PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Ballistics]

that's not really how shine works when it reflects... blocking a projectile with Shine locks you into the shine for 19 frames, which actually will give them the frame advantage by the time you can WD out of it.

ah yes good point, it does have alot of lag, maybe thats just enough frames to hit them and jump out of shine to do an aerial

 

[X1-12]

if you shine thier LDL they'll have time to hit you with a dair/thier own shine before you get out of the lag

 

[DippnDots]

yeah if you're really close to the ledge, just cc the first one then ftilt, you might even have enough time to fsmash cause i've seen darkrain do a cc into fsmash before, though he was obviously using falcon.

But yeah, if you're going to counter a LDL i'd recommend always trying to hit them back off the stage before they land and without a grab because then their jump goes bye bye.

 

[X1-12]

p-p-p-p PeePee is there any sortof general rules you follow as to when to waveshine and when to just jump out of the shine?

 

[Dr Peepee]

That's a pretty important question.

I typically do whatever option I think will still work to help me combo if I got the shine. For example, if I'm fighting a Fox, then I'll waveshine more than vs, say, a Samus because if I get the hit on Fox the waveshine would be better for me to keep a combo going.

Vs like Sheik I would rather jump after shining because it's easier to combo then, and waveshine keeps me grounded too long.

If I get punished for those movements too much, then I'll work on shield pressuring more since I'll probably be punished OOS a lot when I thought I was going to get a shine hit instead.

I...think that answers your question. That's just me though. Not sure what other Falcos do about this.

 

[AnDaLe]

That's a pretty important question.

I typically do whatever option I think will still work to help me combo if I got the shine. For example, if I'm fighting a Fox, then I'll waveshine more than vs, say, a Samus because if I get the hit on Fox the waveshine would be better for me to keep a combo going.

Vs like Sheik I would rather jump after shining because it's easier to combo then, and waveshine keeps me grounded too long.

If I get punished for those movements too much, then I'll work on shield pressuring more since I'll probably be punished OOS a lot when I thought I was going to get a shine hit instead.

I...think that answers your question. That's just me though. Not sure what other Falcos do about this.

why wouldn't you want to stay grounded too long against sheik?

 

[JPOBS]

cuz if you stay grounded too long then you have to resort to doing a full/DJ rising aerial in order to hit her but that wont lead to much/anything cuz she'll land before you and then she could get away/**** you.

whereas if you're airborn early after the shine, you have time to jump above her and FF htorugh with a dair which can lead to uptilts and shines and combos way easier.

 

[FoxLisk]

I have no sheik practice and I just lost to one in tourney, so i have some questions: any general tips on sheik? And more importantly, how to combo her effectively?

I couldn't get dair -> shine to link past like... 35% or so. Should I be going for dair -> utilt instead?

One thing I found that might have worked was when I shined her at say 30% (50%) and she was just above a low (high) platform, I could have wavelanded and then utilted and then jumped up and... I dunno, daired or shine-baired just for damage or something. is that something i should have been trying? or shoudl I have been looking to jump above her and come down with a dair -> shine/utilt? is that more appropriate? It seems like that one would work on a side platform but maybe not on a top platform unless I was certain the shine was going to land to begin with.

anyway i think i basically played the matchup reasonably well, just keeping her at bay with lasers, trying really hard not to get grabbed because of her nasty tech chases, etc, much like every other matchup. general tips are welcome, though.

 

[idea]

Unknown522 posting:

I have no sheik practice and I just lost to one in tourney, so i have some questions: any general tips on sheik? And more importantly, how to combo her effectively?

I couldn't get dair -> shine to link past like... 35% or so. Should I be going for dair -> utilt instead?

if she (and various other character) DI/SDI away from your d-air, the shine will miss a lot of the times. It's considerably easier with sheik because of her body contortions when she gets hit. You can d-air -> u-tilt or d-tilt if you want. Alternatively, when the opponent is above 20% and you think they will DI your d-air, you can run after you hit them, then SH/JC shine them and combo.

