PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Uair people through platforms -> more successful follow-ups

 

[Bones0]

Uair people through platforms -> more successful follow-ups

Not true.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

1) Become falco
2) get larger hitboxes
3) have a longer short hop
4) do not fast fall
5) Learn to aim

Actually, just skip the last 4 steps and becoming falco is enough.

 

[Bones0]

But... DSMASH!!!

 

[Meneks]

How the **** do you play against peach?

It seems like all she has to do is float at a certain height and drops in whenever she wants

 

[Mahone]

You're the second person who has recommended this.

If everyone thinks it is THAT good then I will post it there. I'd like to see a couple more people's input on it though. I don't want to just throw this stuff around in multiple places if they're finding it already, you know?

not really, but whatever u wanna do

also u didnt include my microing irl for practice btw

and another tip i have for people i teach is i like to give them rewards when they do well and punish them when they do bad, its just playing off human nature to improve faster...

like i'll buy a hershey's chocolate bar and then when they do something good ill give them a piece of it (fyi the bars are already sectioned off into 12 easy to break identical rectangles)

and then when they do something bad ill like hit them on the back of the head or just like insult them depending on how bad it was

 

[Dr Peepee]

Worked some more with it and it works on Fox and Falco both, Falco it just seems like has a larger window where it combos him and its less timing dependent (but still requires a lot of timing with how late and low you do the uair). It doesn't seem to link into itself very well though from what I could do with it, but either way it gives you an uptilt after your standard shine->dair combos even if they DI away the last shine which is good because uptilt easily leads into a bunch of other stuff. Now weak uair->shine leads into itself for awhile, but I didn't test as much with that because it looks easier to sdi out of.

Still haven't tried weak uair->uptilt on Falcon, but I'm not sure it really matters since he's pretty easy to combo even after your standard dair->shine combos stop working. It might not true combo on him because he's heavier but he also doesn't have a shine to interrupt your combos with, so for all intents and purposes it probably combos him too.

So you tested at percents where Dair would no longer combo? That's a good start.

Uptilt is only good if they don't (S)DI both Uair and Utilt away I'd think. I'm not sure if it will work then, but it might. I might have Twitch test the DI with me tomorrow and some mixups out of those %s(and later) which can work really well.

Uair people through platforms -> more successful follow-ups

As long as people aren't able to CC/ASDI down then yeah.

But... DSMASH!!!

Getting directly under her might be safe, but either way watch Mango on BF vs a spacie and you see him do that Uair at lower(like 35-50) percent into Dair from a tech chase.

If Peach always Dsmashes when she lands on a platform then she's gonna get Uair'd anyway when you bait it lmao.

How the **** do you play against peach?

It seems like all she has to do is float at a certain height and drops in whenever she wants

You can attack into her sometimes because changing her float direction on a dime is tough. She's gotta guess where to go based on YOUR movement. FH Nairs and whatnot can work.

If it's a platform stage, just take the top platform if she floats. If she stays center stage just Dair/Bair her until she starts moving to the side of the stage. Then free drop down lasers into pressure!

not really, but whatever u wanna do

also u didnt include my microing irl for practice btw

and another tip i have for people i teach is i like to give them rewards when they do well and punish them when they do bad, its just playing off human nature to improve faster...

like i'll buy a hershey's chocolate bar and then when they do something good ill give them a piece of it (fyi the bars are already sectioned off into 12 easy to break identical rectangles)

and then when they do something bad ill like hit them on the back of the head or just like insult them depending on how bad it was

Bit you can't classically condition smashers!

Well, you can, but that's probably unethical/lame.

 

[EWC]

Have you factored SDI into this positioning equation? I've seen people get shines out on laser to Fsmash in the air and hit the Falco(in a ditto).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkWkda4fYUU

This is probably worth messing with more. I could see laser to shine or uptilt being REALLY good if one could quickly read the shine DI before lasering again.

I thought about SDI, but I didn't really have a good way to test it. I'd guess you would be able to escape laser->shine with that, but laser->uptilt still probably works since the uptilt has such a big hitbox.

I don't think laser->fsmash actually combos at all; Should be able to jump out no matter what.

I just tested the shine->laser part in training mode a bit. It's kinda tricky to get it to work against neutral DI or DI in at the percents where this would be useful, but it works well on DI away.

