PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Strong Badam]

Ledgehop.....................................

 

[Bones0]

So do you just think I'm messing up or do you just not know why it's harder? >_>

 

[Strong Badam]

I think it's in your head. There's no mechanical reason for what you're experiencing.

 

[Bones0]

Fine, I'll ask AJP.

Just got 12 out of 15 shine lands on an empty plat. 2 out of 15 vs. Bowser.

Guess it's in my head. >_>

 

[Dr Peepee]

What exactly do you mean by this?

Visual cues are what people see. They give clues to your next action and sometimes give people the things to wait for before reacting. When a lot of characters(like Peach/Sheik for example) see Falco shine their shield, they will Nair OOS asap in case Falco decides to delay his pressure/staled shine grab. They respond to the visual cue of the shine. If Falco doesn't shine there, then the opponent gets confused and usually gets stuck/picks a different cue to react to. Either way it is in one's advantage to master visual cues and how the opponent is responding to them.

Conditioning plays into this as well.

Consider also that spacing the jab in various ways will give similar but different visual cues to the opponent.

Being s2j is very hard when you're 1000x worse than him lol. I'm just tryna work my way up slowly.

One thing I've noticed is I find it hard to escape decent Falco pressure. They hit me, I try rolling or jumping away, but after that first hit I get hit by a bunch of 2-hit combo's because I just always seem to be in a bad spot. Though I actually think the reason behind this problem is beyond just escaping pressure, I just wanna know if there are any better options other than rolling or WD OOS. Interesting places where a random spot dodge could completely throw a Falco off. Things like that.

Apart from that, I have a hard time pressuring Falco. I can get off combos, but if I **** up once, I lose all momentum and get 0-deathed easy. Because Falco doesn't fear me, I can't get him in nearly as many bad situations as he can get me imo. How do you pressure down this bird?

Shield DI+stomp OOS to avoid some attacks/shines+FH OOS in addition to what you already listed.

Pressuring Falco is easy if you get him to shield. Use your movement+spacing to keep him afraid to shoot lasers and punish his hesitation/anxiety to attack.

What do you think of shine land > JC grab when people are shielding (or standing) on platforms?

Shielding=not so good if they can shield drop. Not sure how well that trick would work otherwise but I have a hard time doing it when I hit someone. Maybe if you space the shine past their shield and then grab it could be useful.

Is lasering into someone's shield into shine/tilt/smash/jab actually good and not just a gimmick that relies on your opponent not to expect it? I know it's been around for awhile but I rarely see it used sporadically.

For myself, I mostly use it vs marth when they're standing next to the ledge. The laser and the quick move afterward seems like it covers all of his options except if he dashes past you really early.

It is actually good as long as you don't do it just one/obvious ways.

You do mean right on top of them right? That's really good if so because then you can shine out of it every time as long as the laser hits the shield/body.

Going in hard with a laser in general is somewhat tough though. If you can master that ability you place a large amount of pressure on the opponent because you can grab/shine grab/attack then and those can only be guessed at from that range and not actually countered.

Whenever my shield gets jabbed, I always expect that I can do something to it right afterwards, but then I get shined. I really dislike it, cause I'm never expecting it (cause it's pretty unsafe), but it's fast enough to where it trips one up and they miss punishing it.

You could probably space jab in your shield pressure so that it couldn't be shield grabbed. Is spaced dair > spaced jab > turnaround utilt a thing, I wonder....

I've considered that last thing you said, but by that time people can jump OOS or if they shield DI'd away like intelligent people they'd be totally safe. Still, if you saw the shield DI you could catch them if you didn't Utilt after jab.

Pressure in Melee is really funny lol. I think jab to turnaround Utilt has some potential and it'll be an interesting challenge to figure out how useful it is.

kevin i'd like to see a comprehensive post about pressure. you've responded to people's inquiries about it but it might be good to collect everything into one spot. this will give you something to work on and it'll be a good post for discussion! =)

more specifically

- defining pressure/how you understand the concept of pressure
- opportunity cost and pressure (ie what am i giving up to mount more pressure)
- strengths/weaknesses of falco's pressure
- directions you've been considering with respect to addressing the problems existing in your own pressure game

using the power of cactuar to predict that max will make a post telling kevin to ignore my request and pre-emptively summarize kevin's post by saying something about the potency of a falco's pressure being based on how good he is at pressing down b, neutral b and l-cancel + ff + down cstick

hmmmmm maybe one day haha. I'll put it on the list of things to do.

