think it's possible to choose whether or not to shinegrab or wavedash on reaction .... that just like .... doesn't physically make sense

Agreed, the decision out of shine is too quick(6-10 frames iirc). I couldn't see much 'reaction' being consistently possible outside of conditioning, spacing, etc. When shielded, anyway.

Would waveshining through them once if they hold their shield up provide more of a window? Given they're afraid to try and escape.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Reaction time is boosted if you're looking for a specific stimuli+heightened awareness+you've practiced the particular situation often. It's not foolproof of course but it can be doable if you see someone's shield move when you shine or "feel" they will try to attack or whatever.

Again, I said I usually predict, but if I am feeling confident they won't try to counterattack or am just feeling my momentum then my awareness is usually high enough that I can react in some form to their intentions.

 

[Bones0]

Does anyone know how fast the first hit of spacies' GUAs come out? (strongbad) I can consistently powershield them, so a well-practiced reaction time would probably be the first frame the GUA hits minus 1-4 frames (for the powershield window).

 

[Bl@ckChris]

I'm more interested in how soon after the shine u have to jump before u get stuck in it.

 

[Bones0]

Fox's unstaled shine has 4 frames of hitlag, so he has to wait 7 frames.
Falco's has 5 frames of hitlag, so he has to wait 8 frames.

So if PP can react to shine hitting, then he could also dodge grabs on reaction.

 

[Mahone]

Reaction time is boosted if you're looking for a specific stimuli+heightened awareness+you've practiced the particular situation often. It's not foolproof of course but it can be doable if you see someone's shield move when you shine or "feel" they will try to attack or whatever.

Again, I said I usually predict, but if I am feeling confident they won't try to counterattack or am just feeling my momentum then my awareness is usually high enough that I can react in some form to their intentions.

ya, i feel like ive reacted to shield and shinegrabbed before too... i think trained reaction time can be very low, so i think it is possible

 

[Wenbobular]

Reacting with shine is very different than doing the shine and then picking whether or not to shinegrab or wavedash out though ... you have to be like ... inputting your decision during Falco's jumpsquat / shine animation ...

 

[Mahone]

hmm, i guess ur right, when i think about it like that, it is impossible...

must be some subconscious cue im getting that lets me know they are going to continue to hold shield while im shining, am i psychic????

 

[Bones0]

No, they're just stuck in shield stun.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah, I was going to say that sometimes, when I FC fair a shield, I feel like they're going to stay in shield, so then I go for the grab, and that could be "reacting." But then I realized that FC aerials have years of shield stun, lol.

 

[EWC]

Reaction time varies ALOT depending on whether you're talking about a fixed response to a fixed stimulus at an unknown time (eg waiting to powershield a get up attack) or choosing your response to a variable stimulus at a known time (eg deciding whether to grab or wavedash after shine). The average for the first is somethine like .25 seconds or 15 frames for the first one, with lower limits at about .1 or 6 frames, see human benchmark or some other reaction time test for stats. Not sure about the other one, which is relevant for this.

 

[Wenbobular]

I think you just think you're reacting when you have a super good read on it

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, oftentimes people who wait in shield are also reacting so it's possible that you are reacting to them staying in shield faster than they react to you sitting there in shine. if they jump or try to wd out you have frame advantage on them so it's very likely that you will grab them even though technically you could not have reacted if they had truly planned to do something immediately out of the JC grab..instant roll away is pretty good vs shine grab, but in general playing reactively from shield is better for the defender so oftentimes they sit in shield too long and then the falco can react to them staying in shield and still get them a lot of the time cause of the frame advantage and because they may be waiting for you to do something out of the shine like dair or wd or Double shine etc.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Fox's unstaled shine has 4 frames of hitlag, so he has to wait 7 frames.
Falco's has 5 frames of hitlag, so he has to wait 8 frames.

So if PP can react to shine hitting, then he could also dodge grabs on reaction.

not how soon he CAN jump out of it, but the window for how late you can jump out of it before you kind of...can't.

basically, how slowly can you shinegrab?

 

[Tee ay eye]

I DONT KNOW WHY IM POSTING THIS HERE AND HELPING THE FALCO COMMUNITY, BUT HERE YOU GO

if you mess up the ledge WD a lot and end up doing the unviable, super ****ty high-jump onto the stage, it may be more than just an execution issue. WATCH THIS VIDEO SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddiyOoqAzio

also please show it to anyone else you know who you think can learn from it

 

[Squirt]

I DONT KNOW WHY IM POSTING THIS HERE AND HELPING THE FALCO COMMUNITY, BUT HERE YOU GO

if you mess up the ledge WD a lot and end up doing the unviable, super ****ty high-jump onto the stage, it may be more than just an execution issue. WATCH THIS VIDEO SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddiyOoqAzio

also please show it to anyone else you know who you think can learn from it

I found that very useful, thanks.

 

[Wenbobular]

I found it way too wordy
Please include in description

1. Press buttons in correct order
2. Wait 8 frames when you grab the ledge (4 if you're Link or some cheese)
3. Stick in neutral before attempting the drop

 

[crush]

iirc link gets 2 extra frames of invinc but has to wait 2 more frames when hhe grabs the ledge

 

[Vixen]

I have come to the conclusion that rolling 1000 times in a game is a good way to win.

 

[Strong Badam]

iirc link gets 2 extra frames of invinc but has to wait 2 more frames when hhe grabs the ledge

4 fewer

4 fewer.

 

[MattDotZeb]

So I have a pretty big match vs Sung in Pools R1 at Big House 2 this weekend.

Can anyone offer some Falco ditto tips?

 

[Max?]

Bair better than the other person. When you both laser at the same time, powershield his back and keep lasering. Make every bair count. Dair him sometimes to stuff.

Bair

 

[Dr Peepee]

So I have a pretty big match vs Sung in Pools R1 at Big House 2 this weekend.

Can anyone offer some Falco ditto tips?

Bair makes him respect you if he has a laser out, Dair is good for countering most of his other approaches if you're not turned around, Ftilt is a cool poke, double stick dair shines

 

[Vaccine]

What is a double stick dair shine?

 

[Vixen]

He's saying groundtech the opponents dairshine by crouch cancel teching.

C stick doesn't make enough of a difference to justify.

 

[Vaccine]

hmm.. i'm gonna have to mess around with that.

Thank You

 

[Bones0]

I assume using the C-stick would allow you to ASDI down while still DIing to the side. That's cool. I'll have to try that.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Bair makes him respect you if he has a laser out, Dair is good for countering most of his other approaches if you're not turned around, Ftilt is a cool poke, double stick dair shines

He's saying groundtech the opponents dairshine by crouch cancel teching.

C stick doesn't make enough of a difference to justify.

I assume using the C-stick would allow you to ASDI down while still DIing to the side. That's cool. I'll have to try that.

tbh it depends on what you're trying to accomplish

if you want to TECH the dair off the ground, then it's probably in your best interests to not do a true crouch cancel. if you do a true crouch cancel (you are actually in the crouch animation), it will reduce the knockback from the dair by 1/3, which might prevent the dair from knocking you down, although you MIIIIIGHT be able to punish the dair straight up.... i can't really see that working, though.

in that case, if you DO want to tech the dair:

easiest way by far would be to hold down before you get hit by a dair and then just try to time a tech properly when they hit you with the dair.

if you want to MAXIMIZE your ability to tech the dair and use double stick DI, then it would be in your best interests to hold down on the c-stick for the downwards ASDI and then hold down and in on the control stick to direct the trajectory of the dair in a more downwards angle.... but it probably wont matter since dair sends you down anyway.