Pound 4: Ban Mute City?

[Woj]

- Singles Stages Banned - Hyrule Temple, Yoshi 64, Fourside, Icicle Mountain, Flatzone, Venom, Brinstar Depths, Big Blue, Great Bay, onnett Princess Peach's Castle, Great bay, Yoshi's island (pipes), Mushroom Kingdom 1/2, **Mute city**, **Green Greens**

I just saw this on the Pound 4 site and it made me sad, and I'm pretty sure all the other peach users feel the same way haha. Anyone have any idea why they're banning mute city?

 

[DoH]

Because Plank plays Sheik, and he's a total ****. He thinks that Mute is as broken as Green Greens, which is not true.

 

[Woj]

Wow, that's so lame....
Thanks for the answer D'oh, thats so bs tho =\

we should protest haha

 

[Kouryuu]

Wow, he's actually banning Mute City.. ? I mean, we all have our opinions but to actually go against the official rules for a national tournament like Pound... That's a joke. I'd expect better from a TO like him.

 

[Master Peach]

Yeah, when I saw that at first I was like WTF. Well there are other boards we can use I suppose...

****! Who am I kidding... God knows I need that board to save my ***. *sigh*

 

[The Irish Mafia]

Great


I'll **** it up on brinstar

 

[JFox]

Honestly, I think peach/jiggs are far too dependent on stage counterpicks. Its really not fair how many **** stages they have. The opponent only gets one ban, and vs most people you have- Mute City, Brinstar, Jungle Japes, and DK64. The first two (Mute and Brin) are ridiculously good vs almost every character. The other two are matchup dependent, but typically in Peach´s advantage. So by knockin out one of her stages, everyone is just gonna start banning Brinstar leaving you with two semi good counterpicks + neutrals.

Now you say thats not very fair, but just look at the rest of the cast. Most characters only have 1 MAYBE 2 good (not ****, just good) counterpick stages vs peach. So you either ban a neutral, or ban one of the 2 stages they can pick.

So yea, it sucks that my best counterpick is taken away from me, but is it unfair? Not really tbh.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Mute City should've never been legal to start with. That stage is completely busted.

 

[Rubyiris]

</3 @ Green Greens being taken away. I'll miss my free win against floaties. =[

 

[Dogysamich]

Aight, here's my opinion about mute city being banned, take it how you will.

__

The way I see it, they're justified in banning mute, but at the same time it's unfair.

They're justified because unless a miracle happens, it's a stage that peach, jiggs, and samus WILL win on. That's a fact. The stage is made for them and everybody knows it. They dont need ledges to recovery and this is a 20 year old fact for an 8 year old game.

But the big thing is it really is unfair to take it away from you guys (moreso you guys (Peaches) and Samus). It's one of the few stages where you ALWAYS have a clear cut advantage over the other character (unless they play one of the 3 characters.) Now yes, but logic of why stages were normally banned, that actually does constitute mute city being banned, "If you're not playing one of those 3 characters, you're at a huge natural disadvantage", but at the same time, I DONT SEE WHY THE **** PEOPLE DONT JUST BAN MUTE AGAINST YOU PEOPLE ANYWAY. It's not like it's netural, so it's SUPPOSED to be kinda unfair for one side (although again, I will admit that it is extreme in your case) I mean realistically, no other stages gives you people (specifically peach/jiggs for this one) an unfair advantage. Yes, you get an advantage on brinstar, but it's nowhere near as bad as mute city. Heck, Mute city being bad really comes down to specific matchups, cause I'd image some characters would rather fight you on mute city than brinstar.

Realistically, look at how many people dont ban mute city against Armada and Hbox, and look what usually happens to those people in a set.

In the end, both sides of this arguement are justified. Just chalk it up as a learning experience if you're a person who kinda depends on Mute City. (I mean ****, Ima doc main and I'm kinda shaking at the fact I wont have it.)

__

You've got other stages, you'll just have to CP against player habits instead of CPing character abilities.

 

[Samochan]

At the same premise, why in the world aren't jungle japes nor pokefloats nor corneria banned? <_< Cause I tell you, some certain chars *cough* have huge advantages on those stages and they are campy as hell and far more difficult to win on than mute and jungle japes has rofl layout that ENFORCES camping and clap trap to mess you up. So I ask, why just mute? >_> I call for some bs.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I personally think Rainbow Cruise should be banned. Unless it's SS playing there. Then it's okay. In general, I just hate moving stages. So doesn't it makes sense if Mute is banned for Cruise to be, too? Well, technically, everything around the stage is moving, but it's just the fact that it doesn't stay the same. Pokefloats is also a moving stage. Not only that, it's just a weird stage. I think Floats and Cruise should be banned if Mute is. If not, then why ban any of them?

