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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
2,665
Location
Atlanta
Yo PP could you talk about when to use nair vs dair? It's a pretty basic idea, I know, but the more I think about it, observe my play, and watch you play... the more I question a lot of the decisions between the two moves; I say this after watching you play against armada/amsah, if you're curious.
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
d(^_^)
Still waiting for a Falcon to crack top 3 at a national
Guess I might just have to step it up an do it myself >:D
 

DJRome

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
5,557
Location
GA all dai
what strategies do you work on to beat me?
That's what I like to hear! =)



Alright, I'll answer this then go to bed. *M2K if any of this bothers you I apologize in advance. <3


M2K....is a lot like me. Or maybe I'm more like him? We're like each other. It feels that way to me, anyway. We both like to counter things. We both get the most out of studying something and then having a nice and neat strategy planned out beforehand. The way we have developed now it's like M2K is much more static but better at punishing(or rather he has more guaranteed punishes whereas mine are more variable). I feel as though I excel past him in reading mid-game(a skill I worked hard to surpass him in, and one I'm admittedly still trying very hard to work on....there is so much more I feel I could see and come up with and everything I do is so narrow-minded when the pressure is on...but this is a long train of thought that can be saved for something else), among other things.

See, if M2K were more confident vs me, were more warm without Brawl distracting him, or didn't blow SO BADLY vs Falco it would be harder for me to control him(partly because he's top level and therefore has a concrete strategy/reaction format that I can learn/exploit....this is why I struggle vs some people that aren't quite as good but that's another tangent as well) and he could get his better punishment game going. In addition to that, he rides momentum extra well and this allows him to mess up less. M2K loses before he even plugs in vs me now because he psychs himself out, but I know what he's going to do to an extent(he only uses a few simple options during a few small windows of pressure, etc that I can easily adjust my strategy to because I know that's what he'll change). You see, when I play someone, I get a general "feel" for how they play(I can re-create trouble scenarios in my head if I watch a video or remember a match and then work on as many ways to solve it and how it affects the match and momentum and the matchup and all of my other mixups, etc for every single one) and what a matchup is like based off of that person. The more I play, the more I learn about players and characters. M2K, in his already reduced adaptive state from what I mentioned already, has it that much worse that I have videos to learn even more about him from(I don't watch them much and certainly won't much at all this time because it makes me feel bad....) and he's getting less on average out of the videos than I am I think(well, we get different things out, so maybe I'm being ignorant with that statement.....yeah I am, but I'm leaving it anyway so you guys will know).


Somewhere in there is your answer I think. <.< This is why I was gonna start a blog lol. I do this tangent stuff too much....
 

strawhats

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Messages
4,273
Location
Bronx
Dr.PP - " I have M2K strategy with Mango adaptation, ya I'm unbeatable."
So...PP carries the spirit of m2k(the old one) with him :)

Seriously though, who is mango's best character?

Puff/falco?

I've always said PP's the m2k of falco.
 

kalamazhu

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
450
Location
DCDS room 104
@tarheel: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............

That's an interesting idea. I'll play around with it and see if I can do that in a way that makes it helpful for everyone.



LOL yeah I dunno I felt like I could kill him well and contain him better on YS. I didn't want to go to PS because I wanted a smaller stage since I won on BF, lost on FD, and could kill early. I just felt like if I wanted to win I had to learn to make the most of that CP before I moved on lol.
do u remember what he banned?
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
mango's brilliant for his reads and his confidence in punishing them more than for his adaptation. PP's at least as good at adapting and not as good/confident at reads, from what I've seen. although still amazing, of course.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,766
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Yo PP could you talk about when to use nair vs dair? It's a pretty basic idea, I know, but the more I think about it, observe my play, and watch you play... the more I question a lot of the decisions between the two moves; I say this after watching you play against armada/amsah, if you're curious.
I will answer this later tonight. =)

peepee's so beast.

Good **** on winning P5 man. Such great matches to watch.

Also, we didn't get to play again :(.
Thanks!.....and my bad. =( I need to rework my Fox game again I feel, so I wish we had played haha.

DI changes a lot of those things, but still helpful.

So...PP carries the spirit of m2k(the old one) with him :)

Seriously though, who is mango's best character?

