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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Mogwai

Mogwai

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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
unknown522 said:
*shakes head*

@ bones there are unwinnable matchups in this game. Take pichu vs ICs for example

:phone:
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Ok this one has always bothered me. Who the **** actually feels like enough of an expert on the Pichu vs. ICs matchup to conclusively say, well, ****ing anything about the matchup? Seriously, looking at matchup charts, this one being like 100-0 ICs or w/e and seeing Kirby as not getting totally butt****ed by Sheik were always the two that bothered me the most.
 
ShroudedOne

ShroudedOne

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Well, we may as well just throw MU ratios out of the window, because everything is so heavily player dependent. Is that what you guys are getting at? Because I think that would work better than trying to rework matchups due to one player's influence (i.e. Armada).
 
ShroudedOne

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Well, I don't know how I missed it. That's fine with me then, I mean anyone can do anything, technically, you just have to be smarter/work harder the further down the list you go.

But, I think that we can say that at top level (not mid nor low nor high), there are some characters that are simply not viable, because they have FAR less options than those above them.
 
Melomaniacal

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Tier lists and matchup ratios are only relevant under the assumption that both players are using all of their character's tools at a maximum level. So yes, they are very theory-based, but to say that a Pichu can beat a Shiek, and thus matchups don't matter, is a massive misunderstanding of what metagame analysis (the purpose of tier lists and matchup ratios) does.

:phone:
 
TheCrimsonBlur

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Eh, Bones you are going a bit off the deep end. I wouldn't agree that there are no "unwinnable" matchups in Melee, just that we don't know yet and even if there is, I doubt there is a player who can execute it to that degree. There hasn't been sufficient testing to come to the conclusion that any matchup is unwinnable; I think its silly to theorybro our way into utterly condemning a matchup. I also think that even in our most developed matchups (Marth-Fox is probably the most metagamed matchup in the game imo) there is still an extremely large window for improvement, and since people so imperfectly apply the things we know now, in PRACTICE, matchup ratios tend to even out in tournament. You will rarely find a player who plays matchups at their perfect metagame standard, or one that implements very much of what needs to be improved in the metagame, so the wiggle room for the losing side is large and forgiving.

Simpler games don't have this flexibility; if all you need to do to beat Hakan is throw fireballs and block his slide, then the matchup is very easy to execute and understand, and the likelihood that the Hakan player is going to overcome the matchup is a lot worse. With more options comes more complexity, so even if the "winning strategy" is just as dominant in Melee as it is in the Hakan example, the execution and understanding ceilings make it so that the losing side will likely see much more success in tournament.
 
unknown522

unknown522

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Mogwai said:
Ok this one has always bothered me. Who the **** actually feels like enough of an expert on the Pichu vs. ICs matchup to conclusively say, well, ****ing anything about the matchup? Seriously, looking at matchup charts, this one being like 100-0 ICs or w/e and seeing Kirby as not getting totally butt****ed by Sheik were always the two that bothered me the most.
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I'm probably the best pichu right now.

Blunted: dunno why my msn messages aren't going through anymore.....

:phone:
 
Rubyiris

Rubyiris

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Fernandez said:
You need to work on your spacing and deciscion making imo, vs Wobbles I saw alot of badly spaced aerials that you just seemed to throw out without much thought behind it, wich you got punished alot for.

0:30 for example you shouldnt have done any aerial at all and just double jump to the top platform
also 1:13 was such an obvious dair, something I use sometimes in a siuation like that(if I know my opponent is going to shield) is just run of the platform and land infront of them without doing any aerial and then when you land u shine -> something(fade away aerial, or shinegrab fe)

1:20 and 1:25 are also 2 dairs that werent spaced at all, you should really watch out more when you do something like that, atleast do a retreating dair.

also the random fsmashes at the end of game 1? why?
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I think you should watch more than one game. The first few games are spent trying to remember how to fight ice climbers in the first place and realizing that I don't know all of ICs defensive options when I'm attacking. :|

Also, yeah, Coreygames is a girl. <_<
 
JPOBS

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Talking about and analyzing the metagame and matchup ratios serves a few good purposes. Namely, it gets people to think about the game, and its also entertaining. Even if the ratios are "pointless" at the end of the day, because any player can overcome a bad matchup given sheer skill/experience, that doesn't means we should just throw matchup ratio discussion out the window entirely. It doesn't hurt anybody to talk about these things, unless people get unreasonably upset about the futility of it all.