 

[ArcNatural]

At the same premise, why in the world aren't jungle japes nor pokefloats nor corneria banned? <_< Cause I tell you, some certain chars *cough* have huge advantages on those stages and they are campy as hell and far more difficult to win on than mute and jungle japes has rofl layout that ENFORCES camping and clap trap to mess you up. So I ask, why just mute? >_> I call for some bs.

Well it's just like removing Green Greens, you still have a huge advantage stage in Brinstar, Fox still has his huge advantage stage in Corneria, just ban it and deal with the lesser evil stages.

 

[JFox]

Samo, out of curiousity, what are the legal counterpick stages in Europe? Are they the same as ours or totally different?

Well it's just like removing Green Greens, you still have a huge advantage stage in Brinstar, Fox still has his huge advantage stage in Corneria, just ban it and deal with the lesser evil stages.

QFT

I personally think Rainbow Cruise should be banned. Unless it's SS playing there. Then it's okay. In general, I just hate moving stages. So doesn't it makes sense if Mute is banned for Cruise to be, too? Well, technically, everything around the stage is moving, but it's just the fact that it doesn't stay the same. Pokefloats is also a moving stage. Not only that, it's just a weird stage. I think Floats and Cruise should be banned if Mute is. If not, then why ban any of them?

I think youre missing the point. Plank didnt ban mute cuz it moves or changes. He banned it cuz it gives certain characters a very big advantage. It is for this same reason that he banned green greens. Cruise and floats dont give one character any big advantage over the majority of the cast, only specific matchups.

 

[Samochan]

Samo, out of curiousity, what are the legal counterpick stages in Europe? Are they the same as ours or totally different?

It varies between countries. In sweden they still sometimes play onett (lol wtf) cause they also play mute city. On netherlands they have very little stages, 3 stages on neutrals and some on counterpick, no corneria I think (can't recall exact stages, they were listed somewhere...) and on France they have only the 6 mains stages playable, sometimes only 5 or 3 of them, no random cp's like floats or mute and friends.

Pokefloats is very advantageous to Fox and Falcon and Falco, but mostly favors campy fox and knee happy falcons. Same amount of chars as mute, but floats enforces more camping and is more "stupid" stage in general (go random pokedeaths). Then corneria basically favors fox only, maybe bit of falco and totally enforces camping and has arwings and all, but not banned. >_> Falcon and sheik are also fairly good on Brinstar, it's not an entirely peach stage and certainly won't grant autowin, dunno how good jiggs is there.

Meh, I'm not going to pound 4 in any case. <_<

 

[DoH]

Uhhhh

Even if Green Greens is banned, Fox/Falco still have Poke Floats, Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, and Poke Stadium.

We get one stage ban, but so do they. They ban brinstar, so we're stuck countering them to stuff like Japes or DK where they can out camp you or run away, or something like FD. Brinstar isn't even that bad; Nite beat Vidjo there in crews down one stock, Fox can ***** the platforms with bair, Falcon can knee you off the acid, Sheik is **** good there too, etc.

I've lost to Marth players and darkrain on Mute before...it's definitely not autowin.

 

[DrewB008]

Even if Green Greens is banned, Fox/Falco still have Poke Floats, Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, and Poke Stadium.

stage bans arent decided based on balancing the tier list

just cause fox and falco are better characters than peach doesnt mean you deserve an easy fight against them via mute city

they ban brinstar you take them to fd like a man and cg them

 

[Samochan]

If peach can survive on mute like armada does and abuse the small platform phase a lot and not get outpaced on the bigger phase of the stage, then it's good peach stage. But really, on same premise as they banned mute, they should've at least banned corneria or floats. Jiggs and samus are good on mute too and basically all she gets is easier edgeguard, more survivability time and better chasing options, which you cannot abuse unless you're better than your opponent lol, di, mindgames and chasing are not easy things to do right on high level play. Edgeguard is easy vs spacies yea, but you gotta get em off stage in the first place.

