Pound 4: Ban Mute City?

[TresChikon]

I enter tournaments to beat my opponents 1 vs 1, not 1 vs 1 vs Stage vs Slippy vs Birdo vs Bombs vs whatever the heck fvcking mario party BS this game has.

^Sig worthy

Chance time is gay.

 

[Europhoria]

LOL omg chance time. Me, Kirbykaze and Unknown522 were playing a 50 turn Mario Party 4 and on the last turn the computer went did the reversal of fortune (had to use a small mushroom and roll perfectly too LOL) and swapped all of Unknown's stars/coins with KK's. It meant Unknown going from like a 7 star lead to 3rd place.

 

[XIF]

spread the word.

 

[nicaboy]

Don't give in Plairnkk, stand your ground.

To every Peach in here:

If you think Mute should stay and that you need it as Peach players, then you just need to man up and quit using dumb stages as a crutch for actual skill. Or worse, hoping for the cars to do the work for you. Great job, you won because you can float above cars while other characters have to waste jumps, mobility, options, and risk stocks. You're not good for winning on mute, quit feeling good about yourself.

The thing is that Fox players don't deserve to get Green Greens or Corneria either. Getting a win because you can implement a simple strategy that requires far too much effort to overcome isn't skill with a stage, it's ********. I don't need to go through an obstacle course just to be able to try to hurt my opponent.

If it isn't fair first round, why the heck is it suddenly fair 2nd and 3rd round?

Mute City is dumb
Green Greens is dumb
CP stages are dumb.

Random factors galore, and insurmountable matchups make for great times right? I enter tournaments to beat my opponents 1 vs 1, not 1 vs 1 vs Stage vs Slippy vs Birdo vs Bombs vs whatever the heck fvcking mario party BS this game has.

Whats wrong with giving yourself an advantage once in a while? **** that ban corneria an we can talk. I feel good too.

 

[MusicalMike]

If Peach isn't actively winning tournaments, why should we do anything that would deprive her of her advantages?

Edit- Reconstructed my argument in a more presentable manner.

 

[TheManaLord]

Don't give in Plairnkk, stand your ground.

To every Peach in here:

If you think Mute should stay and that you need it as Peach players, then you just need to man up and quit using dumb stages as a crutch for actual skill. Or worse, hoping for the cars to do the work for you. Great job, you won because you can float above cars while other characters have to waste jumps, mobility, options, and risk stocks. You're not good for winning on mute, quit feeling good about yourself.

The thing is that Fox players don't deserve to get Green Greens or Corneria either. Getting a win because you can implement a simple strategy that requires far too much effort to overcome isn't skill with a stage, it's ********. I don't need to go through an obstacle course just to be able to try to hurt my opponent.

If it isn't fair first round, why the heck is it suddenly fair 2nd and 3rd round?

Mute City is dumb
Green Greens is dumb
CP stages are dumb.

Random factors galore, and insurmountable matchups make for great times right? I enter tournaments to beat my opponents 1 vs 1, not 1 vs 1 vs Stage vs Slippy vs Birdo vs Bombs vs whatever the heck fvcking mario party BS this game has.

this is great and true

 

[Cia]

LOL @ this thread being in the Peach boards, and not Melee General.

I use puff here anyway

 

[DoH]

Even if we lost Mute, we got floats, green greens and corneria banned and stadium moved to counterpick. success.

 

[Quaz]

we still get to counterpick brinstar too lol

 

[DoH]

No, they'll probably ban that. But we still have DL/DK/FD/FoD

 

[Plairnkk]

ugh i hate both brinstar and cruise =[

LOL

but no the ruleset iss prob gonna stay as is

 

[Kouryuu]

Even if we lost Mute, we got floats, green greens and corneria banned and stadium moved to counterpick. success.

I agree. I actually love Planks ruleset.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

Yeah, I'm just going to ban Rainbow and hope for the best. All the neutrals are good peach stages, and Pokemon isn't really a death sentence to peach.

