PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[GooeyBanana]

Yeah, I don't know how he was able to shine before I was after the dair, he must have done the jump thing that you described, which I know he's capable of doing...he does a bunch of silly things so go figure xP

But uh...yeah, I guess I'm just gonna have to work on the matchup then =S

One last thing though, I just want to get an idea of how I should respond when my lasers are powershielded. I noticed PP rolled away when he was a decent distance away from M2K's Marth(I'm assuming you'd generally roll if you were in that range that Lucien described in his video where you're safe so long as you're out of the range of their longest reaching approach), and then he just jabbed when M2K was closer to him. Do you guys just generally mix up what you do after each powershield, or do you have some set response to them, depending on range, so long as your opponent never adapts to them? Of course, it's obvious you'll have to change things up if they do adapt, so I don't need that explained. Just a general idea of how you react to these things =P

Much appreciated guys. And Umbreon, I only skimmed through that because I'm currently in a rush, but the few paragraphs I did read made surprisingly a lot of sense O_O Good ish =D

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

fox and falco can shine before you can after dair up until a certain percent, or so i heard

 

[JPOBS]

i think the the opponent can shine first after eating a dair under 10%, maybe lower

this is without the jump btw

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Umbreon that post reminded me of a mentality I was once under and brought me much success.

 

[Druggedfox]

Max, AIM... either tonight if I'm up late or tomorrow when i'll definitely be up late =P

What you're saying sounds interesting, but I'm pretty sure its been apparent in most of our discussions at some point or another, no?

 

[Kira-]

Hey PP what do your parents or close family members think of your win at Pound and gaming life in general?

 

[Dr Peepee]

They don't really know about Pound and think it's dumb that I do it. <.<


I'll answer dair vs nair and respond to umbreon tomorrow. I haven't felt the urge to respond today I dunno why.

 

[l0zR=)]

Cause his A is 2 busy tallking to me on facebook right mah boy?

Im gonna learn how to fight this bird one day

 

[Divinokage]

After doing a real Falco ditto with someone good.. I now have even more respect for spacie players.. How the hell do you guys move so fast? lol..

 

[Brookman]

They don't really know about Pound and think it's dumb that I do it. <.<


I'll answer dair vs nair and respond to umbreon tomorrow. I haven't felt the urge to respond today I dunno why.

On very technical terms, your parents are right.


>_>

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well hes makin dat money. Do you care to disclose your Pound 5 total winnings (i guess i could look it up but too lazy)

 

[Dr Peepee]

I never said I disagreed with them lol.

And I don't know how much I made.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Did you get it in cash or you getting a check soon?

edit- nvm planks post says he will mail it

 

[Dr Peepee]

A check is being mailed.

 

[unknown522]

Thanks!.....and my bad. =( I need to rework my Fox game again I feel, so I wish we had played haha.

Next time for sure. Also, once you beat Hbox in loser's finals, I was so sure that you were gonna win the tourney. I was so happy for you man.

DI changes a lot of those things, but still helpful.

yep. A lot of that stuff is for style points mostly.

Yo, on the subject of that double D-air thing, on a platform you can do Dair -> Dropthrough dair -> Jump up shine platform waveland. I tested it against Falcon in training mode and got it to register as 3 hits combo. Looks pre' fly too and it means if he manages it get his shield up you wont get grabbed after your 2nd D-air.

haha, that's jokes.

Also, I combo'd 6 d-airs on doll in R3 pools on FoD (without the platform drops though). We both just kinda laughed about it when it happened.

I also combo'd 9 d-airs on DoH right after that set, again on FoD. I hit 5 d-airs with the low platform, then hit 4 more (2 being tech chases). But I missed the last d-air for the kill, lol. It did like 93% or something.

 

[Beat!]

Unknown, that compilation video you made was really legit. Thanks for posting it .

 

[ArcNatural]

fox and falco can shine before you can after dair up until a certain percent, or so i heard

wat?

Fox Falco can CC dairs at low % before you can get the shine off. I'm not sure about late dairs, but I believe those can't be cc'd.

 

[unknown522]

^ from like 0-10% or something

Unknown, that compilation video you made was really legit. Thanks for posting it .

np. It's fun to mess around with stuff.