I make everything better.

**

YESSSSSS YOUUUUU DOOOOOOOOO

OMG <3

you play a solved character. you laser into grab/shine/shinegrab and combo from there. your falco is as good as your neutral, first hit, combo, and defensive games are.

Falco FAQ:

Q: What should I do from a neutral position?

A: Maneuver yourself with lasers to set up an advantage.

Q: What do I do when I have a good position?

A: Hit them with down B or grab them.

Q: What do I do when I can't beat a specific strategy?

A: Shoot more lasers better until your problem resolves itself.

/thread

Isn't it kinda weird to say Melee isn't a solved game then suggest one of its characters is solved?

Each of your FAQ answers can be greatly improved upon for everyone playing Falco. The character is not solved imo.

Fine, I'll ask AJP.

Just got 12 out of 15 shine lands on an empty plat. 2 out of 15 vs. Bowser.

Guess it's in my head. >_>

I see this phenomenon as well.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

mango bashes on armadas pride all the time

yet armada still finds the time to defend mango's honor

THE TRUE CHAMPION

 

[Strong Badam]

I'd be interested in learning of a mechanic that affects shine landing w/ hitlag involved.

 

[Deleted member]

Isn't it kinda weird to say Melee isn't a solved game then suggest one of its characters is solved?

Each of your FAQ answers can be greatly improved upon for everyone playing Falco. The character is not solved imo.

melee isn't solved. of all the characters, i think falco is the most (correctly) understood.

if you don't think the character is solved, we can go into some gritty detail with it. i'll go as far down the rabbit hole as you're willing to go, chief.

we should talk about how to pin marth from neutral without risking a dash attack under your laser. that would actually have some merit in this thread, since marth's spam dash attack these days whether its a set-up or blind.

what i do is i dash/SH "at" marth but not in that horrible way that i say to never do, but far away enough where you're not actually committing to anything. aggressive movement behavior generally triggers marth to do 1 of 2 things:

1. dashdance
2. not dashdance

if they DD by reflex, i make it a point to try to laser him after the dash away but before he can both turn around and dash attack. when marth is facing backwards, his ground control and defensive options are much more limited so my rate of exchange is exceedingly favorable. for marth to deal with this properly, he has to admit that he was caught off guard, respect falco's advantage, and forfeit a part of the stage, but then his dashdance is much worse too. this circumvents both the risk from dash attack, but it also uses dashdancing against marth to limit the tactic and to reverse momentum on him.

if the opponent doesn't dashdance or dashdances poorly (same thing) you know you're in the clear to mash buttons at him and you don't have to actually play around what the character can do.

this is also a general idea of what i mean when i say that falco has "free stage control everywhere forever".

 

[unknown522]

mango bashes on armadas pride all the time

yet armada still finds the time to defend mango's honor

THE TRUE CHAMPION

comments like those make me hate the boards (I mean the YT post. Not you).

 

[Anand]

comments like those make me hate the boards (I mean the YT post. Not you).

TH3M4NROCKS or Armada?

 

[Bones0]

Shielding=not so good if they can shield drop. Not sure how well that trick would work otherwise but I have a hard time doing it when I hit someone. Maybe if you space the shine past their shield and then grab it could be useful.

Well if what Strong Bad said was correct, then platform canceling a shine-grab is the same speed as a regular shine-grab. So it would still true combo if your shine is unstaled.

I see this phenomenon as well.

I'd be interested in learning of a mechanic that affects shine landing w/ hitlag involved.

I think it has something to due with holding down. It seems like if I just jump shine and hold it, the ratio of success is the same. When I try to shine and JC grab as fast as possible I end up DJ nairing.

melee isn't solved. of all the characters, i think falco is the most (correctly) understood.

if you don't think the character is solved, we can go into some gritty detail with it. i'll go as far down the rabbit hole as you're willing to go, chief.