Puff/falco?

I've always said PP's the m2k of falco.
His spacies may be better at different matchups, and his Fox is undeniably his best in teams(from things I've heard, not seen). I don't see/play enough of his puff to know where it is honestly. It's impossible for me to say.

do u remember what he banned?
Rainbow Cruise
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,766
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Yeah back when I started playing I mained Mario. Went him for the first few months I played with a little Falco and Marth on the side(you can thank Overswarm's tutorial videos for teaching me how to play them enough to get started). I gradually began using all 3 of them together, and at my third tournament in early January 2008 in a SC tournament hosted by Scha-K-47, I got like 9th or something(lost to Yay and then T-bag from GA in losers). I was pissed so I decided I wanted to choose Falco or Marth so I didn't ever do that badly again. I found Soft on a tv and we friendlied and I told him to look at both of my characters and help me decide. He ended up saying my Falco was better, and even though I wanted to use Marth more at the time I took it into consideration.

Then I went home and tried to play Marth anyway. Twitch kept picking sheik on it(way easier than Fox at the time), and I got sooooo mad at that matchup that I picked Falco so I could do fine(this is low-mid level in early 08 lol). It just kind of went from there lol.


I got 4th at my first tourney with Mario btw. It was cool. =p
 

GooeyBanana

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
1,653
Location
East Peoria, Illinois
Ok, I'm slowly(VERY SLOWLY) picking up Falco...and I'm having a hard time with something. It's mostly relevant when I'm playing against Foxes or other Falcos. Basically, when I go in to dair someone and then want to pillar, instead I'm hit with their shine into **** because they CC'd my dair. What's the most efficient way to punish this? Should I just go with my gut feeling and assume they'll CC it and spot dodge? Very annoying, especially since my Fox friend is technical as eff and will do something major to me off that CC shine >_<

Also, for platform dropping lasers, does anyone have any recommendation on how to do it more smoothly? Right now, I just slowly rotate the stick to drop through, but it's so awkward going from doing technical, fast stuff and then stop to do something precise like that. Anyone mind shedding some light on this, if at all possible =P? If it's how I have to do it, then I guess I'll have to learn to adapt ;P

When holding onto the ledge, what's the smartest choices to make? Ex: just standing up from ledge, rolling, jumping, ledgehop double laser, doing a ledgehop aerial(and which aerial would be the best choice? I'd assume late nair...for some dumb reason I always do early dairs and get ***** =(...). Also, is doing upB stalling a good idea? I feel like it'll distract them from edgeguarding you for a brief second so long as you don't do it often.

I had more questions to ask, but I had an Alzheimer's attack, so I'll have to get back to y'all soon.
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
the smartest choice to make depends on like literally everything ever. if you're going to be stubborn and only ever do one thing, ledgedash is the only reasonable option to always do, but even that will get you ***** eventually.

i think we need a thread titled "things you should know by now" and include things like: don't always get up from the stage the same way, you're losing to your friend's marth because you're not waiting for him to fsmash, don't uptilt in front of people's shields so much, etc.
 

Winston

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
3,562
Location
Seattle, WA (slightly north of U-District)
Basically, when I go in to dair someone and then want to pillar, instead I'm hit with their shine into **** because they CC'd my dair.
Something's wrong here. Dair can't be CCed. Are you sure you're fastfalling and l-canceling correctly, and timing it reasonably?

Dair can be countered at low percents by jumping before the dair hits and shining (or something) right after, but that's rarely done intentionally at this point.
 

X1-12

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 18, 2009
Messages
2,023
Location
Southampton, UK
Yo, on the subject of that double D-air thing, on a platform you can do Dair -> Dropthrough dair -> Jump up shine platform waveland. I tested it against Falcon in training mode and got it to register as 3 hits combo. Looks pre' fly too and it means if he manages it get his shield up you wont get grabbed after your 2nd D-air.


While I'm passing through, may as well say PP da bess. I totally called it that you'd be the next top player
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
fuck it, it's time.

I got the following excerpts from a book given to me by JesiahTEG. While they are generalized, I feel that their philosophy is particularly useful when applied more directly to any focal topic, smash included. I would like to use this as a transition into more serious theory about ascension and improvement, a sacred idea held by most players yet truly accessible by so few. I will simply post and accredit them directly.

