Pound 4: Ban Mute City?

[Pink Shinobi]

But then a tyranny of the majority will oppress the minority through the proposition, and gays can't get married and Peach can't have mute city.

Aww, you gotta have a lil faith in the smashers DoH. I mean, I don't think most smashers think mute city is broken as hell. I could be wrong.

And, that's why you need to get your peers and family members to vote! Make them join the smash forums!

 

[DoH]

People won't be voting on whether or not they think Mute is broken; they'll vote on their own vested self interest. People who don't play Peach or Puff vastly outnumber Peach/Puff players, and they'll vote for what serves their best interests.

 

[MacD]

lovage and other's said it's stupid to turn it off, they said it shouldn't be banned and that's comming from a fox player

but they'll vote for thier best, which is this case is not how it's been in the past

and i waited in line for 2 hours to vote, too bad only 2 of the 3 props i voted for went the way i hoped

 

[Europhoria]

I'm a Marth player and I'm all for leaving Mute City on. >_> I'd rather fight Peach/Jiggs there then a space animal on Cruise/DK 64/Floats/Japes/Corneria/Green Greens.

 

[Strong Badam]

i think this is funny because plank is banning mute city because he doesn't like the stage.

 

[Plairnkk]

I never once said that, I said I don't think it's fair and that I don't think it fits into the game as a legitimate counterpick. Don't assume things. I've won way more tourney sets by abusing Mute City, whereas I've lost maybe one set EVER on it.

 

[Dark_Crono]

wtf xD... theres no need to ban those stages.
Ill vote for no even if theres no poll

 

[Kouryuu]

I never once said that, I said I don't think it's fair and that I don't think it fits into the game as a legitimate counterpick. Don't assume things. I've won way more tourney sets by abusing Mute City, whereas I've lost maybe one set EVER on it.

Even though I'm not pleased that Mute City is banned, I think with that same logic, you should go ahead and ban Pokefloats as well. It's just as, if not worse than Mute City.

 

[Rubyiris]

I'm still saddened that Green Greens is banned. >:

 

[Archangel]

Even though I'm not pleased that Mute City is banned, I think with that same logic, you should go ahead and ban Pokefloats as well. It's just as, if not worse than Mute City.

I have to agree. That stage Sucks Bawls IMO.

 

[exarch]

The major problem with almost all of the arguments in here is none of them take into account that there really is not true standard for what constitutes "fair" and "unfair" in this game.

The stages evolved as the tier list did. The original randoms were chosen because of how they looked: symmetrical and looked like they were boring enough to be called neutral. (I'm not saying this is the explicit reasoning behind them, but they all have extremely similar properties--compared with the variation found in other stages.)

So based on the neutrals which were adopted as smash progressed, fox and marth became the best characters. Well if your best counterpicks are the neutrals, of course you're going to be winning a lot. So the question is, how much is fox and marth being the best in the game and effect of the stages which are considered "neutral?"

An illustration: What would have happened to the community had FD, BF, DL, DK64, MC and Brinstar been selected as the "neutrals?" Peach and Puff are the best in the game now. If you're saying "well of course those wouldn't have been the neutrals, they're too advantageous for Peach and Puff," take a step back and apply the same logic to the neutrals as they are now and Fox and Marth. If that doesn't make any sense to you, you should come back to this post when you learn to think critically. (No offense.)

As we take it now, we as a community define the "neutral" levels based on convention and tradition. If we accept these two things as authoritative, then marth and fox really are the best characters in the game. If not, we need to figure out a new definition of "neutral."

I suggest we define "neutral" stages as the ones which balance the game the most, give the most characters a chance to win. Banning Mute is counter to making the game balanced: the best peach CP is banned. (The reason most peaches rely on it like a crutch is because it is the single best CP they have. Foxes have about 4 extremely good CP's, and marth's **** stages are already called "neutral." Having one really good CP is the exact OPPOSITE of good reasoning for banning a stage.)


TL;DR (Skip this if you've read the rest, duh):
"Neutal" stages are currently defined as such solely because of convention and tradition. "Neutral" stages should be the ones which balance the game the best.

The proper step to balancing the game is to ban a stage which is good for Marth/Fox/Falco/Sheik and making one that slightly favors Jiggs/CF/Peach/Ganon/Doc moreavailable.

Banning Mute City is, in fact, breaking the game more in favor of those characters who have become top tier based on how "neutrals" are currently defined.