I think Falco only feels solved because he is simultaneously the least solved in how to combat him. I think this is especially evident with M2K. The guy just KNOWS Fox inside out. When I watch him play Fox in neutral, he's rarely caught off guard despite him being twice as fast as Falco. Against Falco, he frequently seems caught of guard by lasers, FHs, and dair vs. nair. So while it may seem while watching it that Falco is solved because he is destroying so hard, the same could be said watching any character destroying someone who isn't yet adept at a matchup. If a Fox systematically abuses DD speed, uthrow uairing, and shine spikes, you don't think, "Wow, Fox is a solved character." Hell, half of the matches I watch of M2K make me think he plays solved characters. I'm pretty sure everyone who watched that JV4 vs. PP at Zenith was absolutely convinced in that moment that how M2K played was the most "solved" thing in this game. And yet a few hours later he's getting destroyed almost as hard by the same player on the same stage in the same matchup. So while you may feel like a character is solved based on what they are doing, you also have to consider how those aspects of the character can be flipped upside down to solve the other half of the equation, and potentially make the vs. Falco metagame seem solved (largely the way Marth seems to be these days, contrast to when Ken/Azen/M2K Marths were dominating).

we should talk about how to pin marth from neutral without risking a dash attack under your laser. that would actually have some merit in this thread, since marth's spam dash attack these days whether its a set-up or blind.

what i do is i dash/SH "at" marth but not in that horrible way that i say to never do, but far away enough where you're not actually committing to anything. aggressive movement behavior generally triggers marth to do 1 of 2 things:

1. dashdance
2. not dashdance

if they DD by reflex, i make it a point to try to laser him after the dash away but before he can both turn around and dash attack. when marth is facing backwards, his ground control and defensive options are much more limited so my rate of exchange is exceedingly favorable. for marth to deal with this properly, he has to admit that he was caught off guard, respect falco's advantage, and forfeit a part of the stage, but then his dashdance is much worse too. this circumvents both the risk from dash attack, but it also uses dashdancing against marth to limit the tactic and to reverse momentum on him.

if the opponent doesn't dashdance or dashdances poorly (same thing) you know you're in the clear to mash buttons at him and you don't have to actually play around what the character can do.

this is also a general idea of what i mean when i say that falco has "free stage control everywhere forever".

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with a lot of this. I think dash attack is greatly overrated vs. Falco for a few reasons. First of all, if the Falco knows how to laser low, that immediately negates half of the attempts Marth will make. More importantly though, you can just react to their dash attack with SH dair. I do it every time. Setting up dash attack spacing is so telegraphed because it's the only thing he can do from that range. Marth wants to be in between tipper fair range and grab range most of the time, and he is also okay with tipper fsmash range. Dash attack range is so much further than fsmash that the only way they are going to land it out of neutral is if you're running away and they hard read it. If Falco is just spamming SHLs, Marth just does not have the time to get the dash attack out before the next laser hits him. The core spacing dilemma in this matchup is that Marth cannot simultaneously defend from lasers and approaches. On the other side, Falco cannot be in no man's land where none of his attacks hit, but he is too slow to easily vary between outside of Marth's range and on top of him. If Falco didn't have lasers, Marth could DD grab all day and never think twice about it. The matchup would be 80-20 or something ridiculous because Falco would just have no way of pinning him down long enough to SHFFL at him.

With lasers, Falco has a way of making him more predictable because he forces Marth to deal with them in some way. He has to shield, jump, or smack you before you finish your long-*** pre-laser ritual. Your assumption that you can either faceroll through Marths that don't dash dance and just laser Marths that do is extremely oversimplified. Marth has many more options, and while I won't argue that most Marth's rely primarily on DD, I would also point out that there aren't many good Marths, especially vs. Falco. Again, that doesn't mean Falco is solved, but rather most Marths are lagging behind on the vs. Falco metagame. Spamming DD can work vs. a lot of characters, but a trigger happy Falco is definitely not one of them. The Marths that are good vs. Falco are much more focused on smacking Falco out of his SHL (probably the best and most underused thing vs. Falco across the board for all matchups) or spacing yourself so that shielding the laser doesn't hurt you. Marth can use WD into shield to space against lasers without turning around, and this forces Falco into that main dilemma. If he spaces the laser right on top of Marth (pretty rare out of neutral), he can laser-shine to whatever. If he can't shine after that laser, then all bets are off. Marth can do a million things to punish that, and it becomes all about Yomi and what their habits are. Attack OoS if he'll try to SHFFL or relaser, grab if he tries to just run up and grab you, WD OoS towards him and take space if he tries to retreat. Those are the main ones anyway I notice anyway.

tl;dr
Dash attack is bad, and if you get hit by it trying to laser you should feel bad.

 

[unknown522]

TH3M4NROCKS or Armada?

