Pound 4: Ban Mute City?

[pockyD]

yeah, the "official" stage list with 4 changes

why is the 5th change the one that makes it ridiculous?

on a largely unrelated note, FCD had battlefield off of random

someone explain that one

 

[DrewB008]

the kishes were crazy when it came to stages

one of our relatively serious mw tournaments had cruise, mute, and dk64 on random in addition to the normal 6, and the only reason it didnt have floats and brinstar on was cause we yelled at them like crazy

 

[Cia]

Honestly, I feel like arguing with Plairnkk is going to do nothing but give you a headache. he is adamant in his decision to ban Mute City, but leave Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, PokeFloats and Jungle Japes. I'm really looking forward to Pound, but I'm also glad i took the time to Learn Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Puff.

but mostly FOX

 

[KirbyKaze]

What I hate about Fox counterpicks is that you can't decide what kind of stage you get picked to post-stage ban, assuming you lose game 1.

If you're bad on a stationary level, you can't ban Corneria and be okay. He still has Green Greens and Japes.

If you're bad on a level that moves, you can't ban Pokefloats and be okay because he still has Rainbow Cruise.

This is all without character-specific matchup advantages gained from specific stages (ie. Pokefloats vs Peach is autowin unless the Fox is terrible there or literally every other turnip is a bomb or stitch).

Sheik vs other characters is very similar. Marth can't do **** to her on DK64 unless she fails. She can camp Japes really hard against not-Fox/Falco too.

As is Falco vs other characters. Boat is too good.

tl;dr all counterpick levels are gay.

 

[Kouryuu]

Plank is stupid.

/END.

 

[Europhoria]

Because Plank plays Sheik, and he's a total ****. He thinks that Mute is as broken as Green Greens, which is not true.

Pretty much =\ If Sheik wasn't bad-ish on Mute the stage would be legal.

 

[JFox]

Kouryuu your logic is terrible and you should learn some ****in manners. Making immature posts is not about to change anything.

DoH- Peach has Japes, DK64, and Brin. Why do you seem to ignore those when arguing?

Plank, I think you should reconsider banning Corneria. Hear me out- It really does deserve the ban for the same logic you gave to Mute City. When people think Mute they think Peach/Jiggs. When people think Corneria, they think Fox/Falco. The stuff that you listed, such as Marth up B'ing onto the fin (btw I dont think shino stalling works on corneria cuz of the plane moving), is very minor compared to the overall performace of those characters. Sure Fox could go Mute on Sheik cuz he does far better there than her, but that still doesnt change that Jiggs/Peach are too good on Mute. Say logic as Corneria- Fox/Falco are overpowered there.

In addition, this stage is really campy. Characters are rewarded for camping. This was one of the biggest reasons Peach's Castle was banned, along with the walls which Corneria also has.

Lastly, what's the real harm with banning stages? I know everyone makes a big deal about getting rid of stages, but at this level of competition should anyone really be losing because of a stage, or should they lose cuz they are the lesser player? America is still far more liberal about stage bans than other countries. If you are iffy on a stage, ban it.

I have no problem with Mute being banned and I'm a Peach main. I just think you should make sure you use the same logic when considering all stages as you have already used on Mute.

 

[lordvaati]

...well in that sense, since almost all CPs favor characters too much, why doesn't pound just take the Japan route and only allow neutrals?

 

[Kouryuu]

Kouryuu your logic is terrible and you should learn some ****in manners. Making immature posts is not about to change anything.

My logic is terrible.. ? If you're talking about my response to Planks post, I only pointed out how his logic is flawed. Think before you post lol.

And no, I am not about to learn some "****ing manners"

 

[Wobbles]

Man up.

Leave Mute on.

Be a better player.

Win.

Edit:

No, I don't really feel like being polite either. I get my *** counterpicked to ridiculous stages all the time and lose sets because of it. If I wanted to win so badly, I'd play better. No johns.

 

[lordvaati]

Man up.

Leave Mute on.

Be a better player.

Win.

word. edges? you don't need no stinkin' edges!

 

[Samochan]

...well in that sense, since almost all CPs favor characters too much, why doesn't pound just take the Japan route and only allow neutrals?

Japan route is fd and dl64 only lol. Too little stages imo.

Personally I'd prefer 5 neutral stages + stagestrike or 3 neutrals and random. For cp's either simply rest of the neutral stages or some counterpick stages, with possibility of banning either 2 cp stages or 1 neutral.

 

[Kouryuu]

Man up.

Leave Mute on.

Be a better player.

Win.

Edit:

No, I don't really feel like being polite either. I get my *** counterpicked to ridiculous stages all the time and lose sets because of it. If I wanted to win so badly, I'd play better. No johns.

This post says it all.

 

[JFox]

IMO that post makes no sense. Why did we start banning stages in the first place if that is the kind of umbrella statement you're going to make. If you're good enough you should be able to play on any stage and win right?