Know Your Real Edge and Don't Fake It

It is honorable for a man to admit his fears, resistance, and edge of practice. It is simply true that each man has his limit, his capacity for growth, and his destiny. But it is dishonorable for him to lie to himself or others about his real place. He shouldn't pretend he is more enlightened than he is—nor should he stop short of his actual edge. The more a man is playing his real edge, the more valuable he is as good company for other men, the more he can be trusted to be authentic and fully present. Where a man's edge is located is less important than whether he is actually living his edge in truth, rather than being lazy or deluded.

Pick an area of your life: perhaps your intimate relationship, your career, your relationship with your children, or your spiritual practice. For instance, you are currently doing something to earn a living. Where do your fears stop you from making a larger contribution to mankind, from earning a higher income, or from earning money in a more creative and enjoyable way? If you were absolutely fearless, would you be earning a living in exactly the same way as you are now? Your edge is where you stop short, or where you compromise your fullest gift, and, instead, cater to your fears.

Have you lost touch with the fears that are limiting and shaping your income and style of livelihood? If you have deluded yourself and feel that you are not afraid, then you are lying to yourself. All men are afraid, unless they are perfectly free. If you cannot admit this, you are pretending to yourself, and to others. Your friends will feel your fear, even if you do not. Thus, they will lose trust in you, knowing you are deluding yourself, lying to yourself, and are therefore likely to lie to them, consciously or unconsciously.

Or, perhaps you are very aware of your fears: your fear to take risks, your fear of failing, or your fear of succeeding. Perhaps you are comfortable with your life, and you fear the lifestyle change that might accompany a change in career, even though the new career will be closer to what you really want to do with your life. Some men fear the feeling of fear and therefore don't even approach their edge. They choose a job they know they can do well and easily, and don't even approach the fullest giving of their gift. Their lives are relatively secure and comfortable, but dead. They lack the aliveness, the depth, and the inspirational energy that is the sign of a man living at his edge. If you are this kind of man who is hanging back, working hard perhaps, but not at your real edge, other men will not be able to trust that you can and will help them live at their edge and give their fullest gift.

As an experiment, describe your edge with respect to your career out loud to yourself. Say something like, "I know I could be earning more money, but I am too lazy to put in the extra hours it would take. I know that I could give more of my true gift, but I am afraid that I may not succeed, and then I will be a penniless failure. I've spent 15 years developing my career, and I'm afraid to let go of it and start fresh, even though I know that I spend most of my life doing things I have no real interest in doing. I could be making money in more creative ways, but I spend too much time watching TV rather than being creative."

Honor your edge. Honor your choices. Be honest with yourself about them. Be honest with your friends about them. A fearful man who knows he is fearful is far more trustable than a fearful man who isn't aware of his fear. And a fearful man who still leans into his fear, living at his edge and putting his gift out from there, is more trustworthy and more inspirational than a fearful man who hangs back in the comfort zone, unwilling to even experience his fear on a day to day level. A free man is free to acknowledge his fears, without hiding them, or hiding from them. Live with your lips pressed against your fears, kissing your fears, neither pulling back nor aggressively violating them.
Lean Just Beyond Your Edge

In any given moment, a man's growth is optimized if he leans just beyond his edge, his capacity, his fear. He should not be too lazy, happily stagnating in the zone of security and comfort. Nor should he push far beyond his edge, stressing himself unnecessarily, unable to metabolize his experience. He should lean just slightly beyond the edge of fear and discomfort. Constantly. In everything he does.

Once you are honest with yourself about your real edge, it is best to lean just beyond it. Very few men have the guts for this practice. Most men either settle for the easy path or self-aggrandize themselves by taking the extreme hard path. Your insecurity may cause you to doubt yourself, and so you take the easy way, not even approaching your real edge or your real gift. Alternatively, your insecurity may lead you to push, push, push, seeking to become victorious over your own sense of lack.

