PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

Depends on how close she does it, but I don't think you can grab it before (think of it likes marths up b with bigger hitbox that lasts >_>). If she thinks you're gonna jump over it though, you could probably dsmash without her being able to tech...

I don't know for sure though, I'm gonna test this out myself

Yeah I wouldn't think so either, but then again Peach usually just spaces close to the edge so I'm not sure.

Let me know what you find out please. I'll tell Twitch tonight or tomorrow to look at this with me haha.

 

[leffen]

fineeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[ShroudedOne]

Upon further thought, challenging her upB directly (while not impossible) seems pretty silly. Wasn't aware of how good her punishes were out of it (via techs). Guess it's best to just respect it, and punish what she gets up with.

The more you know...

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Dsmash needs perfect timing, and peach can easily just mixup the timing to avoid it.
It can also be walljump tech'd ->punished for free.

I do not think you need perfect timing, good, but not perfect. There is a lot BS set-ups in this game that require decent timing and people pull it off just fine. Getting the proper illusion cancel you want is a 1 frame deal. Falco only has to shove a stick down.

Its more the spacing that's the problem. If you can space it right, then there is a good window of opportunity to space Dsmash. There is like a frame where you might trade and another one or two frames where you can clearly hit peach without being hit. Peach mixing up her spacing or hugging the wall vs not is more of the problem. But, this is something you see all the time also with Marth and Fox/Falco in their UpB. All four can hug the wall or not. So this is not exactly a new situation to deal with.

Except that up-B isn't sweetspotted at all. Maybe I'm not familiar enough with her ledge grab length, but she certainly doesn't have to be pushed inside the wall like that, and I don't think she even has to go that high.

Either way, it looks like facing center stage for dsmash edge guards is actually much safer, but I can't tell because of the collision diamonds. Let me check the hitbox thread.

Hmmm, on his back his tail seems to stick out, but his hand on the ground actually seems to be more of an issue, at least for upwards pointed moves like Peach's or Marth's up-B. I may mess around today and see if I can get edgeguards any easier with one or the other.

I'd have to take another look and pan the camera around. I do not think his hands would be much of an issue. They go out more into the z-axis, so they might be avoided. Its more of his giant beak that seems to get in the way when he squats down on the ground. And Falco likes having his back to the ledge anyway at times. Utilt/Bair. All good options

When I was messing around with the sweetspot height. For example, fast fall for 13 frames, then upB. Fast fall for 14 frames, then UpB, etc. Peach had to raise pretty far above the stage height to actually grab the ledge. Any lower like in the first image I posted and she won't grab it at all.

Tech->Up B
Walljump tech->Bair
Walljump tech->Float ->Uair/nair/fair
Walljump tech->Airdodge->Dsmash (90% sure)

so yeah, not worth it

Like I mentioned before, we are already well familiar with Fox/Falco/Marth and their upB antics on the ledge. In Marth ditto. One marth might upB to the ledge and get hit by the other marth's Fsmash, but they managed to tech the Fsmash. Similar situations with fox and falco upB near the ledge.

Its one thing to actually do it, but still difficult to get the retaliation back afterwards. If a peach is showing themselves capable of routinely punishing your dsmash attempt after hitting them, then you should consider it not worth it.

If your opponent is not good enough to tech and punish, then it is probably well worth it to keep attempting dsmash to punish her UpB attempt.

Yep. Falcos feet stick out for quite a while after the hitbox comes out, thats why the fast options hit him.

I'm decently confident that the others work. You'll be hitting Peach frame 6, and Dsmash lasts for 46 (perfect iasa) frames. Airdodge land lag =10 frames, Dsmash =5 frames which gives you 25 frames for gaining height and to land from the airdodge, which should be possible.

Don't forget the lag of actually teching off the wall first which is 5 frames. You cannot actually start falling from an airdodge for like ~20 frames or so. So, 5 frame tech, ~20 frame airdodge, ~5 frame (max?) to fall, 10 frame landing lag. Oh look, we just ate up about 40 frames or so which gets falco out of his ending lag.

