unknown522
Some guy
I know that shiz said that fox wins and chops said even.
but shiz says that like everybody beats falco....
but shiz says that like everybody beats falco....
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
Last I heard Shiz thought Fox one that too
but I don't get the PP argument of "Fox's aren't good enough"
but I don't get the PP argument of "Fox's aren't good enough"
Divinokage
Smash Legend
It's pretty even, more or less stage dependant. I still think that.
Ganon vs Falcon is even too! =P At least when I fight Falcons it feels that way to me, haha. I'm very comfortable fighting a Falcon with Ganon, np.
They don't abuse everything they could to win. simple.
neither do you. game is ever changing and ever evolving and there is always room for growth and mixups. right now, falco beats fox, proven time and time again by tourney matches. simple.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Haha ganon vs falcon is so momentum based as well; hit = death.
PP, do you have any specific thoughts on what fox players should be abusing more?
PP, do you have any specific thoughts on what fox players should be abusing more?
Hey i have a question for you Dr.Peepee, when you shine->Bair/Dair how do you move your fingers like.. i have been doing it wrong i guess because mine doesnt come out as fast as yours because what i have been doing is i will press down b, then move my thumb up to press y then moving my thumb down to move the cstick either right left or down and.. i think im moving my fingers wrong because no matter what i do its not fast enough.
Also how can i shine->shine really fast? Like what shouly my fingers be doing? Ive been doing this, shine, move my thumb up to the y button then after i press it i move my thumb back down to the b button to do another shine and.. it is fast but.. it doesnt come out instantly fast like yours and other top falcos so.. again what am i doing wrong and what should i be doing instead.
Thanks for your time and i hope to hear from you soon
Also how can i shine->shine really fast? Like what shouly my fingers be doing? Ive been doing this, shine, move my thumb up to the y button then after i press it i move my thumb back down to the b button to do another shine and.. it is fast but.. it doesnt come out instantly fast like yours and other top falcos so.. again what am i doing wrong and what should i be doing instead.
Thanks for your time and i hope to hear from you soon
xbombr
Smash Ace
I find it easier to press up on the control stick to cancel the shine instead of a jump button. You only go straight up, but that doesn't really matter if you're fast enough.
Also, you have to be in the air when you shine to make it work since jumps from the ground have a lag for animation on them while double jumps are instant.
So like:
Down + B
Control Stick up then press C-stick sideways asap
I can't speak for how PP does it though.
Most people slide their finger, iirc. Basically you're doing it right, but just need more practice.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here since I'm not very good at actually doing it.
Sage Osaka
Smash Ace
i actually do shine bairs by shine -> x -> left/right+a. i dont use the c stick much except for late or falling uairs with marth, but i am fully proficient in shine bairs with falco (or even fox for that matter) with my method. just gotta work on the timing i guess.
Well my fingers go from shine to X to control stick and A haha. I don't recommend doing this and recommend doing what you do though.
It's probably something you can work out with practice, but it can help if you start the shine higher up on your opponent so that you'll be closer to them when you jump if you're a little slower than you need to be.
Do you mean double shine in your second paragraph? I would think so but I've never been recorded double shining lol so that can't be it.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
^Have you ever double shined, period? 
In training mode a few times. =)
Sage Osaka
Smash Ace
i remember when pc chris was avidly working on perfecting double/multishines.
Fortress | Sveet
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one day im gonna bust out legit constant multishine shield pressure (including reactions to shine connects and rolls) and the metagame will collapse on itself.
Cyrain
Smash Ace
Just figured I'd add my thoughts about the Falco vs. Fox matchup
I don't know if people think it's scrubby to break down matchups by stage dependency or not, but I think it plays a huge roll here. As far as players of my skill level or above my skill level are concerned, I'm not a particularly deeply analytical player...I couldn't really explain my thoughts very well on why I think fox or falco wins on various stages, so I'ma just throw it out there.
YS- Slightly fox's favor
PS- Falco's favor (I know it's not neutral anymore, but people still go here all the time. It's a great level)
FD- Could go back and forth. One mistake can easily cost either character a stock here. I think if played properly, falco has a slight edge.
FoD- Slightly fox's favor
DL64- Fox's favor
BF- Falco's favor
So based on that, I think fox wins on 2 stages and has a small favor on one other while falco wins on 2 stages and has a small favor on one other.
On that count, they break even in my mind. I don't reeeaaally believe in "even" matchups, though...So if I had to give it a percent, I'd call it 55/45 fox's favor overall. Sadly, there doesn't seem to be a fox player on the same level as PP at the moment. I guess Mango's fox could be, but apparently he never tries to win anymore soooo who the **** knows?
Me, Lucky, Jman, Colbol, SilentWolf, Cactuar, Raynex, Unknown and any other top foxes I'm forgetting at the moment...All fall short. Hopefully someone will step it up in the near future and we can get some real top level fox vs. falco play.
I don't know if people think it's scrubby to break down matchups by stage dependency or not, but I think it plays a huge roll here. As far as players of my skill level or above my skill level are concerned, I'm not a particularly deeply analytical player...I couldn't really explain my thoughts very well on why I think fox or falco wins on various stages, so I'ma just throw it out there.
