Opinions For The New Tier List

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Hey kirbykaze you trying to be funny again? swear you need a drum line so I can get it. Also KK you fail to understand how mellow I am for myself here most of the time. Somedays you'd think I forgot to take my pills or something. Don't know i'm all kinds of crazy.

 

[zeldasmash]

Top Tier
Fox, Falco, Sheik
High Tier
Marth, Jiggs, CF, Peach, Samus, Ganon
Mid Tier
Ice Climbers, Dr.Mario/Mario, Luigi, Link
Low Tier
Pikachu, DK, Mewtwo, Roy, Young Link
Bottom Tier
Zelda, GAW, Yoshi, Ness
Negligible Tier
Pichu, Kirby, Bowser

 

[G.L.]

does everyone think sheik is tied in top 3? i thought she lost to fox falco and puff.

 

[Bamesy]

You're all silly.

Cute, but exceptionally silly.

 

[Little England]

The Melee tier list isn't a reflection of the best character it's meant to represent the best character for winning tournaments based on results, as it has been since the dawn of time.

I thought the tier list was supposed to represent the best characters with respect to human ability. I don't see how tournament results should be the defining source. Maybe you weren't saying that though, so correct me if I'm wrong. lol

Also KK, sometimes I don't understand why you respond to the people you do...boredom would seem like the only excuse.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fox/falco

Sheik/marth/puff

Peach/falcon

Ics/Samus/ganon/doc

Errybody else

 

[zeldasmash]

does everyone think sheik is tied in top 3? i thought she lost to fox falco and puff.

Sheik has been the leader of 7 Melee tier lists in a ROW. Jiggs has always been behind her, until now. Sheik has way better matchups (according to the top chart in the Melee Matchup Chart) and she can kill easier.

 

[Little England]

I separated by groups then put the orders within each group. I can post opinions and such for my reasonings if people care for them.

S: Fox
A: Falco, Sheik
B: Marth, Jigglypuff
C: Falcon, Peach
D: ICs, Ganon, Doc
E: Samus, Luigi, Pikachu
F: Link, Mario, DK
G: Roy, Zelda, Young Link, Mewtwo
H: G&W, Yoshi, Bowser
I: Pichu, Ness, Kirby

 

[KirbyKaze]

Also KK, sometimes I don't understand why you respond to the people you do...boredom would seem like the only excuse.

I'm a people person.

 

[Bamesy]

I'm a people .

Fixed?

Nice 'list' little 'england' it's 'ok' but 'still' silly.

Cute

 

[zeldasmash]

In my opinion, the groups are a bit small. Here are better

S:

A:

/

B:

/

C:

D:

E:

F:

 

[Bing]

hmm, Im glad no one(atleast that I've read) has Jiggs as #1, Jiggs is not #1, i'd say, like almost everyone else, its Fox or Sheik, then Falco, Marth, Jiggs

 

[Nø Ca$h]

fox
sheik
falco
marth
puff
peach
falcon
doc
IC
ganon
samus
pika

 

[Armada]

Peach doesn't have as many near impossible match-ups as falcon sheik is worse than peach can understand.

What is "impossible matchups" ?

60-40? 65-35? 70-30?
And how many have Falcon (Shiek Falco fox?)

No offense but this commuinty have always give Falcon too much cred.

I don´t understand why everyone change thier mind really fast when a new char place better.

Ok i guees that´s becuase the most people just looks at the results and then they have a new list.

My advice is try too understand the game better and not just look at the results (the change of peoples opinion proves what i am talking about).

The only char i can´t see this on is Fox.

 

[Bing]

What is "impossible matchups" ?

My advice is try too understand the game better and not just look at the results (the change of peoples opinion proves what i am talking about).

The only char i can´t see this on is Fox.

well said Armada, well said.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

to be fair impossible match-ups are like fast chatcer vs kirby on a big stage and not letting kirby touch them. near impossible would be like roy vs gannon or pichu vs peach/ice climbers/sheik or a along those lines.

