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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

AvengerAngel

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
449
Location
Italy
This might work in PAL.
LOL

I'd imagine (good) characters that can grab kirby's duck would do better than characters that can't since that's a pretty powerful tool.

Question tho - I was just messing around with grabbing a ducking kirby and I noticed that marth and sheik can standing grab a kirby after spamming it a few times. With sheik I was whiffing maybe 5 in a row and then suddenly the 6th one connects. Anyone know why this is? Marth was a little more frequent, like 1/4. It seems like kirby bobs up and down very slightly while ducking so maybe the hurtbox is moving and just barely comes into the grab range at some points. CF was unable to grab ever, btw.
You got it right. I'm not magus so I can't be 100% sure, but I'm almost sure it's because of that. Characters are constantly moving even when they stand still (i.e. you didn't give any input) on their feet or lying on the ground. This changes slightly their hurtboxes and can make the difference between a successful or unsuccessful grab attempt. I've tested it with Falco vs. Marth. If you stay at a certain distance (like 2 or 2.5 Falcos away from Marth), Marth won't be able to grab you most of the times. BUT if he just keeps spamming it he will get you sooner or later because Falco does that weird thing with his arm that extends his hurtbox towards his opponent. And is was the same for crouching: somehow when you're crouching your hurtbox is a bit bigger, making it easier for your opponent to grab you.
God this sucks. I tested it just to see how ******** was Marth's grab and it REALLY is retarted D:
You have to be at like Ftilt tipper range to make sure you're not going to get grabbed (and even there be careful not to do stupid stuff like jabbing his shield or you'll get ***** anyway) D:

tl;dr = yeah characters' animations extend their hurtboxes AND Falco is low tier. Poor Falco D:
 

EWC

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
651
Location
norcal
Your weight is reduced when you charge a smash, so moves will have more knockback. Hitstun is entirely a function of knockback velocity, so you'd have more stun too.
 

Rubyiris

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
6,033
Location
Tucson, AZ.
New matches from THC3. Apologies for the video quality, my program didn't save my video settings from THC2, and I didn't think to double check. Critique would be lovely. I feel like my initial improvement over the last few months has stagnated, and I feel like I overall just didn't play well at all. I have an idea of a few things to work on, but any, and all constructive input is always appreciated.

Vs Silly Kyle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buhGt5F5CNY&list=UUOd2ncLP0OFPIDcX8iBcl5g&index=3&feature=plcp

Vs Angel (Amazing Yoshi player)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2HfiJl4xig&list=UUOd2ncLP0OFPIDcX8iBcl5g&index=6&feature=plcp

Vs FerrishTheFish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNBSRfHw6jA&list=UUOd2ncLP0OFPIDcX8iBcl5g&index=4&feature=plcp

Teams (G3 I go marth, ignore this.)
Rubyiris (Falco/Marth) and AppleSmaush (Samus) vs KosukeKGA (Marth) and Max (Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtqHaliKq68&list=UUOd2ncLP0OFPIDcX8iBcl5g&index=8&feature=plcp

Sets vs OkamiBW's Falco, Falcoty's Shiek, Axe's Pikachu to come.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
[collapse=King Funk]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK0f8J7cflI

Hi guys, haven't been here in a while. I wondered if anyone could give me a bit of critique on this set (at least the 1st two games). Looking to improve my game vs Puff. I'm not a great player or anything, but any input would be dearly appreciated. ^^
[collapse=Game 1 - YS]
1:00 - You played the first stock really solid until that grab. You kept your back to her and played it safe when possible. You landed some nice bairs on her shield, but you weren't working with the pressure very well. You just let her escape. It seemed like you were delaying your utilts to catch a delayed OoS option, but she kept moving asap so you should try to adjust immediately and utilt sooner or shine. On most stages shining isn't that good, but on YS, you can shine pillar Jiggs off the top from absurdly low %s. With no DI, she dies from the top plat, side plat, and bottom stage at 2%, 16%, and 35% respectively. It's also more beneficial to shine to keep them honest, and popping them up with a shine that you can't combo from is still a much better position than not shining and letting them reset to neutral.

1:20 - Just got greedy with the dair OoS. Fair OoS might have hit, but it's pretty unnecessary anyway. I think capitalizing on her landing would lead to better punishes than trying to smack her out of the air.

1:50 - That shine was basically what I was talking about before. Just be ready to hit confirm the shine and you will get mad kills with shine pillars.

2:30 - WDing OoS off the edge of the plat when she uaired you would have led to an easy bair kill.

2:45 - I don't agree with the decision to cross her up here. You lose the ability to utilt/bair because you are facing her, and more importantly, she was trapped at the ledge at high %. Just block off the low course as well as you can, and get ready for the FH bair if she tries to go over you.