 

[Deleted member]

this is looking to be the next standard rule set. I haven't had time to make the formal announcement yet.


singles

starter:
fod
FD
BF
YS
DL64

CP:
PS
Bstar
RC
KJ64

teams

starter:
FD
BF
YS
DL64
PS

CP:
Bstar
KJ64
RC

 

[Kouryuu]

There is always something gay about the rules. Rules (for singles anyway) should be:

Neutrals:

Final Destination
Battlefield
Dreamland

Counterpicks:

Pokemon Stadium
Yoshi Story
Fountain of Dreams
Kongo 64

Make it as least gay as possible. As Xif said, people should not rely on stages but rather, their own skillset to win. Brinstar and Cruise are still pretty gay stages, and Yoshi Story(shy guys, cloud)/Fountain(random alternating platforms) are definitely not as "neutral" as FD, BF and even Dreamland.

I don't know, I just think we should eliminate as much "gay" as possible. That's when true player skill will really shine. Well, I'm glad that we're at least progressing. Plank is amazing.

 

[Siglemic]

There is always something gay about the rules. Rules (for singles anyway) should be:

Neutrals:

Final Destination
Battlefield
Dreamland

Counterpicks:

Pokemon Stadium
Yoshi Story
Fountain of Dreams
Kongo 64

Make it as least gay as possible. As Xif said, people should not rely on stages but rather, their own skillset to win. Brinstar and Cruise are still pretty gay stages, and Yoshi Story(shy guys, cloud)/Fountain(random alternating platforms) are definitely not as "neutral" as FD, BF and even Dreamland.

I don't know, I just think we should eliminate as much "gay" as possible. That's when true player skill will really shine. Well, I'm glad that we're at least progressing. Plank is amazing.

There is nothing random about pokefloats, brinstar or rainbow cruise IMO, and they should be counterpicks.

I think putting fountain of dreams to counterpick because of random platforms and yoshi story because of shy guys is a bit on the extreme side, and would be elimintating too much of the game IMO.

Also where the hell is corneria? That stage isn't THAT gay imo, maybe i'm missing something

Mute city should stay in my opinion, but it is in peach's favor a lot so i can see why you would want to ban that

Plank's ruleset looks pretty solid besides lack of corneria

 

[LumpyCPU...]

re: op

as a peach main, i still think it's ridiculous that everyone i play has to ban mute.
and when they do i still have brinstar.

tourneys should start being neutrals only.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

or this would be nice

Neutrals:

Final Destination
Battlefield
Dreamland

Counterpicks:

Pokemon Stadium
Yoshi Story
Fountain of Dreams
Kongo 64

 

[MusicalMike]

Pardon me guys but I have a question, and I'm not flaming anybody, I'd just like the line of logic explained to me because I don't seem to quite understand it personally. I'm a bit new to Peach melee wise so this would help me out. I understand that Mute City does indeed benefit Peach no doubt to a very gay amount. But even without the stage ban, she isn't consistently winning melee tournaments. She does come close but usually Peach mains don't win with her. Therefore I would think that since she isn't taking first, why modify a ruleset to something that would harm her chances even further? That would not only decrease her chances of winning, but would in fact increase the chances of the characters who are already winning, winning because Peach isn't the threat she once was with that counterpick out of the way.

TL;DR- I am aware that Peach has the potential to win tournaments but she just hasn't ever been consistent about it. So why nerf a character who isn't winning anyways?

Also By the same token I do not mean to offend any Peach mains out there by saying you guys never win or anything like that. I mean I'm a Peach main to but we can't deny that characters like Marth/Falco win more than we do. I do support the Peach community to it's fullest and I'm always pleased to watch good Peach players doing well such as Xif/Armada/Mike.G/Vidjo and such. =)

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

this is stupid. that my counterpick.


i dont even think the counterpick is that bad. just go fox and kill me at 60% with an upsmash.