Not armada

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Shine->grab is not a "true combo" it works and beats a lot of things, but it can lose to buffered shield options and fox can shine OoS if hes perfect. Falco's shine is +2 when you factor in the jump cancel, so anything that hits frame 4 or earlier will hit before the grab is active.

 

[FrenchToasts]

u can spot dodge a shine grab. besides that shinegrab is meh... this is my 2nd time on character threads and i can tell msot of u spend ur time on useless stuff like theory and all this other crap talkin about what u can do in certain situations, its not like ur really gonna think about what to do during the fight. just play the game and watch good players and copy them. ****in ez ! theres so much **** u cannot teach players with words, ive ****in tried lol.

srry to say but to even make top 20 in big nationals requires like 6-9 years of playing this game.. no effin joke. sittin at ur comp screen talkin about smash aint gonna help either lol.

but theres some advice i can give yall. keep approaching at a minimum, try to not miss edgeguards. all good players can tech ur edgeguards. dash atk tech chases r very guaranteed!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

srry to say but to even make top 20 in big nationals requires like 6-9 years of playing this game.. no effin joke. sittin at ur comp screen talkin about smash aint gonna help either lol.

What? Dr.PP and hbox both went from 0 to hero in less than 2 years

 

[Bones0]

Shine->grab is not a "true combo" it works and beats a lot of things, but it can lose to buffered shield options and fox can shine OoS if hes perfect. Falco's shine is +2 when you factor in the jump cancel, so anything that hits frame 4 or earlier will hit before the grab is active.

My mistake I guess... But barring a Fox shining OoS frame perfectly or the opponent hard reading a PC shine grab and buffering a spotdodge, a shinegrab would work. It's certainly a million times better than shine waveland which people get away with all the time.

u can spot dodge a shine grab. besides that shinegrab is meh... this is my 2nd time on character threads and i can tell msot of u spend ur time on useless stuff like theory and all this other crap talkin about what u can do in certain situations, its not like ur really gonna think about what to do during the fight. just play the game and watch good players and copy them. ****in ez ! theres so much **** u cannot teach players with words, ive ****in tried lol.

srry to say but to even make top 20 in big nationals requires like 6-9 years of playing this game.. no effin joke. sittin at ur comp screen talkin about smash aint gonna help either lol.

but theres some advice i can give yall. keep approaching at a minimum, try to not miss edgeguards. all good players can tech ur edgeguards. dash atk tech chases r very guaranteed!

Shine grab is meh?

No one thinks during games?

You can't teach players with words? (made even funnier by the fact that you go on to try to do just that, so idk what's going on)

 

[Mahone]

shinegrab is basically a free grab whenever you want it

it seems like the reason top players dont do it as much is because they value a clean dair hit way more than a grab, so if they only get the clean hit like 1/5 of the time theyd still take it over the grab

i dont think this is correct in many matchups, but i believe they could be right in some mus and maybe there is more to it than that

shine-turnaround grabs are especially free, i have never had one of those not work because no one expects it i guess

except for like fox shine oos, most of the the common mus solution to dodging shinegrab is so ****ty for them, like spotdodge or rolling, so i dont understand how people count that as a huge negative towards doing it...

also, you can easily adapt to them avoiding it and do the axe doubleshine where u waveland the platform with the 2nd airborne shine and now u've suddenly netted a clean shine hit from your shinegrab usage

also, also, when factoring advantage on shield you dont have to worry about the staleness of moves since it uses its base damage for the calculations...

i feel like ive seen people arguing about how good shinegrab is talk about how stale the shine is but that shouldnt matter...

i could be wrong about this, but its easy to test so one of u can try it and let me know


uh.... some other falco stuff

ive seen even top players use falco's run way too much when moving around...

once i realized that his walk was faster i have tried to only use that, you just move the stick a little to the right then u can slam it all the way and you'll walk, you just have to make sure u dont just start moving by slamming it all the way or ull run

it really helps because you have all your ****ing options at all times and its faster so i cant understand why i see top players still running in so many spots and barely not getting to their opponent in time

also ive testing angled upwards forward tilt more vs peach float and it still works really well against one of the common peach float heights

shortening is still broken... i remember talking to bones about how its so ******** people dont do it more since you can just set up to edgecancel a platform then shorten to grab the ledge so its really hard to edgegaurd it in A LOT of spots

i still cant shielddrop for **** but i know thats broken... when i played bones he kept shielddroping to shine when he was on a platform and i was attacking from above... the shine like platformcancels??, im not sure if thats the right term but basically if u shielddrop shine u stay above the platform, it seemed that the shine hit me regardless of how late i did the dair on his shield but im not 100% sure if shielddrop shine always beats that

i cant think of anything else atm, im just hella bored and main falco now so i thought id post this


oh ya, even though french toast is ******** and probably bad i have to agree with a lot of what he said.