Whereas fox is prolly the sole champion of corneria and gets ridiculous boost on his already best of the game up ko'ing capabilities due to extra low ceiling + fin, ridiculous camping spot and long stage to run away, not forgetting he's the best character to abuse this spot as well with his aerials and lasers and walldrillshine. Basically anyone who has played fox even a little bit can spam a little bit lasers and upsmash and uair, like upsmash anyone who dares to come down to camp spot as ground moves > aerial moves in priority. Or uptilt into uair yay. Fox is way too good on Corneria even with PAL setting, I can imagine NTSC. <_<; Heck, even armada uses fox on corneria if he get's cp'ed there. xD

/rant

they ban brinstar you take them to fd like a man and get waveshined and laser camped

Fix'd =)

 

[ChivalRuse]

If the process of banning stages is contingent upon whether or not they give certain characters "a huge advantage" over others, then shouldn't Corneria be banned for super early Fox kills, general campability, and Marth fin whoring?

 

[DrewB008]

waveshining happens on every level, laser camping w/e at least you have a 30-120 combo on fd

for real though, your character is still at least as good as a bunch of other characters that dont have a mute city to fall back on

for the record though i'm all for banning corneria, japes, mute, green greens, and floats, but i'm not a fan of this bartering system where you try to be fair to both peach/jiggs players and fox/falco players. if a level is beyond a certain level of acceptability it shouldnt be on, regardless of who it favors

 

[DoH]

But there's no warrant as to why mute is beyond that level of acceptability.

Drew, that argument is in response to the people who say, well if you ban mute and green greens, then you still have brinstar and they still have corneria. but when stage bans come into play, you don't have mute and they still have floats and cruise. If it's kosher to have fox have ridiculous advantages, then why not unban yoshi's island?

ps, try grabbing a good fox

 

[Pink Shinobi]

hmmm, corneria should be banned. So should Pokefloats. So should rainbow cruise. ^_^

 

[DoH]

i thought you lurved teh camping? lol

 

[Pink Shinobi]

i thought you lurved teh camping? lol

I love ta camp. I don't like to be camped.

 

[Samochan]

I'm wondering why mute warrants a ban and stage like corneria and floats do not. How come corneria and floats grant less advantages to certain characters than mute does? To me, this logic seems very unlogical, as everyone very much knows how much corneria favors fox only and how stupid stage floats is. Stages that have been banned are usually enforcing camping (like hyrule), grant one character too great advantage over majority (yoshi's island pipes) or are simply dumb stages that have environment, stage layout or movement that hinder gameplay greatly (icicle mountain). I can only say mute has debatably 1,5 strike, while corneria and floats have 2 and somewhat 2,5 strikes even. Yet mute's the only one getting ban. <_<

 

[pockyD]

if you read almost everyone's arguments from a non-biased POV, all you're really arguing for is for more stages to be banned, as opposed to mute city being unbanned; there's no reason behind letting two very unfair stages (based on your determinations; not mine) be legal simply because they are unfair for opposite sides

Wow, he's actually banning Mute City.. ? I mean, we all have our opinions but to actually go against the official rules for a national tournament like Pound... That's a joke. I'd expect better from a TO like him.

The "official" rules?

Random Stage List
Dream Land: Fountain of Dreams
Kanto: Pokemon Stadium
Mushroom Kingdom: Rainbow Cruise *
Past Stages: Dream Land
Past Stages: Kongo Jungle
Special Stages: Final Destination
Special Stages: Battlefield
Yoshi's Island: Yoshi's Story

Counter Stage List
Dream Land: Green Greens *
DK Island: Jungle Japes
F-Zero Grand Prix: Mute City
Kanto Skies: Poke Floats
Lylat System: Corneria
Mushroom Kingdom: Princess Peach's Castle *
Mushroom Kingdom II *
Planet Zebes: Brinstar

I have never ever seen a single tournament use this stage set (maybe they used it in like 2005?). The "official" rules are stupid

 

[DrewB008]

i think all those stages should be banned, yeah

but i think any one of them being banned is better than all of them being on

doh, youre not getting it. youre complaining about fox having more cp stages than peach, when the reason he does is because hes just plain a better character. the quality of fox doesnt justify a level where you have a huge advantage being on, if anything it hurts your case; if fox is so good on neutrals vs peach then its clear that mute city is vastly different from a normal tournament scenario. all mute city really does is let characters worse than the top 4 win against the top 4, which really shows it's not a good example of a tournament legal stage.

edit: and yeah pocky knows whats up, no such thing as "official rules" in the eyes of most actual serious melee players

 

[DoH]

No drew, you're not getting the argument

Mute is banned from Pound because plank feels the advantages it gives to Peach are "too excessive"

Fox has several of these stages, and only a few stages where he's not dominant due to the way we've conceptualized "neutral" stages and what's "tournament appropriate." Fox shouldn't get his amazing stages just because he's the best character while Peach is denied hers because she can take characters that are better than her and get an advantage based on stage. Peach's advantages on Mute are no where near the advantages Fox gets on Floats or Corneria.