Really as falcon goes I feel fairly limited as him from his recovery, taking hits(being grabbed/comboed/tech chased), his size, and the lack of projectiles and a sheild game worth talking about.

I hate hate peach and my peach even without playing her at all is much better than my falcon is and I can't fight peachs. So I really don't know who's better because I don't know everything about both. But I could see the debate on both sides.

I'm not going to argue s*** I don't know 100% anyone wanta pichu vs kirby XD kidding.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I agree with armada. Falcon is overrated. Idk how someone can put him above peach. Also, samus is definitely not better than ganon or ics but is probably close with doc.

 

[Bing]

I agree with armada. Falcon is overrated. Idk how someone can put him above peach. Also, samus is definitely not better than ganon or ics but is probably close with doc.

He gets put above a lot of Character solely because he's badass.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

He gets put above a lot of Character solely because he's badass.

if this was true, marth would be bottom tier.













Also: for the relevant post: using dashes for me being either not sure or even, showing what I define as each

Top: 0 bad matchups except for possibly each other, consistent results, many people main them
Falco/Fox, Sheik, Jigglypuff, Marth

High: Possibly 1 or 2 somewhat bad matchups, possibly one major weakness holding the character back from Top (for example Sheik for CF), somewhat consistent, many people main them, most things are known, most techniques left are too difficult for people to use perfectly.
Peach, CF, Ganondorf, Ice Climbers

Middle: Are possibly better due to certain people maining them, consistent tournament results by only the top of their character, some mains, Is in general the character might be really good but the metagame isn't exploited enough
Pikachu, Samus Dr.Mario, Luigi, Link, Mario

Low: Suffers from some bad matchups or a low amount of people use them, metagame is stagnant with the exception of 1 or 2 people (Taj for M2 for example)
DK, Mewtwo, Roy, Young Link, Yoshi

Bottom: Almost 0 good matchups mostly poor, almost no mains, metagame is completely stagnant
Zelda/Game and Watch, Ness, Bowser, Pichu/Kirby

 

[S l o X]

?

I'd put CF above Peach any day. Seriously? He holds his own against spacies (lol peach good luck) and does better in so many matchups it's stupid. Against Ice Climbers, he doesn't do as well as Peach but he does fine. Jiggs? NBD. Marth? NBD. How does Peach do against those two? Oh . . . okay. Ganon? No idea but he's combo food for Falcon. Pikachu? Peach doesn't do too well against him, no idea about Falcon.

Enlighten me.

Falco / Fox / Shiek (Marth) / Marth (Shiek) / Jiggs / CF / Peach / IC / Ganon / Pika / Samus.

 

[Rappster]

if this was true, marth would be bottom tier.













Also: for the relevant post: using dashes for me being either not sure or even, showing what I define as each

Top: 0 bad matchups except for possibly each other, consistent results, many people main them
Falco/Fox, Sheik, Jigglypuff, Marth

High: Possibly 1 or 2 somewhat bad matchups, possibly one major weakness holding the character back from Top (for example Sheik for CF), somewhat consistent, many people main them, most things are known, most techniques left are too difficult for people to use perfectly.
Peach, CF, Ganondorf, Ice Climbers

Middle: Are possibly better due to certain people maining them, consistent tournament results by only the top of their character, some mains, Is in general the character might be really good but the metagame isn't exploited enough
Pikachu, Samus Dr.Mario, Luigi, Link, Mario

Low: Suffers from some bad matchups or a low amount of people use them, metagame is stagnant with the exception of 1 or 2 people (Taj for M2 for example)
DK, Mewtwo, Roy, Young Link, Yoshi

Bottom: Almost 0 good matchups mostly poor, almost no mains, metagame is completely stagnant
Zelda/Game and Watch, Ness, Bowser, Pichu/Kirby

well said, but by your own definitions, zelda is low teir.
Cosmo is what, #2 in the midwest maining zedla?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