seems like no one plays irl anymore, ive been begging people to play and offering to travel for like the last 4 weeks in like 3 different states and no one can ever play EVER... game is definitely dying... and when i say that people get super defensive and are like OMFG LOOK AT NATIONALS NUMBERS, or some **** like that, but i count people going to only nationals and not improving and staying mediocre for 10 years as the game dying so idk

 

[Divinokage]

A game can't die, it's just that people's motivations aren't strong enough.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

u can spot dodge a shine grab. besides that shinegrab is meh... this is my 2nd time on character threads and i can tell msot of u spend ur time on useless stuff like theory

I agree that a lot of the people who frequently post here are theory-nuts, but saying shine-grab is "meh" is about as theory as it gets, because shine grabs ****ing ***** in practice!

Sure you "can" spot-dodge it, but as long as you mix it up, and don't spam it like a one-trick pony, then your opponent will have no reason to spot-dodge when you shine their shield, because if you do ANYTHING other than grab, a spot-dodge equals a one way ticket to ****-ville. It's the same concept as samus' grab. In theory that **** is slow as **** and should always be avoided on reaction, but obviously samus players manage to get grabs pretty often lol

Also, one thing that I guarantee will absolutely help your game is to lay off the pessimism. Not to rag on you man, but I've seen you post and you seem to be a bit dramatic about things and you also seem to get kinda flustered easy (heck, I saw it irl at genesis 2 in the hotel). It is definitely in no way easy to become more positive, but I know for sure that negativity is something a lot of people deal with in smash (after bad losses or going on a losing streak etc.). It's almost pure fact that no one plays their best when they're angry/upset, and being in that state of mind also halts improvement as well IMO. Developing a healthy mindset and strong mental fortitude are ****ing keys to playing your best, feeling your best, and improving the fastest at smash (and living a better life too!). Obviously this is on top of playing the game though, and is not a supplement for actual practice lol

 

[Mahone]

ya clearly, melee to me is just getting better, i guess i should say the community is dying to be more precise

thanks kage

 

[knightpraetor]

mahone why is shield drop shine on a fox/falco coming at you from above better than just shining out of shield? does it come out faster or something?

just curious. If a falco comes down on my shield and i'm fox and they are in range I always just shine out of shield anyway. if they aren't spaced. are you talking about shield dropping and then jumping into shine on a falco/fox that attacks you with proper spacing?

that sounds really broken. though not sure if it would come out before falco could get other stuff out.

 

[Mahone]

ya, it feels like it comes out faster, im sure it does but not sure by how much.

and its much easier...

like if u do the shielddrop right, ull automatically have a super fast low shine, but with shine oos, there is a lot of variance on how fast you do it

and im talking about getting the shine off before their shine... like i said it felt like u can beat the latest dair shine with shielddrop shine and hit them after their dair but before their shine

late dair to shine is not able to be shined oos normally

also can u play now im sooooooooooooo bored.. please???

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

My mistake I guess... But barring a Fox shining OoS frame perfectly or the opponent hard reading a PC shine grab and buffering a spotdodge, a shinegrab would work. It's certainly a million times better than shine waveland which people get away with all the time.

Don't get me wrong, shine grab is amazing. It does have weaknesses tho

 

[Wenbobular]

What
Come play at Sypher's Mahone

 

[Mahone]

Im in blacksburg now...

i tried to play at syphers twice when you were there but apparently u guys end ur smashfests at like 9pm or some gay ****

 

[knightpraetor]

falco's late dair to shine only has two available frames done perfectly, so i doubt that it works if done perfectly. However, no falco does a perfect late dair shine. That kind of late dair is way too vulnerable to fox just moving out of shield and coming out with a nair/bair or something.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=112627

it's also ridiculously hard to space

That's why i've never had any trouble shining falcos out of shield on platform if they aren't spaced outside shine range.