One thing I found that might have worked was when I shined her at say 30% (50%) and she was just above a low (high) platform, I could have wavelanded and then utilted and then jumped up and... I dunno, daired or shine-baired just for damage or something. is that something i should have been trying? or shoudl I have been looking to jump above her and come down with a dair -> shine/utilt? is that more appropriate? It seems like that one would work on a side platform but maybe not on a top platform unless I was certain the shine was going to land to begin with.

whatever works for you. I like to d-air them onto a platform because sheik's tech roll is huge, so she gets cut off by the edges off the platform, so you can just f-smash them on reaction, or shine/u-tilt/d-smash them if they tech in place or miss the tech.

anyway i think i basically played the matchup reasonably well, just keeping her at bay with lasers, trying really hard not to get grabbed because of her nasty tech chases, etc, much like every other matchup. general tips are welcome, though.

more later when I get home.

 

[DippnDots]

I find a lot of times after dairing sheiks, they sorta of ick away from you shortly, but then they come back to where they originally were. If you do the shine immediately after the dair you'll miss and get jabbed or grabbed or something, but if you wait about 20-30 frames for them to slide back to where they were the shine will hit them while they're still in stun. They never really move from the same spot but the majority of their body gets outta shine range, but like i said, they slide back to the neutral standing position.

My guess is at low percents they're CC the dair, so they don't move but go into a "getting hit" animation of sorts.

 

[X1-12]

I find a lot of times after dairing sheiks, they sorta of ick away from you shortly, but then they come back to where they originally were. If you do the shine immediately after the dair you'll miss and get jabbed or grabbed or something, but if you wait about 20-30 frames for them to slide back to where they were the shine will hit them while they're still in stun. They never really move from the same spot but the majority of their body gets outta shine range, but like i said, they slide back to the neutral standing position.

My guess is at low percents they're CC the dair, so they don't move but go into a "getting hit" animation of sorts.

try walking a tiny bit before the shine if you need to, or just land the dair closer to them

 

[FoxLisk]

oh i was lying, what i meant was I couldn't get shine -> dair to combo, not dair -> shine. thanks for that info though, the sheik i was playing didn't do that but I'm sure one will some day. but when I shined her on the ground at like, 30%ish and there was no platform issue going on, I either couldnt get the dair to hit in such a way that I landed in time to combo. is there a better option or am i just too slow/timing it wrong/something?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

if you ever get a chance peeps

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=266936

thanks :D

 

[AnDaLe]

I'm sooo glad we got sheik discussion right at the time i needed one =)

 

[X1-12]

oh i was lying, what i meant was I couldn't get shine -> dair to combo, not dair -> shine. thanks for that info though, the sheik i was playing didn't do that but I'm sure one will some day. but when I shined her on the ground at like, 30%ish and there was no platform issue going on, I either couldnt get the dair to hit in such a way that I landed in time to combo. is there a better option or am i just too slow/timing it wrong/something?

try instant double jumping, fastfalling as soon as you can then delay your dair for a bit, if you do it too early, she will fair you after your dair, so leave it as late as you can. Also in general using up-tilt stops this problem most of the time wo use this vs sheik when you can

EDIT: you can also just shine them then Bair follow up with lasers to keep them out of range

 

[Deathgazer]

@X1-12 hows your falco going?

 

[X1-12]

Yeah its pretty pretty well thanks, got a load of games in at TCs house the other day, some good match-up practise and i've dropped marth, switched to only maining falco now so I get some more solid practise in, still not sure about playing vs ICs and a few others but on total its pretty solid. oh and i've got shine OoS down and stuff now should be good. You going to SNY1?

 

[FoxLisk]

try instant double jumping, fastfalling as soon as you can then delay your dair for a bit, if you do it too early, she will fair you after your dair, so leave it as late as you can. Also in general using up-tilt stops this problem most of the time wo use this vs sheik when you can

EDIT: you can also just shine them then Bair follow up with lasers to keep them out of range

okay cool thanks. i was just bair-shining but i felt like i was losing a lot of free damage that way, so thanks for the tip.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Check out this awesome headline.