^i think you got the names of the characters wrong. Peach does better against fox, falco, puff, pikachu than falcon does. You also forgot to mention Sheik. Peach's bad match-ups are significantly closer to even than falcon's.


edit: cosmo has kinda fallen in rankings in MW. List should be up soon but he is somewhere around 5th.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

the bottom of some of these tiers or the top of some of the other ones could possibly be switched (such as Marth being in top of high or Zelda being bottom of low). Possibly even Pikachu being bottom of high for another one. In my opinion and what it seems like others, CF is overrated and Peach is underrated. I also think Pikachu is underrated as well.

I was separating for convenience sake.

 

[Bing]

lmfao, i make a not serious post and someone jumps on it... I love Falcon, and he is top 8, but a TAD over rated...

 

[KirbyKaze]

What makes Peach better vs Fox and Puff?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falcon and peach probably do about the same against puff.

against fox, peach actually has moves that don't get flat out beat by fox's bair and much more guaranteed punishments, better edge guard game, fast moves, downsmash, ect. She loses to lasers and stuff tho, but its better than losing to lasers and bair and getting hit once = techchased/juggled to death stuff.

 

[Armada]

What makes Peach better vs Fox and Puff?

Just wonder that to.

Sveet: The same against Puff?
Puff is a bit ( or a lot in some situations) better on everything than Peach tha´s a big reason why that matchup is so ****ing bad.

You can´edgeguard her but she have a good edgeguard against you.
Peach have of of the worst punishment for rest in the game
Your combos give puff around 20% when puff killing you with rest.
Puff Bair out rangeing everything and when Peach is that slow you can´t pretty much do nothing against that bair.
One rest and that´s kinda impossible to make a comback from that because Peach have no good punishment against puff.



I´m not saying Peach is a terrible char or something like that but CF have better chance against Puff and Fox (i´m too tiered that´s why i not will writing these kind of arguments for Peach against puff)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

CF can't grab puff. CF gets comboed and tech chased into rest hard.

they both have a bad matchup with puff, but in different ways. Falcon loses without adequate range and priority, peach loses in chip damage. Puff has more range than peach, but peach has more priority. On paper the matchup seems stupid bad for peach but in practice her priority can be used smartly to trade and beat puff's stuff. Also for how hard peach has it punishing rest, puff has just as hard a time landing a rest.

i consider the match-ups similarly bad and winnable.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falcon and peach probably do about the same against puff.

against fox, peach actually has moves that don't get flat out beat by fox's bair and much more guaranteed punishments, better edge guard game, fast moves, downsmash, ect. She loses to lasers and stuff tho, but its better than losing to lasers and bair and getting hit once = techchased/juggled to death stuff.

If Fox is above Falcon then Uair trumps his Bair.

If they're ground level, it's extremely difficult to approach Falcon effectively with a Bair because of its nature as a Bair. Shine turn around Bairs, jump Bairs, and pivot Bairs are not nearly as mobile as Nairs and other things he can do to cover space and attack with, which means Bair is inherently more vulnerable to good dash dancing than his other stuff. This is compounded by the fact that it lags more than his other go-to aerials and Fox as a character doesn't have good range.

Peach doesn't have much in the way of guaranteed punishes. Beyond inescapable chain grab that's only really relevant on FD and maybe the middle of Dreamland, U-throw Nair/Uair at KO percent, and the U-throw D-smash combo, she doesn't have much in the way of guaranteed punishes. And she's awful at tech chasing.

Peach's edgeguard game is worse than Falcon's vs Fox. Peach has huge issues with high recoveries and every move in her arsenal sends at a high trajectory. She also misses out on a ledgehop aerial game entirely. Falcon can go out further, higher, and faster than her.

 

[Pi]

armada's posts are so cute

 

[Armada]

armada's posts are so cute

haha.

I know that post kinda sucks and are one sided.

But my point is CF is allways overrated and actually he haven´t a more bad matchup against Puff than Peach.