The airdodge option seems more like it resets the situation then giving her lots of time to punish.

tl;dr I think Dsmash might be worth attempting and messing around with it. Get good with it and actually give the options some time before saying, "This will no work".

 

[leffen]

I don't think you understand melee well enough to warrant me discussing these with you... its simply not worth the time, Sorry.

You basically got everything wrong >_>

 

[JPOBS]

Well he got one thing right, if the peach hasn't proven able to tech->punish your downsmash, might as well do it forever. Your explanations of what peach can do to punish sound difficult to say the least.

But if a peach walljump tech'd-> bomber vs me, i'd walk out of the venue.

 

[leffen]

If you're facing someone who can't press R after pressing UP-B then I don't think we should bother discussing it...

its a 20 frame window and youuuu can control when you can get hit (since you're out of range before you up B)
she also gets a free recovery even if she doesn't even hit you.

doing walljump->bair/whatever is extremely easy too lol


also xeylode what makes you think that I haven't messed around with it? I wasn't even against using it overall, just never when she can tech it (against sweetspot up b)




you guys disappoint cheffen

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I don't think you understand melee well enough to warrant me discussing these with you... its simply not worth the time, Sorry.

You basically got everything wrong >_>

Thank you and have a nice day. Come again :D

If you're facing someone who can't press R after pressing UP-B then I don't think we should bother discussing it...

its a 20 frame window and youuuu can control when you can get hit (since you're out of range before you up B)
she also gets a free recovery even if she doesn't even hit you.

also xeylode what makes you think that I haven't messed around with it? I wasn't even against using it overall, just never when she can tech it (against sweetspot up b)

you guys disappoint cheffen

doing walljump->bair/whatever is extremely easy too lol

Tech is not the difficult part, no. But there are multiple levels of skill in smash to consider and not everyone is the same along with lots of other mental factors to consider.

For newbies, teching is difficult since they don't always remember to press tech when going into the wall. For the more moderate, getting consistency on after the tech and not simply reacting with illusion or firefox to get on stage is another hurdle overcome.

Even in matches with Zhu or something, I do not wall jump -> bair every time they happen to tech the wall. There is time to consider your own reaction to the fact you got a tech in the first place instead of simply regrabbing the ledge.
^(I am referencing the fox/falco rather than peach since its more relate able here.)
Edit to the edi: Its a discussion. You represent one side it seems, the one showing the down side. I am trying to show the up sides. We meet and give the appearance of conflict. :D

 

[Bones0]

Leffen represents the side that uses an impossible to see text so his posts get ignored (more than usual).

 

[leffen]

stop whining bones


im busy defending my facebook of mangos rage, i aint got time to change colors or ****

 

[Dr Peepee]

he has plenty of time

 

[Zoler]

he has plenty of time

looooooooooooooool

 

[Wake]

I've done wall tech-->Peach bomber before. Wall tech-->Toad is funny too. Tech-->jump-->float if she still has it is nice also.

 

[mers]

Does dsmash still need perfect timing if you charge it? Seems like the leg invincibility might be useful.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Okay I tested this SOB out TODAY

I don't believe that Peach can techjump and hit Falco at all. Even with airdodge, or peach bomber, or Bair, or anything. Dsmash is good.

On some stages you have to walk to get the Dsmash done correctly(like FD) because you need momentum or something I think(if an elaborate explanation is required I'll try to figure out how to explain this).

I don't think you can shield DI offstage because the up-B just hits my shield and I don't move at all when I'm by the edge....or I get shield stabbed on top of my head.

SH'ing over the up-B isn't reliable but it can work if you do it early(sorta before the up-B gets to you but there's some leeway).

Until some video evidence proves otherwise, I believe Dsmash is 100% safe and good at forcing Peach to take action(unless she has her float I guess then you could get punished maybe).