 

[Mogwai]

so I guess 1st prize was just camping their shield... They shouldn't have done that

 

[Ryan-K]

i would just like to say 2 things

1) uthrow fair on marth = hilarious
2) fighting jiggs on kongo jungle = doubly hilarious

 

[Deathgazer]

Yeah its pretty pretty well thanks, got a load of games in at TCs house the other day, some good match-up practise and i've dropped marth, switched to only maining falco now so I get some more solid practise in, still not sure about playing vs ICs and a few others but on total its pretty solid. oh and i've got shine OoS down and stuff now should be good. You going to SNY1?

yer I should be, but first theres GT3. Ive just been practicing tech skill like mad during hte hols lol. whereabouts do you live ?

 

[X1-12]

yer I should be, but first theres GT3. Ive just been practicing tech skill like mad during hte hols lol. whereabouts do you live ?

I live in Wokingham which is like 10-15 minutes train ride from Reading but everyone vaguely active lives about 1hour+ away :/ Craiigg is the closest but hardly ever plays melee.

What sorta techskill stuff do you even have left to practise? just random shine wavelands and things?

 

[DippnDots]

hey guys, pro edge guarding mindgame for falcon.

If you see them edge teching into an instant up b on you a lot, try doing an am empty short hop fastfall to give the illusion of a dair edgeguard, chances are you'll catch them off guard if you've been dairing a lot and they might hit L too early for the tech, once you land downward ftilt -> edge hog and possible follow up bairs depending on their percent. It's awesome because if they hit L too early, they won't be able to tech at all for some amount of frames, definitely enough for you to ftilt.

the window for this can be very short though, but because falcon can't sweet spot and essentially hovers at edgeguard range for a while during his up-b it's not impossible to pull off.

 

[FoxLisk]

dippndots

if they're trying to sweetspot i think you can just back up a little and dsmash such that you wont get caught by their up-b and then ftilt/fsmash/whatever them out of it. i know it's worked for me, but it might be as a result of people not up-bing instantly, i cant say for certain.

 

[JPOBS]

if falcon ever goes low he's already dead. All you have to do is grab the ledge and ledgehop spike him.

by far his best option is to B-up early and try to mindgame you by landing on a platform/edgecancel/DI'ing back towards the edge.

 

[X1-12]

i

by far his best option is to B-up early and try to mindgame you by landing on a platform/edgecancel/DI'ing back towards the edge.

if they try to mindgame whree its not clear if they'll land on thes stage or take the ledge , always hold the edge the whole time, then you can ledgehop bair or dair after they land

 

[_marth1_]

do you guys really need a guide like this to beat falcon??
come on now

 

[Roneblaster]

lololol, thats what ive been saying.

Just press B more frequently and you'll beat falcon.

i believe my exact words to viperboy a few weekends ago were "The more buttons you press (as falco in general but especially vs Falcon), the higher your probability of winning becomes."

 

[tw1n]

That's a pretty important question.

I typically do whatever option I think will still work to help me combo if I got the shine. For example, if I'm fighting a Fox, then I'll waveshine more than vs, say, a Samus because if I get the hit on Fox the waveshine would be better for me to keep a combo going.

Vs like Sheik I would rather jump after shining because it's easier to combo then, and waveshine keeps me grounded too long.

If I get punished for those movements too much, then I'll work on shield pressuring more since I'll probably be punished OOS a lot when I thought I was going to get a shine hit instead.

I...think that answers your question. That's just me though. Not sure what other Falcos do about this.

This is helkping me beat my brother now =] Thanks for more friendly advice senior PP.

lololol, thats what ive been saying.

Just press B more frequently and you'll beat falcon.

i believe my exact words to viperboy a few weekends ago were "The more buttons you press (as falco in general but especially vs Falcon), the higher your probability of winning becomes."

Lol that is funny as ****. Also love the avatar!