And i am not trying to say CF is better cause i gave Peach a higher place on the tier list (in NTSC too).

 

[0Room]

CF is overrated because of his consistent ability to pull out wins where he shouldn't.

His combo game is stupid, his dash dance range is stupid, moonwalk-> FP is just plain stupid, he' s just a stupid character.
And that's what makes him amazing.

Any Falcon can beat any other character if you can get those reads, and that's what keeps him up there.
Now of course, with good players comes impossible tech chases, and by the human nature of the player, Falcon becomes worse.
But he's an absolutely amazing punisher of ANY kind of predictability or habits, and that's what I think is so great about him.

Of course he has a thousand downsides that have all been covered, and I'm not going for a WOT here, but to me at least, the reason why Falcon is so great is because he completely depends on the player to carry him to victory. He has the tools to stuff quite a few good approaches [Bair beating Fox's nair, anyone?] and the speed/combo ability to capitalize on ANY mistakes.

That, and he's just so darn fun to play.

So yes, maybe Falcon is overrated, but I promise you that there is a reason for that.

 

[Rykard]

Top: 0 bad matchups except for possibly each other, consistent results, many people main them
Falco/Fox, Sheik, Jigglypuff, Marth

High: Possibly 1 or 2 somewhat bad matchups, possibly one major weakness holding the character back from Top (for example Sheik for CF), somewhat consistent, many people main them, most things are known, most techniques left are too difficult for people to use perfectly.
Peach, CF, Ganondorf, Ice Climbers

Middle: Are possibly better due to certain people maining them, consistent tournament results by only the top of their character, some mains, Is in general the character might be really good but the metagame isn't exploited enough
Pikachu, Samus Dr.Mario, Luigi, Link, Mario

Low: Suffers from some bad matchups or a low amount of people use them, metagame is stagnant with the exception of 1 or 2 people (Taj for M2 for example)
DK, Mewtwo, Roy, Young Link, Yoshi

Bottom: Almost 0 good matchups mostly poor, almost no mains, metagame is completely stagnant
Zelda/Game and Watch, Ness, Bowser, Pichu/Kirby

Honestly, this is probably the best formula for determining tiers i have heard so far. Whether or not the characters and such are in the right place is obviously up for discussion, but it really makes the most sense when it comes down to it.

I also like how you say that the actual metagame for the low tier characters is somewhat less than the higher tiered ones because that addresses one of the main problems with them. It's like saying, ok these characters might not be that great, but there is definitely a ton of stuff that we still don't know they are capable of and all it really takes is for someone to step up and show us. That's what Taj is doing with Mewtwo which by your logic (and mine) accurately rates mewtwo as low tier because even though it has proven that mewtwo can compete, there are still a lot of flaws that can be exploited by some of the better characters

 

[Nø Ca$h]

peach has turnips and falcon doesnt. thats maybe the only thing peach has over falcon vs puff. its still really hard to hit puff with turnips because of her airial mobility.

 

[0Room]

Honestly, this is probably the best formula for determining tiers i have heard so far. Whether or not the characters and such are in the right place is obviously up for discussion, but it really makes the most sense when it comes down to it.

I also like how you say that the actual metagame for the low tier characters is somewhat less than the higher tiered ones because that addresses one of the main problems with them. It's like saying, ok these characters might not be that great, but there is definitely a ton of stuff that we still don't know they are capable of and all it really takes is for someone to step up and show us. That's what Taj is doing with Mewtwo which by your logic accurately rates mewtwo as low tier

I totally agree, this is definitely the way to go IMO
I dunno about Ganon being High Tier, but other than that I agree with the post before this.

peach has turnips and falcon doesnt. thats maybe the only thing peach has over falcon vs puff. its still really hard to hit puff with turnips because of her airial mobility.

I agree with Armada, saying that they have about the same match up vs Puff.
Falcon just does it with more flair.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If Fox is above Falcon then Uair trumps his Bair.