However, maybe shield drop is faster? does anyone know the frame data?

anyway it's 4am..let's go eat mahone and get a few games in.

 

[Bones0]

ive seen even top players use falco's run way too much when moving around...

once i realized that his walk was faster i have tried to only use that, you just move the stick a little to the right then u can slam it all the way and you'll walk, you just have to make sure u dont just start moving by slamming it all the way or ull run

it really helps because you have all your ****ing options at all times and its faster so i cant understand why i see top players still running in so many spots and barely not getting to their opponent in time

I don't think walking is faster than his dash, only his run. If you just hit them across the stage and are going to chase them down you should walk, but if you're just talking short distances like running away from an attack, I'm pretty sure dashing is faster. I think WDing is the best of both worlds because you still maintain the ability to use tilts and smashes, but it also seems faster than either dashing or walking.

also ive testing angled upwards forward tilt more vs peach float and it still works really well against one of the common peach float heights

I still can't believe that **** works. o_o

i still cant shielddrop for **** but i know thats broken... when i played bones he kept shielddroping to shine when he was on a platform and i was attacking from above... the shine like platformcancels??, im not sure if thats the right term but basically if u shielddrop shine u stay above the platform, it seemed that the shine hit me regardless of how late i did the dair on his shield but im not 100% sure if shielddrop shine always beats that

Yeah, shinedrops platform cancel, but I usually just JC airdodge down as if it were a shine OoS in case it doesn't since the timing is pretty difficult to get in the heat of the moment. I think if you daired literally a frame or two before you hit the ground you could probably get the shine out safely, but then I'd just shinedrop after your shine. lol

oh ya, even though french toast is ******** and probably bad i have to agree with a lot of what he said.

seems like no one plays irl anymore, ive been begging people to play and offering to travel for like the last 4 weeks in like 3 different states and no one can ever play EVER... game is definitely dying... and when i say that people get super defensive and are like OMFG LOOK AT NATIONALS NUMBERS, or some **** like that, but i count people going to only nationals and not improving and staying mediocre for 10 years as the game dying so idk

I just figured our region sucked. Either way, it seems like the main issue is traveling. If you don't live near anyone, it's kinda hard to keep up regular practice. I would play almost every day if there were constantly someone within 30 mins of me wanting to play. Instead I'm stuck trying to match my schedule with DJ's and just playing a super 10-hour fest once a week (if that). I hope the people playing barlw have utter distaste for Smash 4 from day 1 and migrate back to Melee. Maybe I'm crazy, but I can't imagine even the most diehard barlwers sticking around with barlw. Even people who say they like it seem to admit that it frustrates them quite a bit. But yeah, I'm pretty confident Smash 4 is gonna suck either way.

 

[Mahone]

well i think if u shield drop its one frame to drop shield and then ur airborne so the shine would come out frame 1 making it 2 frames as well???

dude i suck at melee math and always miss some **** so idk

@bones, ya i still use the dash for like quick respaces and stuff... also, i think the wd is faster too, i usually walk into wding at the end if im like trying to move quick and then edgehog but maybe i should just try wding all over the place

and ya our region sucks but as far as i can tell only like 3 regions in the us are good so idk, DYING!!!!!!!!!

also, brawl is just different and not awful so they'll just stay with brawl if smash 4 sucks imo... i bet 64 players thought the same thing about us when brawl came out lol... well maybe not but MAYBE u kinda see the point im sorta making

 

[Winston]

^ damnit... I miss you guys

 

[Bones0]

well i think if u shield drop its one frame to drop shield and then ur airborne so the shine would come out frame 1 making it 2 frames as well???

dude i suck at melee math and always miss some **** so idk

@bones, ya i still use the dash for like quick respaces and stuff... also, i think the wd is faster too, i usually walk into wding at the end if im like trying to move quick and then edgehog but maybe i should just try wding all over the place

and ya our region sucks but as far as i can tell only like 3 regions in the us are good so idk, DYING!!!!!!!!!

also, brawl is just different and not awful so they'll just stay with brawl if smash 4 sucks imo... i bet 64 players thought the same thing about us when brawl came out lol... well maybe not but MAYBE u kinda see the point im sorta making

Shield drop works like this:
1 - Last frame of shield stun
2 - Pass animation
3 - Shine

If you dair-shine perfectly, you have 2 frames of L-cancel lag during which they are not in stun. So if you are frame perfect you can shine drop before their shine, and if you are one frame late your shines would "clank".