4:00 - Another shine pillar opportunity. Not sure why you shielded because if she shielded your dair you could have easily gotten grabbed, and if she does get hit by the dair it's an easy shine kill (even if she techs you could chase her roll on reaction pretty easily).

4:45 - Uthrow shine would have killed.[/collapse][/collapse]

Going to smash, but I will do more later. Any questions or things you want me to look at in particular just lmk.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,550
Off the side, yeah. And I am assuming you also have more hit stun. Strongbad?
And vertically.
Your weight is reduced when you charge a smash, so moves will have more knockback. Hitstun is entirely a function of knockback velocity, so you'd have more stun too.
Weight isn't technically "reduced"; knockback is multiplied by 1.2. This is only a relevant difference in cases where moves have high base knockback such as Ganon's Fair where the BKB being multiplied makes a large difference.
 

EWC

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
651
Location
norcal
And vertically.

Weight isn't technically "reduced"; knockback is multiplied by 1.2. This is only a relevant difference in cases where moves have high base knockback such as Ganon's Fair where the BKB being multiplied makes a large difference.
Oh. Didn't know that. Cool.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
And vertically.

Weight isn't technically "reduced"; knockback is multiplied by 1.2. This is only a relevant difference in cases where moves have high base knockback such as Ganon's Fair where the BKB being multiplied makes a large difference.
What affects vertical KB? I know gravity comes into play, but idk how. Oh, it multiplies KB. I'm dumb. Also, would Falco's shine BKB being multiplied make it easier to shine people off the top? Also also, when does the window of reduced weight begin and end (is it only on frames where they are charging)?
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
27,296
Location
Modesto, CA
NNID
choknater
falco is such an amazing character

i'm finally getting a little used to actually KNOWING what to do in the neutral game vs fox
 

AustinRC

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
1,482
I guess I'll post this here. I played in a tournament this past weekend got third. I was going to see if I could get a critique on my Falco. I start off pretty bad but pick it up in the end it's only one match but if you guys could give me any kind of critique as to what I did wrong or what I should look out for I'd be very grateful!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pnjaoeusqc&feature=youtu.be

It's game two on rainbow cruise. Like I said thanks again I REALLY appreciate any kind of critique and will continue to play Falco and use him in tournament. Thanks again have a wonderful day!
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
[collapse=King Funk]

[collapse=Game 1 - YS]1:00 - You played the first stock really solid until that grab. You kept your back to her and played it safe when possible. You landed some nice bairs on her shield, but you weren't working with the pressure very well. You just let her escape. It seemed like you were delaying your utilts to catch a delayed OoS option, but she kept moving asap so you should try to adjust immediately and utilt sooner or shine. On most stages shining isn't that good, but on YS, you can shine pillar Jiggs off the top from absurdly low %s. With no DI, she dies from the top plat, side plat, and bottom stage at 2%, 16%, and 35% respectively. It's also more beneficial to shine to keep them honest, and popping them up with a shine that you can't combo from is still a much better position than not shining and letting them reset to neutral.

1:20 - Just got greedy with the dair OoS. Fair OoS might have hit, but it's pretty unnecessary anyway. I think capitalizing on her landing would lead to better punishes than trying to smack her out of the air.

1:50 - That shine was basically what I was talking about before. Just be ready to hit confirm the shine and you will get mad kills with shine pillars.

2:30 - WDing OoS off the edge of the plat when she uaired you would have led to an easy bair kill.

2:45 - I don't agree with the decision to cross her up here. You lose the ability to utilt/bair because you are facing her, and more importantly, she was trapped at the ledge at high %. Just block off the low course as well as you can, and get ready for the FH bair if she tries to go over you.

4:00 - Another shine pillar opportunity. Not sure why you shielded because if she shielded your dair you could have easily gotten grabbed, and if she does get hit by the dair it's an easy shine kill (even if she techs you could chase her roll on reaction pretty easily).

4:45 - Uthrow shine would have killed.[/collapse][/collapse]

Going to smash, but I will do more later. Any questions or things you want me to look at in particular just lmk.
[collapse=Game 2 - BF]6:05 - Don't give center stage this easily. You're better off just trying to keep her above the platforms because it's way to hard to hit her with an uair because of how good her air maneuverability is (at least when she's in the middle; towards the sides she is forced to come in more so you may land them there).

8:05 - Perfect chance for a tomahawk grab.
9:15 - Again.

9:20 - Just take note of how disorienting it is for her when you can land lasers like that.