 

[Kanelol]

pp: "YO DAWG I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW MUCH FAT DE NIRO I'M GETTING FOR LETTING PEOPLE WATCH ME PUSH ARMADA'S **** IN AT ONE OF THE BIGGEST MELEE TOURNAMENTS OF ALL TIME, NO BIGGIE, ALL DAY ERRH DAY LOLOLOL"

in unrelated news, is there any better way to punish a marth that always rolls during shield pressure? I saw you just short hop out of shine and chase the roll with a laser, which seems safer than what I do (aerial DI during a stand-still short hop towards where ever they roll, which usually misses and leads to an f-smash). It just seems like there has to be a better way.

 

[Doser]

On very technical terms, your parents are right.


>_>

Why are they correct? He's doing something he likes, I don't see how there is any technicality in that. Plus he's winning and making money, I really can't see that as being dumb, unless he is failing out of school because of it.

 

[choknater]

all day errh day!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

wat?

Fox Falco can CC dairs at low % before you can get the shine off. I'm not sure about late dairs, but I believe those can't be cc'd.

fox and falco can shine before you can, after dair, up until a certain percent, or so i heard

helpful ?

 

[ArcNatural]

helpful ?

Yes bro.

10 bros.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

On very technical terms, your parents are right.


>_>

completely disagree, that's almost implying that technically, doing things you enjoy are dumb. especially something you're good at.

 

[DJRome]

just 3 stocked dr peepee where u at

 

[Acryte]

lower body invincibility is a great counter when reading chars with attacks like marios dsmash etc, didnt know it worked against peaches though, I would have thought the hitboxes were too high but thats awesome, just don't get baited into the charge. Pretty cool on getup but dair is a better option unless near edge it could be useful.

Won't work so well against peach though, usually she is looking to combo or pressure into her dsmash or risk an overhead after they baited it, so she is all about FC bairs and stuff into it or pressuring shield into it for the poke/shield damage.

 

[~Twitch~]

wow dj i watched your samus and it was so good!

not gona lie i was legit impressed.

 

[Druggedfox]

only ***s play samus

 

[choknater]

hm i've never seen dj's samus

 

[JPOBS]

PP i remember you saying that you think Fox beats falco and mango's fox is proof in pudding.

But at Pound V you won basically every game in that matchup right?
Has your opinion on the matchup changed then?

 

[Rubyiris]

fox beats falco but pp is so much better than the fox players that it doesnt really matter

thats my outlook on it.

im able to beat falcos like foward and v3ctorman much more consistently with fox rather than my falco even though my falco is worlds better than my fox just because i know the fox vs falco match up that well.

they'd be able to vouch for my fox vs falco skills if anyone is skeptical.

 

[Dr Peepee]

pp: "YO DAWG I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW MUCH FAT DE NIRO I'M GETTING FOR LETTING PEOPLE WATCH ME PUSH ARMADA'S **** IN AT ONE OF THE BIGGEST MELEE TOURNAMENTS OF ALL TIME, NO BIGGIE, ALL DAY ERRH DAY LOLOLOL"

in unrelated news, is there any better way to punish a marth that always rolls during shield pressure? I saw you just short hop out of shine and chase the roll with a laser, which seems safer than what I do (aerial DI during a stand-still short hop towards where ever they roll, which usually misses and leads to an f-smash). It just seems like there has to be a better way.

Look at when they roll and then instead of trying to pressure just follow them.

just 3 stocked dr peepee where u at

LOL as if you'd come to play Melee with me.

PP i remember you saying that you think Fox beats falco and mango's fox is proof in pudding.

But at Pound V you won basically every game in that matchup right?
Has your opinion on the matchup changed then?

I started to think so, but then I played gayer Foxes. <.< I need to learn Falco's answer to more gay Fox things first, but yeah without Mango trying to play gayer vs me it's kinda hard to say. I might theory bros about it later.

Hopefully I'll respond with more helpful things soon lol. I'm kinda in the mood to write.

 

[Rubyiris]

falco vs gay fox is, in my opinion, the single most frustrating match up for falco in the game. fox just moves around falcos lasers until he finds an opening, then just says lol shine tech chase fox stuff, edgeguard.

 

[Aar]

falco vs gay fox is, in my opinion, the single most frustrating match up for falco in the game. fox just moves around falcos lasers until he finds an opening, then just says lol shine tech chase fox stuff, edgeguard.