Also worth noting, you can combo dair->dtilt->laser->stuff at similar percents against neutral DI and DI in (I tested it at 34% against fox). This is nice because it works against the same DI that beats shine->laser, so you get a nice mixup.

I will try to experiment with this more thoroughly, and report back.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I thought about SDI, but I didn't really have a good way to test it. I'd guess you would be able to escape laser->shine with that, but laser->uptilt still probably works since the uptilt has such a big hitbox.

I don't think laser->fsmash actually combos at all; Should be able to jump out no matter what.

I just tested the shine->laser part in training mode a bit. It's kinda tricky to get it to work against neutral DI or DI in at the percents where this would be useful, but it works well on DI away.

Also worth noting, you can combo dair->dtilt->laser->stuff at similar percents against neutral DI and DI in (I tested it at 34% against fox). This is nice because it works against the same DI that beats shine->laser, so you get a nice mixup.

I will try to experiment with this more thoroughly, and report back.

Why 34%? Why not a greater percent or a range of percents? It is because the Dair kept him grounded instead of knocking him over? If so, then you can't mix up laser to shine after the Dtilt because he will just DI away and get out of the combo for free.

 

[EWC]

Yeah, it's because 34% is the latest percent that an unstaled dair will keep fox grounded. So I imagine all this happening at the end of a generic dair/shine string, and you can dair them one more time before it stops comboing.

If they DI away, then dair->shine->laser->stuff works. If they don't DI away, then it doesn't work very well, but Dair->dtilt->laser->stuff does. I guess it's kinda silly to call that a mixup, since everyone is always going to be DIing away.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah, it's because 34% is the latest percent that an unstaled dair will keep fox grounded. So I imagine all this happening at the end of a generic dair/shine string, and you can dair them one more time before it stops comboing.

If they DI away, then dair->shine->laser->stuff works. If they don't DI away, then it doesn't work very well, but Dair->dtilt->laser->stuff does. I guess it's kinda silly to call that a mixup, since everyone is always going to be DIing away.

Nah everyone doesn't always DI away at higher level, this is good stuff.

Just remember that not all Dair to shine combos end at 34% and not all Dairs/shines/lasers/Dtilts/etc will be unstaled, so more testing will be required for different percents and staling on the moves(different %s at least but ideally staling too).

Still, Dtilt is sick if people DI in, so that's a good call on the mixup haha.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Bit you can't classically condition smashers!
Well, you can, but that's probably unethical/lame.

I guess.

You can classically condition me. I kept a SideB habit with Marth against sheik on recovery it was getting me KO'd. Was criticized for it heavily after like 3-4 times. Then stopped doing it after being so pissed and my recovery instantly got better lol

tl;dr Don't give people sweets or be nice. Harass people for doing s*** wrong; they might get so mad they'll change lol

Although, I do have a question about platform antics. I notice my marth playing over into my falco. Many of marth's moves will place people onto platforms. Utilt/Uthrow/Uair/Tip Fair/ etc. and with his range he rarely needs to wavedash onto the platform to follow-up. Wait for their tech option and retaliate is usually the case.

Falco can force people onto platforms depending upon DI. Utilt, Shine, Dair, Uthrow, etc. Often times I'll see falco players following up by getting onto the platforms with shine->wavedash or just wavedash instead of attack through them. Even in non-teching situations such as a character simply sitting in shield on a platform, many times the answer I saw was get onto the platform by shine wavedash.

As Marth, I feel wired to wait out a tech option or poke around their shield by baiting it and attempting shield pokes. Would it be better to get onto platforms and challenge someone directly or wait it out and poke at them?

Its probably just a case of risks, but which risk is better served? Getting on platforms can be risky since if you miss time an attack, you get stuck in jumping/wavedash lag or you risk being hit as you try to get onto the platform. This not only loses you the positional advantage, but you get stuck in a possible combo set-up. By poking through platforms your reward might not lead to larger combos, but at the very least you still maintain some relative safety and you keep the position advantage. Maybe I have a wrong idea about this, but even if Fox is jumping around on platforms, Falco still holds the advantage.

 

[Mahone]

trust me, the treats work just as well as the insults

 

[Anand]

You guys are thinking of "operant conditioning" if I recall correctly from high school.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I would argue that sweets work better than insults, but salt and anger are pretty powerful...