Ruby, I would critique you but I don't know the first ****ing thing about playing against ice climbers. Zhu gave a great post on general vs IC's play like 2 weeks ago. Search his post history you might find it useful.
 
unknown522

unknown522

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TheCrimsonBlur said:
u guys srsly use msn? what is this, 2003?

and unknown, you need more recent vids of your pichu up homie. the 3 pichu mains out there are starving for material..
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yeah, I do need more material -_-.

Sadly the recordings of when I styled on ICG at the big house were lost

Also, msn all dai!!

edit: ruby, she hot?
 
Bones0

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JPOBS said:
Talking about and analyzing the metagame and matchup ratios serves a few good purposes. Namely, it gets people to think about the game, and its also entertaining. Even if the ratios are "pointless" at the end of the day, because any player can overcome a bad matchup given sheer skill/experience, that doesn't means we should just throw matchup ratio discussion out the window entirely. It doesn't hurt anybody to talk about these things, unless people get unreasonably upset about the futility of it all.

Ruby, I would critique you but I don't know the first ****ing thing about playing against ice climbers. Zhu gave a great post on general vs IC's play like 2 weeks ago. Search his post history you might find it useful.
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You can talk about and analyze matchups without trying to label them with a ratio though. We do it in this thread all the time, largely in part because everyone believes Falco is even or best in every matchup so it's not an issue to complain about. I think it directly hurts the community by basically reinforcing character johns when, realistically, the matchup rarely decides the outcome due to skill gap, and even less often due to most people not playing at the metagame level. The best example I think we can look at is Marth vs. Sheik. Most Marth players I've talked to these days largely agree that it isn't nearly as bad as it used to be known as. It was very much an "unwinnable" matchup, and as a direct result, there has been a lot less exploration in the matchup due to Marth mains just picking a secondary to deal with it. Obviously this is going to happen whether there are matchup ratios or not, but I think it would happen a lot less and new players wouldn't be immediately brainwashed by a matchup chart that says their character can or cannot win against other characters.
 
JPOBS

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Bones0 said:
You can talk about and analyze matchups without trying to label them with a ratio though. We do it in this thread all the time, largely in part because everyone believes Falco is even or best in every matchup so it's not an issue to complain about. I think it directly hurts the community by basically reinforcing character johns when, realistically, the matchup rarely decides the outcome due to skill gap, and even less often due to most people not playing at the metagame level. The best example I think we can look at is Marth vs. Sheik. Most Marth players I've talked to these days largely agree that it isn't nearly as bad as it used to be known as. It was very much an "unwinnable" matchup, and as a direct result, there has been a lot less exploration in the matchup due to Marth mains just picking a secondary to deal with it. Obviously this is going to happen whether there are matchup ratios or not, but I think it would happen a lot less and new players wouldn't be immediately brainwashed by a matchup chart that says their character can or cannot win against other characters.
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I've never heard or read someone say marth vs sheik is unwinnable. Ever.

And yea, like you said, it would happen whether we have ratios or not. People are whiny b****es and will find any reason to complain.
 
ShroudedOne

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*looks back over posts*

Somehow, I thought Mahone was one of the people who were disagreeing with you. Don't know how I missed that. Sorry. >.>

Peach probably has to play at her ultimate campiest to beat Puff, imo. Like, further than Pink Shinobi.
 
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