 

[Sion]

i feel like charging dsmash would get me poked in the beak

id rather just walk up dsmash

 

[Moooose]

charging has invuln on the legs tho
good find pp

edit:oh i didnt see that was the point lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

Don't charge it doesn't work as well(on FD).

Her umbrella tends to stick through your charging legs and poke your body anyway somehow <.<

 

[Bones0]

As far as I know, the only reason to walk into the dsmash is for timing purposes. It lets you avoid their up-B's hitbox and still get close enough to dsmash them. I do it vs. Marth when I don't have time to get to the ledge. You start walking around the time when he will have to up-B, then you time it so you avoid the up-B's hitbox, and then you walk further towards him and dsmash after his hitbox disappears, but before he begins to fall to the ledge. I'm not sure how useful that would be vs. Peach since I think her hitbox stays out until she actually grabs the ledge (plus she can float so you can't always time her up-B well). It can at least help by covering her option of up-Bing close to the wall or far away though because you can sorta react as you're walking.

 

[Dr Peepee]

The up-B hitbox probably gets a little smaller just as she starts to descend, and that's when it's easier to hit her(on FD). On most stages, you can probably just stay in one place and charge Dsmash if you really want to and hit her with a stronger one. This would work on YS for example.

 

[Sion]

walk up dsmashalso works on marth so i dont see why it wouldnt work on peach

okay bones beat me but yeah

 

[Bones0]

The problem with staying in one place is that they can just wait you out with float, they can up-B super early to catch you off guard and hit you, or they can just space really far out so that dsmash won't reach. If you're so far up to the ledge that you can hit up-Bs from far away, they can up-B close to the wall and your dsmash will probably hit with the vertical KB hitbox instead of the horizontal KB.

When you were testing, were you able to consistently trade dsmash with up-B on reaction? Did you have to charge it to react in time?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I tested vs those up-B regrabs Armada does. You can react to Peach's spacing on those.

Yeah if she has her float then I'd need to test that. I didn't think about her spacing at various lengths from the edge or not, but I'll see if I can do something about that as well. I'd assume you could still react to the up-B but it'd be harder on like FD since you'd need to walk forward first. On YS or something like that it might not be too hard.

 

[ruhtraeel]

Watched Smasher's Reunion

GJ PP, nice inventive use of b-throw to make people do fail DI

Armada... jesus christ. So dominant.

That d-smash on a platform is too good, regardless -_-


But now the real question...
PP do you think you can beat Armada the next time around? What strategies would you use, what did you do wrong/right etc? PM if not share here :-p

Not to sound like a **** but I want to take notes too, no need to reply



Also, hopefully I can play some friendlies with my city's Marth main and get some advice cause I just get ***** over and over again

Also, the interview was amazing. Watching it made me instantly feel like playing smarter and focus more on spacing.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

On some stages you have to walk to get the Dsmash done correctly(like FD) because you need momentum or something I think(if an elaborate explanation is required I'll try to figure out how to explain this).

I think your explanation makes sense. Its really similar to how fox can connect a shine and grab people who get knocked over. He starts running, but as he shines, he keeps his momentum and slides along the ground a bit which is enough to allow the grab to come out and grab people as they too are moving forward. Not sure if walking gets you enough momentum to make a difference though.

Peach since I think her hitbox stays out until she actually grabs the ledge (plus she can float so you can't always time her up-B well).

The best sweespot I got in debug and she would not regrab the ledge until 4 frames after the hitbox went away on her parasol. And I want to note that it takes about 30 frames or 1/2 of a second to grab the ledge. That should be more than enough time to readily react to her using parasol.

 

[ruhtraeel]

Well spoken, PP.

I agree with a lot of what you said, and I especially found that Peach can dominate the hell out of any shown nervousness.

It's really annoying when anyone gets hit by Peach with something that was a result of a careless error IMO, just because the momentum that Peach gets is ludicrous, like Marth.
One dash attack catching you jumping out of shield... one falling nair or fair cause you didn't shield in time or you dropped it too early... one d-smash that you happen to miss a tech in.