Fox puts smack down on falco but nothing like jigglypuff. Nothing like jiggz. His edge game is the best if you ask me and falcos third jump doesnt cut againt the bair or reflector

 

[Dr Peepee]

Nair vs Dair

Alright, so I decided I'd finally respond to Druggedfox's post about Nair vs Dair. I doubt I'll say everything I want to because memory johns, but this should be good enough.


Dair:

Better to hit with overall at pretty much any given time(unless opponent is above like 130/is a floaty at higher damage), but riskier because it doesn't stick as far out as Nair and at lower percents people can jump into it and not take stun from it and then punish you(unless it's super delayed or something I guess). Fun to shield poke with, fun to break CCs with, better to start combos with, and better to set up kills/edgeguards(usually) with. Mid-combo, Dair is fun because it allows you to tech chase instead of halfway breaking the combo to try and catch someone as they fall(I tend to do more of the latter but I'm thinking of starting to Dair tech chase more). The idea here is to rack more damage with tech chases so that you can smash and kill or end up sending them farther offstage then just nair'ing/Bair'ing them guaranteed. Dair stuffs more attacks than Nair because of its stupid priority, and ***** bad characters.

Basically, Dair is riskier. I like to use it more when I'm certain I'll get a hit/shields are low/fighting low tiers/%s don't let me combo with Nair

Nair:

When Dair is risky basically lol. Nair sticks out in front of you so it will connect before Dair will, so you can actually stuff OOS better with it since it gets there sooner, which makes it more likely to cut options off. Nair is kinda risky in that it can be CC'd, but usually when you're approaching people will shield in case of Dair, so you'll be fine as long as your timing of approach/move choice somewhat varies. Mid/higher %s are better for Nair in general, as you can combo at mid percents(and low percents really, but the momentum from nair and the high-hitting nature of it carries over into your shine/other moves so it's harder to combo) and knock people offstage at higher %s. Nair is good for trying to combo while getting under someone(like Puff or Marth or Sheik for example, there are more that it's great vs but those came to mind first). Weak Nair is great in combos, and playing with DI between strong and weak Nairs leads to some interesting DI mixups in combos. Nair hitbox stays out pretty long too, which has its uses in edgeguarding as well as comboing and sometimes approaching.


Alright that'll do.

 

[Nicknyte]

See, I don't even know how to play falco, I'm just seein you type, yo.

:3

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sometimes you just gotta give 'em the...

LOL you started a trend I see. =p

fuck it, it's time.

I got the following excerpts from a book given to me by JesiahTEG. While they are generalized, I feel that their philosophy is particularly useful when applied more directly to any focal topic, smash included. I would like to use this as a transition into more serious theory about ascension and improvement, a sacred idea held by most players yet truly accessible by so few. I will simply post and accredit them directly.





- From The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida, Chapters 4 and 8 respectively.

Move this now to smash theory. I truly feel that one's misinformation about his/her own true talent is the main reason that many smashers are simply unable to make any notable improvements. To be frank, smash is not a hard game. Smash is, in short, a very well developed version of "king of the hill" somewhat transitioned into a fighter.

Now, let's talk technical ability. While the technical talent for smash is increasingly high all the time, the large majority of technical prowess is unnecessary. Rather, the goal for your technical ability in smash should be consistency, as much as possible and all the time. Your technical ability should augment your mental ability to make decisions, to execute whatever strategy you may have, and generally just so you can do what you want. Regardless of how talented your opponent is, there is no greater opponent than defeating yourself with poor tech skill, either by a lack of practice or by exertion of unnecessary or inconsistent button mashing. Thus, we move to our first major definition for smash debate. If anyone doesn't know this, here it is, you get it from the source:



That being said, if all you want to do as Falco is SHL, dair, and shine well, so long as you can do them when and how you want, you are technically proficient at your character. As your desire to expand your movement increases, so will your technical ability so long as you are consistently able to perform your desired motion, whatever it may be. In essence, the most technical players in the world are the most accurate and consistent ones. So next time you hear criticism of 2006 Azen having poor tech skill, you know that criticism is wrong. 2006 Azen wants to mash that C-stick all day, and is executing his decisions properly.