 

[EWC]

This isn't something you argue about. This is something you test to see what works better. Empiricism!

 

[Mahone]

ya, i have tested it... id say hitting works the best but like... its not very scientific since chocolate isnt equivalant to hitting/insults, so idk, maybe i can try like, taking away chocolate when they are doing something wrong instead

 

[crush]

what if the y dont like chocolate



one time i fed foxlisk a french fry while he was playing mattdotzeb i think.

he didnt get any better

 

[Mahone]

everyone likes chocolate

 

[Deleted member]

You're the second person who has recommended this.

If everyone thinks it is THAT good then I will post it there. I'd like to see a couple more people's input on it though. I don't want to just throw this stuff around in multiple places if they're finding it already, you know?

actually, i was hoping you'd post it with the stuff i've been working on, but you're so busy lately. i am too really.

 

[Bones0]

ya, i have tested it... id say hitting works the best but like... its not very scientific since chocolate isnt equivalant to hitting/insults, so idk, maybe i can try like, taking away chocolate when they are doing something wrong instead

Feed them from another bar of chocolate that is actually fake and is flavored with some nasty sour flavoring. You should also use a bell and airhorn respectively to ensure you are able to bridge the gap of a few precious seconds that conditioning lasts for.

 

[Rubyiris]

everyone likes chocolate

I really hate chocolate. Especially dark chocolate. Too bitter

Sent from my LG-VM670 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Dr Peepee]

I guess.

You can classically condition me. I kept a SideB habit with Marth against sheik on recovery it was getting me KO'd. Was criticized for it heavily after like 3-4 times. Then stopped doing it after being so pissed and my recovery instantly got better lol

tl;dr Don't give people sweets or be nice. Harass people for doing s*** wrong; they might get so mad they'll change lol

Although, I do have a question about platform antics. I notice my marth playing over into my falco. Many of marth's moves will place people onto platforms. Utilt/Uthrow/Uair/Tip Fair/ etc. and with his range he rarely needs to wavedash onto the platform to follow-up. Wait for their tech option and retaliate is usually the case.

Falco can force people onto platforms depending upon DI. Utilt, Shine, Dair, Uthrow, etc. Often times I'll see falco players following up by getting onto the platforms with shine->wavedash or just wavedash instead of attack through them. Even in non-teching situations such as a character simply sitting in shield on a platform, many times the answer I saw was get onto the platform by shine wavedash.

As Marth, I feel wired to wait out a tech option or poke around their shield by baiting it and attempting shield pokes. Would it be better to get onto platforms and challenge someone directly or wait it out and poke at them?

Its probably just a case of risks, but which risk is better served? Getting on platforms can be risky since if you miss time an attack, you get stuck in jumping/wavedash lag or you risk being hit as you try to get onto the platform. This not only loses you the positional advantage, but you get stuck in a possible combo set-up. By poking through platforms your reward might not lead to larger combos, but at the very least you still maintain some relative safety and you keep the position advantage. Maybe I have a wrong idea about this, but even if Fox is jumping around on platforms, Falco still holds the advantage.

People operate on salt a lot so yeah that works.

Poking at people that can't jump away/move quickly is pretty good. That's why you see me often poking at Armada's shield when I'm under him. When the character can get away quickly(like Fox), then you want to change things up more often and sometimes get level with him so he can't escape easily.

When people start angling their shield down, then you should probably just get level with them(notice I am not saying always shine waveland) sometimes because they will just be expecting you to jump and aerial right away.

If you have the option on a tech chase to get on the platform or Uair/Bair/sometimes Utilt under it, then it really just depends on % and what you've been doing+stage. If it's a spacie at mid percent then you can just Uair and combo into Dair. If it's a Falcon at low percent then you want to shine waveland to hit him or hit him after he gets up. It just depends.

Fox still has lots of approach options from platforms, but if you mean when he's stuck shielding or in a tech chase position, then yeah sure.

actually, i was hoping you'd post it with the stuff i've been working on, but you're so busy lately. i am too really.

I have time until Saturday afternoon. Hit me up via text/aim when you wanna do something. I'll make time because I can until Saturday. After that it will be until the 17th/19th before I can do much, and I'll be moving into/adjusting to my new university then.