I love seeing stuff you do smart things, like 11:51 and 11:59 of Set 1. Fadeaway laser. WTF.


On a side note... is it really safe to u-throw into f-air at a really low percent? It just feels like Peach can SDI, land before you do, and then d-smash.

 

[Bones0]

The best sweespot I got in debug and she would not regrab the ledge until 4 frames after the hitbox went away on her parasol. And I want to note that it takes about 30 frames or 1/2 of a second to grab the ledge. That should be more than enough time to readily react to her using parasol.

Wow, thanks. Definitely going to have to start dsmashing carefully when she up-Bs from now on.

 

[Rubyiris]

I'm going to be playing with Oksas today, does anyone have any suggestions for me to work on with him?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well spoken, PP.

I agree with a lot of what you said, and I especially found that Peach can dominate the hell out of any shown nervousness.

It's really annoying when anyone gets hit by Peach with something that was a result of a careless error IMO, just because the momentum that Peach gets is ludicrous, like Marth.
One dash attack catching you jumping out of shield... one falling nair or fair cause you didn't shield in time or you dropped it too early... one d-smash that you happen to miss a tech in.

I love seeing stuff you do smart things, like 11:51 and 11:59 of Set 1. Fadeaway laser. WTF.


On a side note... is it really safe to u-throw into f-air at a really low percent? It just feels like Peach can SDI, land before you do, and then d-smash.

@ last part: It looked like it would work but it never usually does....I don't know what to think about it because I never tested it LOL. Suffice to say I am not terribly concerned whether I get that or not but it was a nice gift once in a while.

I'm going to be playing with Oksas today, does anyone have any suggestions for me to work on with him?

idk who that even is but just focus on staying positive and clear-minded, never considering the results of the match at hand or matches overall.

 

[Naughty Pixel]

Try to play with a clear goal in mind, practicing specific things you wish to refine within the context of your matches with him. And make sure you're having fun, I don't seem to get much out of playing friendlies if I'm getting heated over mistakes, usually just turns into an autopilot vendetta.

 

[Mahone]

what causes u to sometimes tumble off the platform when you waveland off of it?

 

[Dr Peepee]

what causes u to sometimes tumble off the platform when you waveland off of it?

My only guess is that you accidentally hold a trigger button too long and the game registers your shield as coming up right before you fall.

This would only happen if you fell off backwards by the way.

 

[Bones0]

Mahone, I explained that to you. Did you forget already? lol

 

[Mahone]

haha ya i actually remembered that u told me but i forgot the reason, thanks guys

 

[Warhawk]

I hate when I do that on Yoshi's Story and kill myself lol.

 

[EWC]

Yo Peepee I was practicing that Shadowboxing thing you were talking about (with fox mostly cuz I main him, but also falco), and it was really helpful. I never realized how unfocused my techskill practice was before. Thanks for the idea.

 

[Bones0]

haha ya i actually remembered that u told me but i forgot the reason, thanks guys

lulz Well also make sure to remember that you need enough height to fall over, otherwise the tumble gets interrupted and you just land on your feet (and the height you need is based on your char's fall speed).

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yo Peepee I was practicing that Shadowboxing thing you were talking about (with fox mostly cuz I main him, but also falco), and it was really helpful. I never realized how unfocused my techskill practice was before. Thanks for the idea.

For anyone reading, could you cite what you realized was "unfocused" beforehand and what about this exercise helped bring it into focus?

Btw I'm glad it helped. =)

 

[EWC]

When I practiced movement, I didn't pay very much attention to the actual spacing and positioning part of it. So I practiced doing a lot of flashy movements a fast as possible, but never with any emphasis on keeping precise spacing while doing.

And wouldn't you know, a lot of the time when I actually try to do tight movements in game, I run straight into the hitboxes that I was trying to bait out.

 

[unknown522]

Did you get a new controller dude?