---------
Final Note:
IMO DK64 should be neutral and FoD should be CP:
FoD takes away a neutral from Marth, Falco, Sheik (and to a lesser extent Fox.) It also bolsters CF (and Ganon) who do not like the stage.
DK64 adds to Peach, Jiggs, CF, Ganon, and Samus. Overall, this closes the gap between the tiers and makes the game more fair.
Plus FoD many times never becomes unbanned after Teams so it frequently doesn't get played as a neutral in tournaments anyways.

 

[Quaz]

actually DK64 favors fox to camp more on those high side platforms where its hard to catch him <_<

 

[DrewB008]

exarch's whole post is bull****, neutral stages shouldnt punish good characters and reward bad ones. neutral stages should affect the fighting as little as possible, therefore, unfortunately, they should imbalance the game as much as possible by allowing characters to do everything they are capable of without dumb **** getting in the way

and yeah space animals **** on dk64 but hey please do put that on random and take off FoD i hate that level

 

[Archangel]

exarch's whole post is bull****, neutral stages shouldnt punish good characters and reward bad ones. neutral stages should affect the fighting as little as possible, therefore, unfortunately, they should imbalance the game as much as possible by allowing characters to do everything they are capable of without dumb **** getting in the way

and yeah space animals **** on dk64 but hey please do put that on random and take off FoD i hate that level

I agree 100%, Exarch made the kind of conceited post I dislike. (No Offence) but you sound like the guy that thinks he smart. So he typed up this novel bs supposedly thinking critically and carefully. Well I'm a psych major so I know all about critical reading and thinking but it doesn't really apply to this game at all. At least not the way we play it. It's kinda difficult to look at the rules unbiassedly but not impossible. However what characters you use and your own personal preferences can't help but interfere with what stages you want to be Randoms, Counters, or Banned.

 

[Kouryuu]

exarch's whole post is bull****, neutral stages shouldnt punish good characters and reward bad ones. neutral stages should affect the fighting as little as possible, therefore, unfortunately, they should imbalance the game as much as possible by allowing characters to do everything they are capable of without dumb **** getting in the way

This.


.

 

[Plairnkk]

Yeah sorry Exarch but I disagree 100%, LOL

 

[kirbstir]

Let's not forget what the debate is about by saying Mute is a neutral. Mute is definitely a counter-pick; the argument is how broken that counter-pick really is.

 

[JFox]

exarch, your logic is to use stages to help balance the tier list, which is how a lot of people think, but its a bad way to think. By that logic, you could make an argument for the most terribad stages just because they balance the tier list. For example, you could claim that Brinstar depths should be legal because it hurts the higher tiers while giving the lower characters a big crutch, which balances the game further. I think that alone should show you the flaw in your argument, cuz no one should agree with me that we should make brinstar depths a tournament legal stage, lol.

 

[exarch]

Jfox: No doubt; I believe I said only to a certain extent the logic works (maybe I didn't.) But Depths is banned because people randomly fall through, temple is banned because certain characters are uncatchable, Icy Mt. is banned because you can't actually play there. I'm not arguing against those reasons for banning stages.

they should imbalance the game as much as possible by allowing characters to do everything they are capable of

Part of what characters are capable of is reacting to and playing off of stage hazards. By not allowing those stages, we nerf characters who are better at it than others. Does that make my point clear?

Arrows: No offense taken. I was a math major and we learned critical thinking can be applied to everything.

--As for spacies camping, I'm from FL where our spacies usually attack people. I thought camping might be a bad thing on that level, but wasn't sure (since I haven't come against it.) Since that's the case then don't do that but consider another level. Also EC: Get camped. *rolls eyes at the excessively different playstyles between regions*

Mute should be CP because plenty of characters can beat peach on it, and several can beat puff.

 

[DrewB008]

a neutral stage should be neutral in the literal sense of the term, as in not directly taking part in the battle via stage hazards

its neutrality should not be measured based on the advantages it gives to certain characters, it is measured based on the degree to which it acts within the battle

counterpicks should be measured the same way in my opinion, instead of focusing on how good they are for different characters you should focus on the degree to which they change the game and affect the fighting

this change can come in the form of movement of the level, stage hazards, shape of the level, or a combination of these

so instead of arguing about whether or not peach is as good on mute as fox is on corneria, people should be arguing about whether or not the stages stray too far from the neutral standard of not changing at all while being a relatively fair shape

 

[Atlus8]

Yay! Ban Mute City and Green Greens! They are both so terrible for tournament play!

 

[Rubyiris]

Honestly, neither Mute City, or Floats should be banned. There aren't any random/pseudo-random characteristics about either stage.