 

[N64]

question

The intention of a stagelist is not to make every character viable or equal. The intention of a stagelist is to have stages that reasonably (by whatever is deemed reasonable by the TO/community) allow for a match to be determined primarily by player skill, and preferably in a fashion that is deemed competative. A number of the stages 'newly' banned at pound 4 have some random element issues, and while I'm not sure if it's the primary reason they are banned, i'm sure it has an effect. Mute has the cars, japes has that **** klaptrap, greengreens has blocks, corneria has arwings, etc. These are random elements which can noticably affect a match and are not very reliant on player skill.

Additionally, the ability to counterpick exists so that players can select a stage that would give them a slight advantage, but not an overwhelming one. I'm assuming Plank believes Mute City gives peach/jiggs/possibly others an overwhelming advantage, meaning that as long as skill is relatively equal between players the peach/jiggs/whatever will get an auto-win second round and go 1-2 at worst. Same for greengreens and spacies etc. If anyone wants to comment on how peach lost her main CP, most characters don't have a 'main CP' in the first place.

The pound 4 stagelist probably does favor marth/sheik more than the current standard stagelist, but that's because they're good characters who do well-but-not-amazingly on plenty of stages. If sheik can do alright against fox on the majority of stages, but he has at least 2 CP stage options that greatly advantage him while she has 1 or less, then fox just bans that one and instantly has a much greater chance of winning the set. The stagelist is greatly affecting that matchup. Again, a stagelist's purpose isn't to make characters viable, it's to attempt to make the outcome of a match based primarily on player skill.

 

[MusicalMike]

N64- Oh okay, I understand what you're saying. Even though Peach is good on Mute City, that isn't the main point as I thought it was. The main point was that you are trying to remove as many random factors as possible to make it as skill based as possible. As a Peach player I just kinda ran in thinking that it was a bias towards Peach without even looking at both sides of the debate. In light of your reasoning I respect and agree with the decision made then to ban Mute City. Thank you for explaining that to me. =)

 

[Virusbluemage]

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it here or not but this is old news. The reason Mute City is banned is because Plaank(and this isn't a joke) is trying to make certain Armada does not win Pound 4. Whenever the pros play Armada they would Ban mute city, but now that it's already ban they can ban another one of his better stages. It's like they're getting 2 bans against him. I don't mind them screwing over Europe but it sucks that they're screwing over other Peaches as well. I'm pretty Armada will be the only Peach in top 12 at Pound 4.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Yes

thats the WHOLE REASON

ITS A CONSPIRACY AGAINST ARMADA

JUST LIKE THE GOVERNMENT CAUSED 9/11

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

it just stupid.

people act like it's impossible to win on mute city against peach.


man the **** up.


seriously, stop complaining about stages so much and learn how to play

 

[_Keno_]

its pretty impossible at high levels of play, unless you are also peach, or puff.

Peach still has kongo 64 against fox (hard to camp, high ceilings, short sides, pretty awful ledges).

 

[Samochan]

its pretty impossible at high levels of play, unless you are also peach, or puff.

Peach still has kongo 64 against fox (hard to camp, high ceilings, short sides, pretty awful ledges).

And unless you are silent spectre apparently. With a character this stage in theory royally ****s over.

Hmmmmmm.....

And I wouldn't take fox onto dk64. >_>; Fox loves to camp there and doesn't care about ceilings anyway when he can laser you for 20% moar, nor the ledges when he can just recover to the top which is hard to access for peach quickly cause her jumps suck. Then barrel hogging when he wants. It's like DL64 all over again, once upon a time it was a good peach stage but now it's actually bad due to all the camping and maneuvering fox/falco/sheik do against her. Good thing they both work against marth still lol.

Besides if the peach player is worse and loses first, then cp's mute and wins, you get to cp yours and win by a fair lot. So unless the peach is actually better, mute doesn't help anyone to autowin anything. Armada hardly needs mute to rapestomp people lol, especially with his after genesis skill level. Stage doesn't help person who's adaptation skillz are top of the world.