By this definition, I think the hardest part of expanding your arsenal is knowing what to learn. Let's break it down:

Basic Tech - this is the minimal amount of fluidity that every competent smasher should learn, regardless of character. There is really no excuse to avoid proficiency at these skills:
1. L-Canceling
2. Wavedashing
3. Crouch Canceling
4. Dash Dancing
5. Short Hopping

Character Specific - not much to say here. Understand your character!
1. Recovery Options - sweetspotting, the merits of various recoveries, and their limitations
2. Basic Combos - we're talking staples here. dair shine, laser grab, shine bair, the good stuff
3. Chaingrabbing - both how to perform and how to escape in every match-up
4. Limitations* - know what your character can and cannot do

Stages* - how your character performs on any given stage, know the full stage list prior to the tournament.
1. Stage Striking - know which 2/5 to ban against any given character (picks may be blind, be careful).
2. Stage Bans
3. Counterpick Choices

Opponent* - player, choice characters, tendencies, anything else helpful really.

This is kind of a dirty trick because half of this list [*] requires no technical ability at all, but instead requires the player to have extraneous knowledge. This is where technical ability meets fundamental decision-making, strategy, and execution. Because technical ability is rooted in your best judgment and strategy, your fingers must support your brain and not the other way around. Your mind must always be the focal point of your game play and of your improvement.

I'll continue this tomorrow. I'm looking specifically for feedback from the likes of my intellectual peers (PP, Cactus, KK, anyone in purple. You know who you are).

With all of the options a player has(useful ones only is still quite a few) I'd say this game isn't simple. Experience factors like adjusting to your environment and becoming exposed to many styles and learning how to handle tournament pressure make smash harder(just like any other tournament game). A technical barrier and free-flowing movement are all things that must be mastered/overcome(both for yourself and when reading an opponent) in order to be a successful player, which can only increase the difficulty of smash.

Just because Azen Fsmashed a lot doesn't mean everyone else can utilize such strategies as well. People need to move more these days in order to be successful(not as ridiculously fast as they try to but regardless the bar keeps being raised). I guess what I'm getting at here is my way of understanding and putting out your point to others. Yes, people can play it super simply like Azen did and be technically consistent and effective, but that doesn't work for a lot of people for either style or understanding reasons usually. My other point was that the overall barrier to be considered technically proficient with any character has also risen, so it's still difficult to achieve such a point, which I think you tried to trivialize using Azen.

Limitations for Falco should include his slow running speed. =) Maybe horizontal mobility in general is better since it includes the air....


Anyway, about the book chapters you linked:


What would one consider his improvement "edge?" I guess the point where he doesn't want to keep pushing or where it becomes inconvenient to other parts of his life? Hard to translate for me. I will say though that I always throw myself into whatever one thing I'm working on, and for the past few years that thing has been Melee. I think, like the book suggested, that this was rooted in some desire to be respected so that I could avoid what I thought of my own worth(before I became good at smash, I always had a bad opinion of myself).

That thing about improvement is interesting, but I always see people fluctuating on how motivated to improve. I wonder if this is human or if those people are TRULY dedicated to improving then? I know my drive hadn't fluctuated until emotional BS got in the way of Melee, but it's back and I'm pretty regularly interested in improving, although I "practice" in different ways now than I used to(thinking more than playing these days).

Anyway, this edge obviously varies from person to person, based on their circumstances(like free time) and personality and such. I think an important concept to note here is that, no matter what your edge is or where it's placed, you can always improve or grow as long as you push yourself past your comfort zone(but not painfully far to the point of stress). I used to stress myself out and get mad when I was learning/playing with Twitch, but that would never really help me learn until I learned to control my emotions and keep them away or use them to fuel my focus and help me learn more. Everyone has their own personal struggles, and I believe that Melee, like real life(as the book suggests), is just another way to challenge yourself past your "edge" and develop in a way that you can appreciate for yourself and others naturally will too.



Sorry if that was kinda all over the place I enjoyed thinking about this lol.

 

[Black_jo]

After doing a real Falco ditto with someone good.. I now have even more respect for spacie players.. How the hell do you guys move so fast? lol..

who? lol
bam?

 

[DJRome]

LOL as if you'd come to play Melee with me.

easy bait

 

[Deleted member]

Sorry if that was kinda all over the place I enjoyed thinking about this lol.

I wasn't trying to trivialize or frame anything using Azen as an example, merely reinforcing the point of consistency for my definition. I'm just always started at how few players understand what it actually means to have technical proficiency.

You're allowed to be all over the place. Even if you were a terrible player, I'd value your input on its sincerity of purpose.

This thread really needs more theory in it, just for the hell of it and to keep things interesting.