YS- Slightly fox's favor
PS- Falco's favor (I know it's not neutral anymore, but people still go here all the time. It's a great level)
FD- Could go back and forth. One mistake can easily cost either character a stock here. I think if played properly, falco has a slight edge.
FoD- Slightly fox's favor
DL64- Fox's favor
BF- Falco's favor
So based on that, I think fox wins on 2 stages and has a small favor on one other while falco wins on 2 stages and has a small favor on one other.
On that count, they break even in my mind. I don't reeeaaally believe in "even" matchups, though...So if I had to give it a percent, I'd call it 55/45 fox's favor overall. Sadly, there doesn't seem to be a fox player on the same level as PP at the moment. I guess Mango's fox could be, but apparently he never tries to win anymore soooo who the **** knows?
Me, Lucky, Jman, Colbol, SilentWolf, Cactuar, Raynex, Unknown and any other top foxes I'm forgetting at the moment...All fall short. Hopefully someone will step it up in the near future and we can get some real top level fox vs. falco play.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
^ interesting.
i think falco wins it on YS, FoD and barely on BF as well due to having stupid a** hitboxes and i think smaller stages help falco in the matchup cause he doesn't have to deal with fox's speed.
likewise, i think Fox wins on Dream land and FD due to bigger stage and more mobility which helps him a ton.
PS idk, its tough to call on that level.
i think falco wins it on YS, FoD and barely on BF as well due to having stupid a** hitboxes and i think smaller stages help falco in the matchup cause he doesn't have to deal with fox's speed.
likewise, i think Fox wins on Dream land and FD due to bigger stage and more mobility which helps him a ton.
PS idk, its tough to call on that level.
Sage Osaka
Smash Ace
don't leave out m2k's fox, i think it's still probably top 3 foxes even though he rarely pulls it out anymore.
Fortress | Sveet
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the platforms on PS definitely help falco more, IMO. I don't really treat this match-up as one where stage really has a big effect. I think fox has advantage on the 3 platform stages because of mobility. FD improves fox's punish but hurts his approach and defense. I dislike FoD so its one of my usual bans, but i can see how fox would have a much better time than falco on the stage.
Its a pretty even matchup, but IMO fox wins it slightly. like 52-48 or something.
Its a pretty even matchup, but IMO fox wins it slightly. like 52-48 or something.
I could be cool with this but I feel like Fox wins on FD. Falco, for all of the hype over his easy 0-deaths on that stage can't do it 4 times in a row whereas Fox can CG to upsmash to edgeguard 4 times in a row much more consistently.
Thank you all for the advice, it really helped.
Oh and Dr.Peepee i was talking about double shine/multi shine.
Also.. i havent tried this yet but this is just a thought.. wouldn't this be the fastest way to do a doubleshine.
Shine->press up on control stick->then quickly press pull it down and press b to pull out another shine. (this is the only way i can stick of that would be the fastest. (correct me if im wrong)
Oh and Dr.Peepee i was talking about double shine/multi shine.
Also.. i havent tried this yet but this is just a thought.. wouldn't this be the fastest way to do a doubleshine.
Shine->press up on control stick->then quickly press pull it down and press b to pull out another shine. (this is the only way i can stick of that would be the fastest. (correct me if im wrong)
SSBM_or_GTFO
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2011
- Messages
- 92
That's the only way I can double shine. It would be best to do whatever gives you the most consistency. Multishines are fast enough that you wouldn't need to worry about performing them as fast as possible, imho.
i just hold down and use the tip of my thumb to hit Y and the middle of my thumb to hit B for doubleshining.
Fortress | Sveet
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yeah i use Y and B to multishine. Much less total movement.
That makes sense.. i have actually done that by accident twice before and.. i haven't been able to master that movement yet but.. i will just have to try both methods out and just see which one works best for me. Thank you all for the advice 
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
The Y slide to B seems like easily the best method, although I don't think I've ever attempted to double shine as Falco.
Cyrain
Smash Ace
@Peepee that may be true, I dunno. Falco's 0-deaths are a bit less guaranteed than foxes for obvious reasons, but you still have huge damage guarantees for confirming a single shine. You also have the ability to dance all over the place and control the hell out of fox. I feel like Falco's total control on this level is a part of what gives him the edge...Not just the supremely easy combos/tech chases.
Much like Fox can pick and choose his fights on DL...I think falco can pretty much do whatever he damn well pleases on a level with no platforms.
This is just my opinion though.
Much like Fox can pick and choose his fights on DL...I think falco can pretty much do whatever he damn well pleases on a level with no platforms.
This is just my opinion though.
I won't deny that Fox has less options to deal with lasers with no platforms, but his jumping game is going far by itself as far as screwing with Falco's control, and that's without Foxes going farther into OOS game. I guess I'm saying that he can handle pressure well enough there too, just not as comfortably as he'd like.
FD is funny for any matchup lol. Weird level.
FD is funny for any matchup lol. Weird level.