Both approaches avoid your actual condition in the moment, which is often fear. If you are stressfully avoiding your fear, you cannot relax into the fearless.
Your fear is the sharpest definition of your self. You should know it. You should feel it virtually constantly. Fear needs to become your friend, so that you are no longer uncomfortable with it. Rather, primary fear shows you that you are at your edge. Staying with the fear, staying at your edge, allows real transformation to occur. Neither lazy nor aggressive, playing your edge allows you to perceive the moment with the least amount of distortion. You are willing to be with what is, rather than trying to escape it by pulling back from it, or trying to escape it by pushing beyond it into some future goal.

Fear of fear may lead you to hang back, living a lesser life than you are capable. Fear of fear may lead you to push ahead, living a false life, off-center, tense and missing the moment. But the capacity to feel this moment, including your fear, without trying to escape it, creates a state of alive and humble spontaneity. You are ready for the unknown as it unfolds, since you are not pulled back or pushed forward from the horizon of the moment. You are hanging right over the edge.

By leaning just beyond your fear, you challenge your limits compassionately, without trying to escape the feeling of fear itself. You step beyond the solid ground of security with an open heart. You stand in the space of unknowingness, raw and awake. Here, the gravity of deep being will attend you to the only place where fear is obsolete: the eternal free fall of home. Where you always are.

Own your fear, and lean just beyond it. In every aspect of your life. Starting now.
- From The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida, Chapters 4 and 8 respectively.

Move this now to smash theory. I truly feel that one's misinformation about his/her own true talent is the main reason that many smashers are simply unable to make any notable improvements. To be frank, smash is not a hard game. Smash is, in short, a very well developed version of "king of the hill" somewhat transitioned into a fighter.

Now, let's talk technical ability. While the technical talent for smash is increasingly high all the time, the large majority of technical prowess is unnecessary. Rather, the goal for your technical ability in smash should be consistency, as much as possible and all the time. Your technical ability should augment your mental ability to make decisions, to execute whatever strategy you may have, and generally just so you can do what you want. Regardless of how talented your opponent is, there is no greater opponent than defeating yourself with poor tech skill, either by a lack of practice or by exertion of unnecessary or inconsistent button mashing. Thus, we move to our first major definition for smash debate. If anyone doesn't know this, here it is, you get it from the source:

Technical Ability - Ability of input such that you (the player) are proficiently able to do whatever it is that you want to do.
That being said, if all you want to do as Falco is SHL, dair, and shine well, so long as you can do them when and how you want, you are technically proficient at your character. As your desire to expand your movement increases, so will your technical ability so long as you are consistently able to perform your desired motion, whatever it may be. In essence, the most technical players in the world are the most accurate and consistent ones. So next time you hear criticism of 2006 Azen having poor tech skill, you know that criticism is wrong. 2006 Azen wants to mash that C-stick all day, and is executing his decisions properly.

By this definition, I think the hardest part of expanding your arsenal is knowing what to learn. Let's break it down:

Basic Tech - this is the minimal amount of fluidity that every competent smasher should learn, regardless of character. There is really no excuse to avoid proficiency at these skills:
1. L-Canceling
2. Wavedashing
3. Crouch Canceling
4. Dash Dancing
5. Short Hopping

Character Specific - not much to say here. Understand your character!
1. Recovery Options - sweetspotting, the merits of various recoveries, and their limitations
2. Basic Combos - we're talking staples here. dair shine, laser grab, shine bair, the good stuff
3. Chaingrabbing - both how to perform and how to escape in every match-up
4. Limitations* - know what your character can and cannot do

Stages* - how your character performs on any given stage, know the full stage list prior to the tournament.
1. Stage Striking - know which 2/5 to ban against any given character (picks may be blind, be careful).
2. Stage Bans
3. Counterpick Choices

Opponent* - player, choice characters, tendencies, anything else helpful really.

This is kind of a dirty trick because half of this list [*] requires no technical ability at all, but instead requires the player to have extraneous knowledge. This is where technical ability meets fundamental decision-making, strategy, and execution. Because technical ability is rooted in your best judgment and strategy, your fingers must support your brain and not the other way around. Your mind must always be the focal point of your game play and of your improvement.

I'll continue this tomorrow. I'm looking specifically for feedback from the likes of my intellectual peers (PP, Cactus, KK, anyone in purple. You know who you are).
 
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