Furthermore, Mute City doesn't have a walk-off ledge. Floats does, but only at certain parts of the stage, for very short periods of time. Because both stages constantly move, there aren't any inherent advantages to defensive, or aggressive play. The stages themselves also aren't "broken." to the point of warranting a ban.

Green Greens should be, but that doesn't mean I want it to be. </3

 

[DrewB008]

random elements dont necessarily automatically make a stage banworthy, nor are they the only criteria worth considering

stadium and dreamland both have random factors, as do several characters even

hyrule temple doesnt have random elements or a walk off ledge, same with fourside, brinstar depths, and many other levels

i think japes, corneria, green greens and mute are all worse than floats, but i'd like it if all of those were banned anyway

 

[pockyD]

pokemon stadium should not be neutral!

 

[Razor]

well, i actually think brinstar is more broken than mute bc you can actually break apart the stage and affect the landscape. plus i don't think it's possible to avoid the lava in a high level match. plus, even if you ban green greens or corneria, i doubt it would cause this same kind of ruckus. fox's quality as a char is not stage-dependant.

pokemon stadium is a decent peach stage bc the stage changes can benefit her. i've gotten way more stiches on that stage than any other. plus it's really wide, so you can live a while sidways. i don't think it's really neutral tho. fod is probably just as neutral as stadium.

and if why are we talking about fundamental definitions of neutral?? counter-pick stages are counter picks. i think ppl should talk about what constitutes an acceptable "counterpick".i don't think mute, brinstar, green greens, or jungle japes should be allowed. pokefloats and cruise aren't as bad as i used to think.

 

[DrewB008]

im just talking about the practice of placing stages in certain categories in general, and since we clearly chose neutral stages based on their neutrality in the match as opposed to their benefits to different characters, the same method should be used in judging counterpicks

breaking brinstar apart doesnt really do much of anything, it creates a hole in the middle thats really easy to avoid but thats it. in my experience, especially lately, brinstar is really not a bad level at all, once you get used to the ledges its practically dreamland plus a little acid. i even think falco is great there, the platforms are well placed for him and he cant get gimped when the acid is present

get used to a few things and you can play it just like any other level pretty much, whereas mute never has ledges no matter how used you get to it, and cars are sometimes impossible to predict and react to

 

[S.G.]

I believe the only reason why this is subject to argument, when it has never truly applied in a tournament setting before, is that Plank made the decision to ban the stage off of his reasoning. As a TO, I think a better rationale would have been to take the community's opinion. Actually, not even just a legitimate rationale, but more of an obligation to the people he wishes to bring to his event.

 

[TyrantWolf]

Plank banned the stage because a stage without edges is a stage without edge planking.


Plank <33 but you know it's true.


But by the vote count it seems like the stage won't be banned.

 

[Mikey Lenetia]

If any stages should be banned that aren't, Poke Floats should be.

Very few/no ledges, moving platforms, caves to live forever, random things to tech, random things to fall through, suicide KOs by holding people, walk off ledges, absurdly low ceiling, encourages camping, and the stage CAN KILL YOU WHILE COMING DOWN ON THE REVIVAL PLATFORM.

I can see where people would want to auto-ban Mute from the whole thing. People complain all the time about that stage. However, several top Peach players at various times have been beaten there by their competition. That and the stage doesn't have nearly the amount of shenanigans as I've listed above. It may favor Peach, Jiggly, and Samus, who don't necessarily need ledges to get back, but it's also hard FOR those characters to come back if they're knocked off the stage at certain points. You try getting down there with Marth waiting for you to come into his sword range while it's traveling back toward the starting area where there's no road to bounce off of with Peach and tell me it's always in her favor. If anything, Mute shows how the roles of Fox and Falco are reversed, where they're extremely hard to get off the stage but can be easy to keep off of it. This time it's Peach, Jigglypuff, and Samus that are hard to get off and can be easy to keep knocking back off the stage at key points of the stage.

I'm more for equal opportunity. If you're going to ban Mute, which I'm against because I've gotten first-hand proof from the many tournaments I've seen, played at, and whatnot and know it's entirely possible for Peach to lose on her 'beloved' stage, then ban something that's also far worse for more reasons like Poke Floats. ^_^

I'm still going to this no matter what happens. I know I'd prefer it to not be banned, but eh. As long as I still have fun, I won't mind a bit. Just thought I'd throw my two cents out there, random or not.

EDIT: And I see this discussion has been dead, but eh. Tired me makes for interesting introspectiveness, and it took a while to make, so I'll leave it be for now.

 

[DoH]

I talked to plank yesterday at a tournament and he said it probably won't be banned

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Aight, here's my opinion about mute city being banned, take it how you will.