I really hate chocolate. Especially dark chocolate. Too bitter

Sent from my LG-VM670 using Tapatalk 2

Dark chocolate is no good for me either man.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Dark chocolate sucks.

Peepee, at SR, you seemed to be getting hit by Peach's DJ fair from the ledge more than you should have been (happened to you vs both Armada and Paju).

...You realize she doesn't have legitimate ledge options, right?

 

[unknown522]

Women love dark chocolate though so it's all good. I mean both sexually and also the actual chocolate

 

[Divinokage]

Ouu la la. Sexy.

 

[unknown522]

*flex*

 

[Mahone]

i enjoy the direction this is going in...

continue...

 

[Deleted member]

let's just wait until you start college then, i have a lot to work on and then i want to ship it your way.

i'd like to get charles involved in this as well, maybe more. i want it to be a good long-term project.

i can't beat chillins fox with zelda. apparently zelda is a light character? whatever.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I really hate chocolate. Especially dark chocolate. Too bitter

I think I can stomach 50%-70% cocoa, but anything higher than that is unbearable. At least you only have to melt it down and add about half its weight in pure sugar to make it taste good.

*read*

K, Ill have to pay attention to the match-ups and consider the stage and mix-ups. As always, thanks for the reply.

Ouu la la. Sexy.

*flex*

i enjoy the direction this is going in...
continue...

Spoiler

[yt]yUQNCQ2OI9Y[/yt]

 

[Mahone]

let's just wait until you start college then, i have a lot to work on and then i want to ship it your way.

i'd like to get charles involved in this as well, maybe more. i want it to be a good long-term project.

i can't beat chillins fox with zelda. apparently zelda is a light character? whatever.

are u going to syphers this weekend?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dark chocolate sucks.

Peepee, at SR, you seemed to be getting hit by Peach's DJ fair from the ledge more than you should have been (happened to you vs both Armada and Paju).

...You realize she doesn't have legitimate ledge options, right?

I don't really know what to do to see when she's grabbing the edge vs doing that up-B. Then there's a toad in there somewhere.

I guess I should put more pressure on him when he's grabbing the edge, I'll keep that in mind. Thanks!

let's just wait until you start college then, i have a lot to work on and then i want to ship it your way.

i'd like to get charles involved in this as well, maybe more. i want it to be a good long-term project.

i can't beat chillins fox with zelda. apparently zelda is a light character? whatever.

Alright that's fine. I'll make time for it.

He's gonna FH Uair dude wtf

 

[Mahone]

i dunno, empty hop waveland CHARGE DSMASH

vs peach the answer is always CHARAGE DSMASH

 

[Bones0]

Unless she's floating. Then you just HA ftilt, apparently.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I was going to make fun of you for considering toad as a legitimate option, but...

In any case, it's not too difficult to just react to. If you see her double jumping onto the stage, you can just ftilt (maybe downsmash works here too, lol) before her fair comes out as long as you react accordingly (a grab here is risky, but you could try it, to stifle toad as well). You can trade downsmash/dair/really really perfectly timed dtilt with her parasol because she can't sweetspot the ledge with it...if you're close to the ledge, he's pretty much usually going to upB (to stifle the threat of a dair before it comes out or something).

I wonder what lightshielding her upB at the ledge would do for you...Anyways, those are just my initial thoughts.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Lightshield does nothing, Dair won't hit unless she misses the sweetspot by a decent margin, and yeah I should just Dair trade lol.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I think Umbreon once said something to the effect of "When in doubt, dair."

What do you mean by dair won't hit unless she misses the sweetspot margin by a decent amount? Did you mean another move, or that you wouldn't be able to dair without trading?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think Umbreon once said something to the effect of "When in doubt, dair."

What do you mean by dair won't hit unless she misses the sweetspot margin by a decent amount? Did you mean another move, or that you wouldn't be able to dair without trading?

Umbreon and I disagree sometimes. It happens once in a while. =p

Well Dair won't even trade with up-B. The only way you can hit Peach out of it is if she exposes some part of her body for Dair to hit that's not the umbrella. Dair just doesn't reach far enough I guess.

 

[Mahone]

waveland charge dsmash

 

[Dr Peepee]

Got hit out of charge Dsmash Mahone! I tried that!!!