Yeah, I am really working on WDing more. When I'm playing vs. comps I try to only WD with the occasional dash for SHFFLs and DDing. I've also been trying to utilize shield stopping and WDing in place. There are so many ways you can use shield stopping before SHLs and RSHLs. I am pretty comfortable doing RSHLs out of shield stops, but the regular one is actually kind of harder.


Winston, settle our confusion once and for all. How good is your new region?

 

[unknown522]

@ mahone: the reason why dashing is good is because you can DD, to space yourself around moves. Also, you won't jump as far if you're not dashing, which already changes the way you can approach, and also for laser control (approaching or retreating). It has many other purposes over walking, but there's some important things already

 

[Wenbobular]

What the heck Mahone haha
I've slept on Max's couch a couple times already ~_~ I don't remember smashfests ending that early
But then again I'm also usually over on Friday and not Saturday so eh

 

[knightpraetor]

so curious now. is marth's walk at max speed faster than his run?

 

[Deleted member]

tl;dr
Dash attack is bad, and if you get hit by it trying to laser you should feel bad.

I think it's bad too but you should still learn how to fight bad things. there's a lot of bad players out there.

game is definitely dying... and when i say that people get super defensive and are like OMFG LOOK AT NATIONALS NUMBERS, or some **** like that, but i count people going to only nationals and not improving and staying mediocre for 10 years as the game dying so idk

been saying this since 2007.

 

[Divinokage]

ya clearly, melee to me is just getting better, i guess i should say the community is dying to be more precise

thanks kage

As a whole sure, but that doesnt mean you still cant train to kick top player's ***!

 

[Mahone]

Ya, but i dont enjoy practicing alone enough... i do it more than most players probably, but if i dont play humans every so often i dont really enjoy the game

@unknown, ya thats true, i guess im overrating walk, but i still think its underused in SOME spots and its just so fun to walk everywhere

@winston: miss you son

@wenbo: ya i think its that like his basement has no reception or some ****, whatever, ill catch u next time im in nova

 

[FrenchToasts]

Also, one thing that I guarantee will absolutely help your game is to lay off the pessimism. Not to rag on you man, but I've seen you post and you seem to be a bit dramatic about things and you also seem to get kinda flustered easy (heck, I saw it irl at genesis 2 in the hotel). It is definitely in no way easy to become more positive, but I know for sure that negativity is something a lot of people deal with in smash (after bad losses or going on a losing streak etc.). It's almost pure fact that no one plays their best when they're angry/upset, and being in that state of mind also halts improvement as well IMO. Developing a healthy mindset and strong mental fortitude are ****ing keys to playing your best, feeling your best, and improving the fastest at smash (and living a better life too!). Obviously this is on top of playing the game though, and is not a supplement for actual practice lol

ur ****in ******** buddy
u talk as if u know me and try to tell me how to live a better life like ur jesus christ. im 26, i probably lived longer than u have so i dont wanna hear ur stupid lame life experiences, **** urself kid. i never met u irl man. never went to gen2 so donno what ur talkin about buddy. before u talk to me again go earn ur own dime & support urself before telling me whats a good lifestyle. useless ****

 

[ShroudedOne]

Shortening is probably one of the most unfair things in this game. I don't see how it isn't being exploited much more...

 

[Winston]

^ Most unfair because they basically get to do 50/50 recoveries more often? It is really really good, but I don't know if I'd call that unfair.

Anyways, Westballz uses it a lot now, so I expect it'll be widespread soon enough.

Winston, settle our confusion once and for all. How good is your new region?

Umm, I've only been to one tournament so far; it seems like it's pretty similar to MD/VA in terms of skill level, but slightly smaller.

 

[Xyzz]

Well, shortened and full illusion are very hard to threaten at the same time. If the opponent is waiting on stage in order to punish the full length one, it'll be near impossible to punish the shortened one; and some characters can't grab the ledge and punish non shortened variants from there.
On top of that the spacie player gets the option to drop a little further and directly side b to the ledge or use up b at some point.

I'd say the amount of recovery options spacies have is pretty good. Not unfair good, but really good (s tier :D). Their main problem would possibly be that they have to be at a good height in order to access the full range of their options, and that against some opponents even a single read on their recovery choice spells death (e.g. CF could jump out and just knee into the illusion path, covering both lenghts :D).