Cyrain
Smash Ace
You're on SWF, but no FB where I need you =(
And you're right. It really can kind of go either way. I mean, 4 0-deaths from falco might not be easy, but honestly...It's a biiig game of who ****s up first on each stock, y'know? Not 100% of the time since no one is perfect, but still. As far as fox's OOS options, I agree. I stand behind shine OOS all the way. Have you watched my set vs. unknown? I was playing so slow and so janky, but shine oos was all I needed xD
-edit- It's even better vs. falco in my opinion. Just not quite as useful against really safe playstyles like yours.
And you're right. It really can kind of go either way. I mean, 4 0-deaths from falco might not be easy, but honestly...It's a biiig game of who ****s up first on each stock, y'know? Not 100% of the time since no one is perfect, but still. As far as fox's OOS options, I agree. I stand behind shine OOS all the way. Have you watched my set vs. unknown? I was playing so slow and so janky, but shine oos was all I needed xD
-edit- It's even better vs. falco in my opinion. Just not quite as useful against really safe playstyles like yours.
Lightsyde
Smash Champion
I think Cyrain's write up per stage might be onto something. I agree with everything except about FD, which I think favors Fox for basically the reasons that have been discussed. Fox is too fast and has too many good movement/OOS options to really be hindered by lasers.
Not to mention PS'ing or even shining a few lasers back at Falco will typically condition him into shooting more selectively so they are less of a pain overall.
EDIT: Shine OOS is one of the reasons I think Fox wins. Falco's shine OOS doesn't work very well vs really good Fox offense, and Fox's shine OOS gets him out anytime Falco touches his shield. Fox's speed makes it easier to approach with different, spaced aerials than with Falco as well.
Not to mention PS'ing or even shining a few lasers back at Falco will typically condition him into shooting more selectively so they are less of a pain overall.
EDIT: Shine OOS is one of the reasons I think Fox wins. Falco's shine OOS doesn't work very well vs really good Fox offense, and Fox's shine OOS gets him out anytime Falco touches his shield. Fox's speed makes it easier to approach with different, spaced aerials than with Falco as well.
Cyrain
Smash Ace
As far as trying to define the matchup I figure stage dependency is a decent place to start. It's obviously a lot more involved than that, but yea. Glad you agree. Hmmm, I'm curious to see if anyone else agrees with me that falco probably has the slight edge on FD.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
I agree with this somewhat. I find that Falco players are generally better at the match up, but Fox DOES actually win the match-up in a purely objectionable manner, even without delving into bull**** theorybros.
More Fox players are learning the match up though, so Falco mains are finally getting a wake up call.
Versus a Fox who knows the match up, it's so frustrating. I hate despite that I know the Fox match up very well, I still struggle to beat Foxes worse than me.
Lightsyde
Smash Champion
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well my experience is that if Falco uses unconventional tactics vs Fox, then it's not so bad.. I think I can beat decent to good Foxes with Falco now that are better than me. =P
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think it's the laser on top of everything else but you guys are convinced that Falco combos and combo sertups are worse than Fox combos so the discussion literally can't go further since that's a big thing...
At least you guys (kind of) recognize that lasers don't suck now though.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
the way the platforms work on FoD and YS, and DL's size make it far easier for Fox to get in hits and avoid them than it is for Falco due to Fox's better mobility.
BF, FD, and PS are better for Falco due to the different platform structure (or lack thereof on FD) makes it much easier for Falco to more effectively control space and limit Foxes mobility.
On FoD YS and DL, Falco has to play more risky to get anything started versus Fox. He has to essentially play it like peach and predict where Fox plans on being and put a move there and hope for the best. Lasers are almost entirely ineffective due to how easy it is for Fox to weave in and out of them and come in with a well-spaced aerial (just outside of shine range, and shine/retreat before the dtilt) making CC ineffective.
I did mean objective. Lol.
Lightsyde
Smash Champion
It's not even about the combos. They both **** each badly once the combos start, but Fox's speed makes the follow ups much easier to get (imo).
Straight up, Fox is unbelievably fast. His jump speed and his run speed are a lot better than Falco's, period. Falco has the same run speed as ****ing Ganon! Fox's movement is flat out better and used correctly avoids lasers pretty simply; that's not even getting into OOS options vs lasers/Falco's approachs. Falco has to commit to each laser and is temporarily helpless in the air while his gun is out. This makes lasering vs Fox that much more risky because of his speed and mobility on platforms. Hell, if Fox wanted to, he can run away on platformed stages forever by just camping the back edges of platforms and evading due to Falco's run speed/jump not making him good at hitting the diagonal deadzone that Peach's like to float in.
EDIT: Also, don't forget about just being able to PS and shine lasers back that more or less makes them nearly unusable if they are really consistent. The last time I played Cyrain he's PS'd like...60-70% of my lasers in neutral positions. Lasers are so overrated.
That's not even getting into Fox's UpB being arguably the best recovery in the game, while Falco's UpB is a fraction of the length and has no start up flames to complicate gimping.
Mahone
Smash Champion
if they powershield a lot, can't you just vary your laser heights and timings and incorporate blanks to counter that?