Imo, pound 4 rules are quite fair as they are now. :3

 

[_Keno_]

And unless you are silent spectre apparently. With a character this stage in theory royally ****s over.

Hmmmmmm.....

And I wouldn't take fox onto dk64. >_>; Fox loves to camp there and doesn't care about ceilings anyway when he can laser you for 20% moar, nor the ledges when he can just recover to the top which is hard to access for peach quickly cause her jumps suck. Then barrel hogging when he wants. It's like DL64 all over again, once upon a time it was a good peach stage but now it's actually bad due to all the camping and maneuvering fox/falco/sheik do against her. Good thing they both work against marth still lol.

Besides if the peach player is worse and loses first, then cp's mute and wins, you get to cp yours and win by a fair lot. So unless the peach is actually better, mute doesn't help anyone to autowin anything. Armada hardly needs mute to rapestomp people lol, especially with his after genesis skill level. Stage doesn't help person who's adaptation skillz are top of the world.

Imo, pound 4 rules are quite fair as they are now. :3

Camping foxes are bad for peach on almost every level, but if you stay in the middle around the platforms, I've found it not to be so bad for avoiding lasers and cornering him. And if a fox recovers on the high platforms, you can up-b him > d-smash, nair, or bair.

Maybe I've just played foxes unfamiliar with dk64, but it always works well for me.

 

[Samochan]

Fox can even tech to avoid the whole of dsmash and dsmash sends to wrong direction anyway, so up b to dsmash is not foolproof. And up b doesn't have too much range and if missed, fox got a free recovery and upsmash ko most probably too.

But in any case, fox can't be cornered in such a stage with peach. One laser and it becomes such a cat and mouse game with cat on the disadvantage. <_<;

 

[DoH]

But if you get shined on a slope there's no lag so you can downsmash them ^_^

 

[Samochan]

But if you get shined on a slope there's no lag so you can downsmash them ^_^

How come there's no lag? :o

I've always wondered though... sometimes peach can randomly get out of waveshine hitstun and immediately dsmash. Same with other chars. Why's that? Magical di? :/

 

[DoH]

Cactuar magic

 

[Samochan]

Cactuar magic

Cactuar and the attack of 10,000 needles.

Now if he only were to main sheik...

 

[TresChikon]

Landing animation makes the hitstun go away I suppose.

Peach can escape a shine combo if a Fox uses a nair or anything besides dair at higher/mid percentages to start it up. This is because it may cause her to take the shine aerially and when she drops...well..no hitstun.

The only way to prevent Peach or anyone from escaping like this is to use dair and pin them to the ground before you shine.

That's why nairshinanairshinenairshine ain't as good no more.

 

[Samochan]

Sooo... if you were to like, smash di the shine up or something, thus you'd just barely go airborne and then land, then you'd be able to punish the shine?

 

[Deleted member]

every 4 inputs you press during hitstun cuts your stun by 1 frame. smash DI and mashing buttons = beating waveshine.

IMO peach ****ing made out in the new stage list. you lost a gay CP that no one wants to play on, kept the other one solidly, took PS off of neutral and narrowed the list and thus the odds of fountain/DL64 to be eliminated in stage striking.

 

[DoH]

Max, everyone wants to play on Mute City

 

[TresChikon]

Sooo... if you were to like, smash di the shine up or something, thus you'd just barely go airborne and then land, then you'd be able to punish the shine?

Nope, that's called Forbidden DI.

Anything that hits you downwards or sideways such as Fox's d-smash, Fox's shine, or Fox's drill cannot be SDI'ed upwards while you are grounded.

If that was possible you could take any of those hits airborne and escape anything, resulting in super brokenness. The game developers realized this and made sure that you remained pinned down to the ground when these moves happen.

 

[TresChikon]

Did some reading from SDM's frame data page and it said if you take a shine aerially and you don't fall, most characters will receive only 9 frames of lag compared to the 33 frames that you would take while grounded. Bowser, DK, and Luigi take 11 frames of lag, but who cares about them.