IF MUTE IS SUCH A PROBLEM, USE YOUR STAGE STRIKE

Obviously Mute is different than any other stage in the game, but that in no way justifies it's ban; rather it justifies it for it's unique additive value to the stage because it's not gamebreaking. Mute isn't an autowin; player skill can overcome the advantages mute gives

 

[Plairnkk]

No drew, you're not getting the argument

Mute is banned from Pound because plank feels the advantages it gives to Peach are "too excessive"

Fox has several of these stages, and only a few stages where he's not dominant due to the way we've conceptualized "neutral" stages and what's "tournament appropriate." Fox shouldn't get his amazing stages just because he's the best character while Peach is denied hers because she can take characters that are better than her and get an advantage based on stage. Peach's advantages on Mute are no where near the advantages Fox gets on Floats or Corneria.

IF MUTE IS SUCH A PROBLEM, USE YOUR STAGE STRIKE

Obviously Mute is different than any other stage in the game, but that in no way justifies it's ban; rather it justifies it for it's unique additive value to the stage because it's not gamebreaking. Mute isn't an autowin; player skill can overcome the advantages mute gives

If you take a Peach player and someone of the same exact skill playing ANY OTHER character and play strictly on your opponents counterpick, peach is going to win WAY more often than every other character because of mute city.

Essentially it gives less talented peach players a chance to get lucky one match on a neutral and win on their coveted counterpick.

You should not have to go in the set knowing that you have to ban mute city because this person mains (or even secondaries, because the advantage is that ridiculous) Peach.

Is there any other character than you already KNOW where they will counterpick before you even play them? Are you that stubborn-minded to refuse to believe that it's because the counterpick might just be a bit too excessive and unfair? It wouldn't basically be a RULE that Peach players pick Mute city if it was even, in any sense of the word, fair.

 

[ArcNatural]

If you take a Peach player and someone of the same exact skill playing ANY OTHER character and play strictly on your opponents counterpick, peach is going to win WAY more often than every other character because of mute city.

Essentially it gives less talented peach players a chance to get lucky one match on a neutral and win on their coveted counterpick.

You should not have to go in the set knowing that you have to ban mute city because this person mains (or even secondaries, because the advantage is that ridiculous) Peach.

Is there any other character than you already KNOW where they will counterpick before you even play them? Are you that stubborn-minded to refuse to believe that it's because the counterpick might just be a bit too excessive and unfair? It wouldn't basically be a RULE that Peach players pick Mute city if it was even, in any sense of the word, fair.

And your reasoning for leaving Corneria on? I'm just curious to who would actually counterpick there not being Fox or Falco.

 

[Plairnkk]

fox and falco are both good there. chu counterpicks there ALL THE TIME with ice climbers or pikachu. Marths counterpick there because they have a good UP+B game on the fin. I counterpick there with sheik because the ledge in middle allows me to shino stall+ bail out of bad situations with the fin, also i'm good at teching and have a good tech game so I like the wall being there. samus players counterpick there for the same UP+B reason as marth. ness can counterpick corneria and camp the lasers.

that being said i dont like corneria either, but i dont feel the advantages given are nearly as large as those given by mute city.

If i were to ban corneria for anything it'd be because of the random lasers and the fact it promotes camping, not because it's "too good for fox".

 

[`DNS`]

At the same premise, why in the world aren't jungle japes nor pokefloats nor corneria banned? <_< Cause I tell you, some certain chars *cough* have huge advantages on those stages and they are campy as hell and far more difficult to win on than mute and jungle japes has rofl layout that ENFORCES camping and clap trap to mess you up. So I ask, why just mute? >_> I call for some bs.

umm... what?

 

[pockyD]

i've even seen peaches themselves CP corneria in the past (with varying degrees of success, of course)

 

[DoH]

If you take a Peach player and someone of the same exact skill playing ANY OTHER character and play strictly on your opponents counterpick, peach is going to win WAY more often than every other character because of mute city.

Essentially it gives less talented peach players a chance to get lucky one match on a neutral and win on their coveted counterpick.

You should not have to go in the set knowing that you have to ban mute city because this person mains (or even secondaries, because the advantage is that ridiculous) Peach.