The point is that when two people are close in skill, stages make a big difference, so making them as fair as possible is very important.

 

[Kouryuu]

The reason certain stages are permanently banned is because playing on them is almost next to impossible and the stages have too many factors that interfere and/or greatly influence the course of the match.

For example, Hyrule Castle or Termina Bay. All Fox needs to do is get a few lasers in or a lead in percentage/stock and run around the stage with no way of being caught by ANY character. The SBR had undisputed reasons as to why certain stages were officially banned. I'm not gonna list all the reasons for them banning whatever stages they've banned but I'm sure you get the idea.

However, Mute City in this case is definitely a playable stage and far from an auto win for Peach (entirely unlike what Plank thinks).

Edit: I don't even think Plank is going to care about what we have to say at this point. It's pretty blatant that it's just personal bias with no logic and he's merely exercising his power as a TO to get his way.

Pound 4 was suppose to be mad hype but Plank is really ****ing up. So stupid.

 

[Wobbles]

JFox: then we shouldn't have any of the other non-neutrals on at all. We shouldn't bother with a counter-pick system.

The *point* of the counter-pick system is for a player to find a way to tilt a match in their favor. I pick a stage, then a character to counter you. It is specifically engineered for somebody to gain an advantage after losing a match.

Currently banned stages have *broken* tactics. That is, they break the competitive aspect of any match held on those stages.

Mute City gives Peach an unfair advantage, but then again, other counterpick stages give other characters unfair advantages over her. Plank doesn't want to fight on Mute City against Peach (who would), but you know, I bet he doesn't mind if he's allowed to pick Rainbow Cruise or Pokefloats against her. Why are we keeping these other unfair stages on?

Because they're part of the counterpick system. They test the ability to handle different matchups on different (non-broken) stages. Armada didn't john about Lunin camping him on Pokefloats, he just played better and won. Remember when Mango beat M2K on Corneria with Jigglypuff? Time and again people lose on their supposedly guaranteed counterpicks. I've beaten Peaches on Mute City and Brinstar with the flipping ICE CLIMBERS... you know why? Because I *have to* be able to do that, since the tournament won't let me strike both of them. And that still leaves me with Dreamland, Battlefield, and FoD to get as neutrals. I have a 50 percent chance of getting a stage that's bad for me, a 16.6% chance of getting an even one, and a 33.3% chance of getting one that I'm comfortable on but still doesn't make the matchup much better. You're telling me I'm supposed to feel bad because top-tier users don't want to feel disadvantaged on a stage they're already allowed to ban? When they already have concrete advantages against Peach on most of the neutrals? Sorry, I can't seem to find any sympathy.

The game's unfair, but it's not our job to regulate fairness. We regulate brokenness. If these stages were broken, people would always lose to these kinds of counterpick stages. They don't, so I'm not seeing the problem.

 

[KirbyKaze]

With the strike / ban rule I don't know how Peach would be an issue tbh. You ban Mute, strike the neutral you hate most against her and then if worst comes to worst you fight her on Brinstar, which can be used against her pretty easily.

Either way I don't really care though.

 

[AustinRC]

If I play any Peach players in P4 I WILL let them counter pick Mute City. The stage is fair and legit, Peach has a SLIGHT advantage which she needs imho. Plank's probably mad because he cant out camp peach there. lolololololololololololol Hate losing to peach on that stage? GET BETTER, NO JOHNZ. Counter pick away!!!!! No hate only tough <3!! :D

 

[MacD]

doc is good on mute too against spacies, i always enjoy seeing not peach/puff on that stage just because it makes it a more fun match

vwins lost to mango's falco on mute but then he beat it on FD cause of chaingrabs, don't tell me there isn't something unfair about that match up on certain stages

witht the logic i've seen then corneria should also be banned, we could give reasons why other characters would counter pick mute, but it probably wouldn't make a difference

and i don't really mind pokefloats vs fox, well at least i haven't come to hate it yet, not like i'm going to counterpick there, but i love that stage much more then like corneria, hell even green greens is better than corneria

and i don't remember who brought it up, but pound 4 is one stage ban and that's it, no randon reset and no stage striking, though i think most everyone enjoyed stage strikes at genesis, it seemed to work nicely and made the first stage more fair for both people

 

[Razor]

peaches out there, we still got brinstar and kongo jungle. mute is the best peach stage out there, but it is broken....

no edges, high ceiling, and basically is designed to mess up anyone who doesn't have a good horizontal recovery. if it had edges, i think the stage would be solid. corneria is a bad stage, but it's not horrible. it's the fox tactics that are the issue. i soemtimes HATE dreamland cuz they camp so much.

plus, i doubt armada really cares and if he goes he'll probably **** everyone

 

[Kouryuu]

That's the thing. If Mute City isn't allowed, our opponent will most likely ban Brinstar or Kongo (depending on their character). And neither Brinstar or Kongo are nearly as advantageous to Peach as, for example, Corneria is for Fox.