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

If the Falco board had a general discussion I would post this there but since they don't

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=269017

get at the man

 

[Turazrok]

How does I kill with flaco? Halp please

 

[Mogwai]

How does I kill with flaco? Halp please

very carefully...

what sort of advice are you expecting off of such a general question? when do you have problems killing someone?

 

[Turazrok]

very carefully...

what sort of advice are you expecting off of such a general question? when do you have problems killing someone?

After shine dair/bair stops working ):
Basically I can't combo into kill moves.

 

[DippnDots]

get your fingers faster, if shine bair isn't working and you're not messing up then you should be able to kill them with a tilt.

Besides that, dair, jab, laser, and nair can all lead into a fsmash. Jab and laser can also go into a dsmash. You don't always have to KO them off a single smash either (always nice though), play the edge game.

just try new things, friendlies are friendlies

 

[AnDaLe]

how do you do that double jump double laser on platform, then drop from platform laser? I can't drop fast enough.

 

[FoxLisk]

ARGH can we have a sticky for this please? i've seriously explained isai dropping at least 4 times in the last month.

when you land on a platform from a laser you have a weird kneeling animation before you can drop through the platform which animation can be canceled by basically any other action so walk forward a tiny bit to cancel it and then hit down on the control stick to fall through the platform and then hit b to laser

 

[SPAWN]

Alright, sorry for being afb(away from boards), I've been really really busy with school.

PP- I feel so bad for how many times you have to keep readdressing your points. I'm pretty sure you've made a giant guide on every character throughout this thread lol. I like how willing you are to help people, very respectable.

Also I pm'd Magus about that Peach question of dair>utilt I'll post it once I get out into my other class at 9:30

 

[SPAWN]

I know that some characters are in hitstun for different periods of time but generally doesn't dair>utilt with Falco combo? I was trying to figure out how much of a margin of error you can have when doing the dair>utilt since when you're facing in front of them you have to turn around and utilt and I don't know if that causes it to not combo or not.

If you know of any hitstun threads that I should take a look at (tried searching couldn't find much useful threads) feel free to let me know.

Thanks!

With Falco? It will vary a lot depending on their damage.

Hitstun that is 30 frames or less does not cause tumble, and since d-air has 9 lcanceled lag you can get up to a +21 advantage before it begins popping them into the air (hitstun still scales the same way after tumble but they'll be able to tech before it ends until it starts sending them a decent height). Falco's jump+SHFF time is 22 so if it isn't already known, when the 1st d-air would give around the +14 to +17 area you can do something silly like: No-Tumble D-air(hit low) -> SHFFL N-T D-air(hit at apex) -> Shine/U-tilt -> (stuff).


This is the advantage when you hit the d-air just before landing (their actual stun time would be 9 higher than what's listed). It uses the dmg before the hit and when the d-air is fresh (12%). The amount it's doing less than that would be how much more dmg they need to get the same result.

Dmg . Bowser/Mario/Falco/Jiggs
-------------------------------
00% . +05/+05/+06/+07
05% . +07/+07/+08/+09
10% . +09/+09/+10/+11
15% . +10/+11/+12/+14
20% . +12/+13/+15/+16
25% . +14/+15/+17/+19
30% . +16/+17/+19/+21
35% . +18/+19/+21/---
40% . +19/+21/---/---
45% . +21/---/---/---


Here's the weight list. You can get a good idea of what the other characters would be using the examples above.

117 - Bowser
114 - Donkey Kong
110 - Samus
109 - Ganondorf
108 - Yoshi
104 - Captain Falcon / Link
100 - Dr Mario / Luigi / Mario
94 - Ness
90 - Peach / Sheik / Zelda
88 - Ice Climbers
87 - Marth
85 - Mewtwo / Roy / Young Link
80 - Falco / Pikachu
75 - Fox
70 - Kirby
60 - Jigglypuff / Mr Game & Watch
55 - Pichu

Double post for great justice.

 

[Dr Peepee]

^ pretty cool, and thanks.

Sorry I haven't critiqued everyone that asked me to lately. I'll try to get to that sometime this week.