__

The way I see it, they're justified in banning mute, but at the same time it's unfair.

They're justified because unless a miracle happens, it's a stage that peach, jiggs, and samus WILL win on. That's a fact. The stage is made for them and everybody knows it. They dont need ledges to recovery and this is a 20 year old fact for an 8 year old game.

But the big thing is it really is unfair to take it away from you guys (moreso you guys (Peaches) and Samus). It's one of the few stages where you ALWAYS have a clear cut advantage over the other character (unless they play one of the 3 characters.) Now yes, but logic of why stages were normally banned, that actually does constitute mute city being banned, "If you're not playing one of those 3 characters, you're at a huge natural disadvantage", but at the same time, I DONT SEE WHY THE **** PEOPLE DONT JUST BAN MUTE AGAINST YOU PEOPLE ANYWAY. It's not like it's netural, so it's SUPPOSED to be kinda unfair for one side (although again, I will admit that it is extreme in your case) I mean realistically, no other stages gives you people (specifically peach/jiggs for this one) an unfair advantage. Yes, you get an advantage on brinstar, but it's nowhere near as bad as mute city. Heck, Mute city being bad really comes down to specific matchups, cause I'd image some characters would rather fight you on mute city than brinstar.

Realistically, look at how many people dont ban mute city against Armada and Hbox, and look what usually happens to those people in a set.

In the end, both sides of this arguement are justified. Just chalk it up as a learning experience if you're a person who kinda depends on Mute City. (I mean ****, Ima doc main and I'm kinda shaking at the fact I wont have it.)

__

You've got other stages, you'll just have to CP against player habits instead of CPing character abilities.

If that is their reasoning that Peach has a clear advantage so ban it then the logic is already flawed. There are neutrals and then there are counter picks. Counter picks are used to gain that edge. That's it. Pound4 is whack. A lot of TO's have there own little spins, if I were to run anything again I'd stay doing it 5stocks, it's what I do. Taking out a stage like that is out of hand especially when the wins aren't from being camped but from being edge guarded. That sounds pretty legit to me.

 

[lloDownedu74]

I've been noticing that at tournaments, non-Peach mainers tend to CP mute city and go peach. They usually don't win there because they don't main Peach, but they do pretty well. I find this interesting, because I guess some people think that it's an auto-win for Peach there

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

I've been noticing that at tournaments, non-Peach mainers tend to CP mute city and go peach. They usually don't win there because they don't main Peach, but they do pretty well. I find this interesting, because I guess some people think that it's an auto-win for Peach there

Not vs Ganon.

-Accepting all MMs.

 

[nicaboy]

Wow thats mad whack im probably not going to pound 4 anyway due to money issues. Man I gotta say though im loving peach alot recently give space animals the buisnnes and all.


also dogy is so insightful his whole post is amazing.

 

[shounenkel]

okay...sooo what about them really campy fox, gay *** maps peach will get **** from fox's wow. I'm from the bahamas, and i was thinking about going too Pound 4, and wow i'm thinking about not going anymore cuz, i know what a really campy fox could do P.S(Jman gayest fox player ever), i play one like everyday, and when i really wanna win i need MC and BS, really this is so unfair, >_< i'll just go and get **** by a campy fox mostly i'll meet one on the way, MY gods (sad face)

 

[Plairnkk]

the rules have been changed and its allowed, incase you guys missed it

 

[Byron 1337]

Mute city sux

 

[XIF]

Don't give in Plairnkk, stand your ground.

To every Peach in here:

If you think Mute should stay and that you need it as Peach players, then you just need to man up and quit using dumb stages as a crutch for actual skill. Or worse, hoping for the cars to do the work for you. Great job, you won because you can float above cars while other characters have to waste jumps, mobility, options, and risk stocks. You're not good for winning on mute, quit feeling good about yourself.

The thing is that Fox players don't deserve to get Green Greens or Corneria either. Getting a win because you can implement a simple strategy that requires far too much effort to overcome isn't skill with a stage, it's ********. I don't need to go through an obstacle course just to be able to try to hurt my opponent.

If it isn't fair first round, why the heck is it suddenly fair 2nd and 3rd round?

Mute City is dumb
Green Greens is dumb
CP stages are dumb.

Random factors galore, and insurmountable matchups make for great times right? I enter tournaments to beat my opponents 1 vs 1, not 1 vs 1 vs Stage vs Slippy vs Birdo vs Bombs vs whatever the heck fvcking mario party BS this game has.

 

[choknater]

dayum xif gettin off

i supported mute until i read that post

neutrals all dai

 

[Quaz]

I love XIF

neutral that **** all day