If they're ground level, it's extremely difficult to approach Falcon effectively with a Bair because of its nature as a Bair. Shine turn around Bairs, jump Bairs, and pivot Bairs are not nearly as mobile as Nairs and other things he can do to cover space and attack with, which means Bair is inherently more vulnerable to good dash dancing than his other stuff. This is compounded by the fact that it lags more than his other go-to aerials and Fox as a character doesn't have good range.

Peach doesn't have much in the way of guaranteed punishes. Beyond inescapable chain grab that's only really relevant on FD and maybe the middle of Dreamland, U-throw Nair/Uair at KO percent, and the U-throw D-smash combo, she doesn't have much in the way of guaranteed punishes. And she's awful at tech chasing.

Peach's edgeguard game is worse than Falcon's vs Fox. Peach has huge issues with high recoveries and every move in her arsenal sends at a high trajectory. She also misses out on a ledgehop aerial game entirely. Falcon can go out further, higher, and faster than her.

i wrote a 5 paragraph rebuttal but it is lost in the 502 errors that have been plaguing the boards.

 

[Doc King]

Anybody think that the ice climbers are underrated since theyre the only ones that have infinites in tourney play and theyre 2 ppl in one.

You can't forget ppl that Falcon is very fasty and strong so he's a good character (Although I think that Peach is better than him (although not the ics))

Also DK should be higher cause of his amazing throws and combos and Link because of his survivalbility and up B move and good techniques.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Ice climbers have always been in about the right place only debate is a spot lower. their grabs are basically death always infi.s don't change that. however they are easy to gay to death. If your charcter can spam something hard to punish against them you basically do that the whole match with mix-ups on timing normally.

falcon isn't that great he's high risk/reward and can't approach I ply as pichu and yeah falcon can't approach worth s*** and expect to combo someone without predictables on their reactions. However if his foe is like toatlly grounded then it's much easier because C-stick down to DD grab all day.

also falcon is countered decently and doesn't just auto **** people like ice climbers/peach/puff/space aniamls/ marth and gannon to noobs. Falcon wins more on your own skill level also yeah I know and m2/link vs falcon it sucks but not as much as if they played ice climbers or space animals.

anyone ever tech chase with a falcon punch?

ice climbers are without a doubt the hardest charcter to play as so hard that people simplely gave up on their flashy tech skill in matches like if you see JC shines as fox quad blocks and de-synces could in theory go farther. plus to keep a level head is very hard.

 

[Doc King]

Falcon doesn't have as hard of an approach as some other characters like Roy, Bowser, Kirby, and Peach. The reason I think Falcon can approach better than Peach is because Falcon is a lot faster and his moves aren't as slow. Although what keeps him from beating peach is her amazing up throw and d smash and f throw while Falcon can get gimped and comboed pretty easy.

I'm pretty sure that the ics are better than both at their potential game but in tourney play, Falcon and Peach do better.

I think that Ganon should be a high tier because of his very fast chain throw and amazing power and gimp game. Also his survivalbility is really good.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Are you serious?

1st off roy can't approach because if he lands a hit he gets punished and kirby can't because he SERIOUSLY can't even touch them. peach camps better than falcon can approach. you don't understand what you're talking about.

Yeah if people were better at the ice climbers they may be higher on the list WTF?

gannon isn't good. the only reason he's decent is because of his jabs and some other random thing. Seriously if you just wait around and approach gannon when it's safe it's easy to win even as f***ing pichu maybe not as someone who lacks a move as safe as nair so i'll give you that.

most people have somekind of chain throw. his chain throw isn't as legit as you think He doesn't get grabs his only set-ups I know of is dair or side-B with a very small window. also the fact his grab range sucks it's fun to duck under and punish him hard for trying.

Seriously go watch some matchs gannon wins if you make mistakes that gannon sees don't rush him too hard and you'll win i'm not surprised when I think about it that mango lost to a gannon as offensive as he plays.