Is there any other character than you already KNOW where they will counterpick before you even play them? Are you that stubborn-minded to refuse to believe that it's because the counterpick might just be a bit too excessive and unfair? It wouldn't basically be a RULE that Peach players pick Mute city if it was even, in any sense of the word, fair.

If they win the neutral, strike Mute.

Marth pretty much always CPs to Yoshi's. Fox I can never decide which of his gay counterpicks because he's got 3. Puff's probably going to Mute as well, but it's far from an autowin. Wife lost to Ken there after beating him on RC and Yoshis. Darkrain's multiple stocked Vidjo there, I've lost to darkrain there before, Cort lost to PC, Chillin ***** me there in crews at FCD, Bam's beaten Vwins there, SS has beaten Pink Shinobi there. I rarely play there in tournament any more because most people use their stage strike. Mute City is not the problem here.

I've had people who aren't better than me CP me to corneria or floats or RC and laser camp with fox, who don't even use Fox. Those are just as excessively strong counterpicks as Mute, so why are they allowed? Puff works just as well on Mute, Samus does pretty well there as well, as does Marth unless he's against those three. The point of stage striking is to avoid losing the random and getting taken to a gay CP.

There's never been any proof that Mute has been excessive. It's never determined a major tournament set to my knowledge.

Why is the advantage given to Spacies on Floats and Cruise not as big as the one give to floaties on Mute? Why don't they get the ban hammer?

 

[`DNS`]

And your reasoning for leaving Corneria on? I'm just curious to who would actually counterpick there not being Fox or Falco.

i believe mangoPUFF did at RoM

 

[Kouryuu]

I have never ever seen a single tournament use this stage set (maybe they used it in like 2005?). The "official" rules are stupid

What are you talking about? This is, more or less, the stage set that's used for tournaments today. Even before the latest SBR ruleset update, Mute had always remained as an Counterpick.

If you take a Peach player and someone of the same exact skill playing ANY OTHER character and play strictly on your opponents counterpick, peach is going to win WAY more often than every other character because of mute city.

I'm pretty sure Puff vs Peach can go either way on that stage. But this is the case if both the Puff and Peach players are of the "same exact skill" anyway.

Essentially it gives less talented peach players a chance to get lucky one match on a neutral and win on their coveted counterpick.

............ .. .... .

"Lucky.. ?" ..... are you serious?

If that happens, then just BAN MUTE CITY. That way, no matter what other stage that Peach player takes you to, you know he won't beat you since he's "less talented" and only got "lucky" the first round.

You should not have to go in the set knowing that you have to ban mute city because this person mains (or even secondaries, because the advantage is that ridiculous) Peach.

Yo, Sheik Main! U Mad!?

Seriously, dude. If you're really losing that much sleep over it, then why not PICK UP A SECONDARY (like Peach or Puff)?

Or let me guess; you don't think anyone should need to pick up a secondary just to counter a certain match-up on a single stage, right?

Seriously, Plank. Your logic is laughable.

 

[DrewB008]

are we seriously gonna start listing every single tournament match that supports our arguments

drephen took m2k to corneria at fcd so that m2k would go fox, and then beat him there

watty took km to rainbow cruise so that km would switch to fox instead of marth, and then beat him there

vidjo 4 stocked mathos on floats with peach

i shouldnt have to ban mute city and then end up playing falcon on fountain of dreams for the random

no matter how many times you say "my character cant win anywhere else" it doesnt help

and kouryuu l2read that list has cruise and kongo jungle on random

 

[Kouryuu]

Cruise has an asterisk next to it which means it can be used as either a neutral or CP. And the stages with asterisks on the CP section means that they should only be used as a CP or should be banned. This was the same rule set that was used at Genesis, actually.

Outside Kongo being a neutral (the main reason Kongo is a neutral is so that stage striking is possible), it's still more or less the same as the stage set from the previous rule set.

 

[pockyD]

and then if you remove mute city, it's still "more or less" the same stage set as well

 

[Dark Sonic]

The "official" rules?



I have never ever seen a single tournament use this stage set (maybe they used it in like 2005?). The "official" rules are stupid

You just got the combined list for teams and singles <_<.

Now move DK64 and Rainbow cruise to counterpick. Ban mushroom kingdom 2 and Princess Peach's castle.

List suddenly looks VERY familiar doesn't it? That happens to be the ACTUAL official stage list. And you're saying you've never seen a single tournament use those stages?