9:35 - Got a little impatient and jumped towards a grounded Jiggs with no lag. If you feel walled out (in any matchup really), I've found WDing greatly improves your success in penetrating their defenses because you come in so much faster. Something like WDing towards them with a utilt/usmash, or even into shield is great because it takes space and is relatively safe.[/collapse]
[collapse=Game 3 - FD]11:57 - The choice to go FD is interesting. I don't think it's particularly a bad map for the matchup or anything, but it seemed like in the previous matches, even as Falco, you were using platforms much more than she was. She only got one rest off of a missed tech on a plat, and you were frequently using them for approaches and safe movement above her. I would usually opt for YS or PS, and even DL isn't a bad choice considering you looked like you were heavily favoring more defensive keep-away game play with laser emphasis. She was also gaining most during the previous matches by effectively walling you out, and going FD makes that strategy all the more powerful because you are much more easily trapped on a side.

12:20 - Might as well have come down with a bair from that FH to protect yourself.

12:25 - Don't be afraid to grab the ledge when she's that far from it. It can lead to shine spikes, and at the very least, you can use the invincibility to LH bair and keep her off stage for that much longer.

12:35 - This should have been a clear sign you were DJing too much. You can't really punish Jiggs out of a DJ, especially when you're facing her, so all you are doing is giving her a chance to move in under you.

13:35 - DIing uthrows is hard. :c lol

13:50 - Dthrow only does 4%, so it's not really worth it. At low %s when I don't have time to standing laser -> uthrow uair, I usually falling uair into another uair or bair.

14:25 - lol Best rage quit ever. You got grabbed cause you DJ drilled... :|[/collapse]
[collapse=Game 4 - FoD]16:25 - It looked like you tried to late bair her, but it's pointless in the air. Assuming you are close enough, I would just autocancel all the time when she is in the air because she obviously can't shield.

16:30 - Fire stall with back -> up-B. So much easier. You just roll the stick from back to up. I also occasionally shine -> up-B when I am trying to maximize my invincibility frames. I can sit in shine and watch my opponent and then jump into an up-B ledge grab as late as possible.

16:45 - I can understand not wanting to get back on the ledge after that gimp, especially in tourney, but you definitely should have just grabbed it and LH baired her with the invincibility when you saw how far down she dropped.

17:55 - Laser grab is better than laser dtilt when you can't hit confirm the laser. From the grab it's an easy kill opportunity.

18:20 - Tomahawk grab! lol[/collapse]
[collapse=Game 5 - BF]20:55 - You always wait a little too long after uthrows before you jump (with Fox as well).

22:50 - Your high lasers shouldn't be so much slower than your low ones. If you press B as soon as you're airborne, you can get the highest laser possible and still FF as soon as possible. I see a lot of Falcos that do this. Laser height should be entirely controlled by the timing of the B press, not by the timing of the FF. The exception would be when you are doing it specifically to mix it up and confuse them with the timing, like sometimes I do super late SHLs without FFing at all to catch OoS movement or w/e.

25:25 - Gah, should have DI'd towards the middle. :/ Sucks losing close sets, especially when they are are bunch of long like this one.[/collapse]

General things:
- Tomahawk turn around grab is a great mixup for delayed bairs in this matchup. I'm pretty sure I saw PP do this a lot against Hbox.
- I felt like you could have lasered a bit more when you were far away from her. It's good for disrupting her aerial movement because she wants to usually be coming in facing backwards, and lasers turn her around.
- WDing helps movement tricksies so much. Next time you practice just spam WDing until you can find out when it is and isn't useful. Cut out dashing as much as possible when WDing can accomplish the same thing (particularly when approaching or retreating; DDing is more useful for spacing/pivoting into bair, but you need to use both together for the best efficiency).
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Tomahawk turn around grabs?
Yeah, it's just an empty hop. This one doesn't have a turn around because he crossed him up, but it's basically whenever someone does THIS. I didn't see any tomahawk turn around grabs, so I might be thinking of PP vs. Armada because Armada shields way more than Hbox.
 

Rubyiris

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
6,033
Location
Tucson, AZ.
I hate to be pushy, but if you can post before Friday, I'd love you forever. I have a tournament Saturday, and I plan on training on Friday. I do most of my serious studying the night before so I can sleep on it.

:phone:
 

Vaccine

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
491
Location
Bloomfield Hills MI
its been along time since any of my recorded sets have been uploaded. so it would be cool if i could get some feedback from u guys. but theres a bit of a catch lol. the only 2 of my sets that were uploaded were of teams... so yeah... it would be pretty cool if i could get some feedback and i would really appreciate it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXjTRdXSB48&feature=g-u-u&context=G253a913FUAAAAAAAAAA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JhCxJ2sawI&feature=g-u-u&context=G253a913FUAAAAAAAAAA

Thanks

also im the blue falco just so u guys know
 
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