 

[Plairnkk]

TBH I just don't see corneria being auto-counterpicked by fox's and such... chu cp'd me there today in winners finals AND grand finals and ***** me both times with ics =[

i feel almost ALL counterpicks are stupid, mute seems just a little more stupid to me since it changes the game entirely by taking out edges and adding in cars.

Honestly i'd be happiest with the 6 neutrals and kongo jungle being the only stages allowed. lol =3

 

[Kouryuu]

i feel almost ALL counterpicks are stupid, mute seems just a little more stupid to me since it changes the game entirely by taking out edges and adding in cars.

What about Pokefloats? It's much more dynamic than Mute and it doesn't have ledges either.

Honestly i'd be happiest with the 6 neutrals and kongo jungle being the only stages allowed. lol =3

Why not go for it? It's not like you care if others agree with you or not.

 

[Plairnkk]

I do care, but only to an extent. I feel like more people would be complaining rather than just peach players. I might end up doing a poll or something eventually to figure out what people want as a whole

 

[ArcNatural]

I do care, but only to an extent. I feel like more people would be complaining rather than just peach players. I might end up doing a poll or something eventually to figure out what people want as a whole

Well, just ban Corneria turn back on Mute and see what would happen.

 

[MacD]

Well, just ban Corneria turn back on Mute and see what would happen.

agreed

and idk about over on the EC or in the South but on the WC we like our gay counterpicks, there were some EC poeple complaining about how WC does gay counterpicks when someone picked corneria

and i think IC's on corneria is like doc on mute, it's a good counter for them, it just isn't the first stage to cross your mind when you think of those characters

 

[Archangel]

I gotta say I'm kinda glad they banned it for pound 4. It means I'll have a better chance against Peach's at Pound.

 

[KirbyKaze]

and idk about over on the EC or in the South but on the WC we like our gay counterpicks, there were some EC poeple complaining about how WC does gay counterpicks when someone picked corneria

WC is a bunch of fiery homosexuals.

EC is a bunch of whiny scrubs.

Everyone wins!

 

[ChivalRuse]

Honestly i'd be happiest with the 6 neutrals and kongo jungle being the only stages allowed. lol =3

Kongo Jungle is definitely a well designed stage. The only thing I hate is the high ceiling.

 

[CanISmash]

Well, just ban Corneria turn back on Mute and see what would happen.

TOO FAR MAN!!!

you **** with fox, you **** with smash.

 

[Quaz]

As much as I love CPing mute city I don't mind it being banned, I think its a cheap stage actually, too many environmental hazards.

 

[Archangel]

I'll be honest. I think stages that interfere with the match itself should be banned. Even if that means my beloved Corneria then so be it. If it's fair then I wouldn't mind it.

 

[DrewB008]

the only reason mute city isnt an auto win for peach is because shes not as good a character as others; the stage affects gameplay more than most counterpicks, it shouldnt be spared just because peach is bad. doc and dk are pretty great on mk2, doesnt mean that terrible level should be on

and kouryuu said something foolish along the lines of "well why dont you just pick up peach or puff" and ignored the implication that he could pick up fox or falco just as easily and not only do better on floats and corneria but also do better on all the neutrals in pretty much every matchup. therefore peach players picking up space animals would be a good idea in general while everyone else picking up peach would only serve to give you some peach dittos on mute city every once in a while

 

[unknown522]

lol, mute city is a dumb stage, but it's not that bad for tourneys.

Besides, you can still ban it during sets.

 

[Pink Shinobi]

Oh well, no more debating pweeze. ^_-- <3

I think its best to do some kind of poll and have the current active smash community decide on what is most fair. After all, this is a tournament for the smash community. I think they should have a say on how the rules are decided. Kinda like voting for a proposition! Go democracy........

 

[Cia]

Just putting it out there. Tipman beat Me and Teczero on Mute City (Ganondorf vs Peach)

 

[unknown522]

Just putting it out there. Tipman beat Me and Teczero on Mute City (Ganondorf vs Peach)

so?

/10chars

 

[pockyD]

how embarrassing for you!

 

[DoH]

Oh well, no more debating pweeze. ^_-- <3

I think its best to do some kind of poll and have the current active smash community decide on what is most fair. After all, this is a tournament for the smash community. I think they should have a say on how the rules are decided. Kinda like voting for a proposition! Go democracy........

But then a tyranny of the majority will oppress the minority through the proposition, and gays can't get married and Peach can't have mute city.

DoH- Peach has Japes, DK64, and Brin. Why do you seem to ignore those when arguing?

Because with Mute banned, people will use their stage ban on those stages, probably Brinstar. DK and Japes are useless against space animals if the spacies are willing to abuse Peach's speed and their own lasers to out camp her. Those stages aren't that good for Peach if the opponent is willing to out camp her

 

[MacD]

But then a tyranny of the majority will oppress the minority through the proposition, and gays can't get married and Peach can't have mute city.

both are the ban of like all peach players