Opinions For The New Tier List

[Nygma]

The fact that the smash tier lists have always been defined by:

Who you have the most chance of winning a tournament with


is hilarious.

Because in no way shape or form does that define who the best character is. at all.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well Kirby's upair is pretty strong and useful for combos, his up tilt move can be a combo starter, his Bair is also a good move. Kirby can do special things like Wall of pain, Kirby cide, can copy abilities and use them for different strategies (like using Falco's lazers or using Doc's pills).

You can't just claim victory right away, you have to get other ppl to agree.

I agree with him.

Pichu is just a better character, for the reasons ICG explained.

Does any1 think that the ICS should be higher since they have wobbling and they're 2 characters in one so you can very special things with them.

No, ICs are one of the few characters I am entirely happy with there position.

its been NINE YEARS
insane crazy guy is on some different ****
a base tier list is which characters attirbutes are shown to fit into the game the best so they can excel above the rest. simple statistics and data can show who is the best character (after discovering the universal options), match play into about a year roughly can show you whos going to excel and whos gonna get left.
making up bull like "oh well i can dashdance then wavedash and then grab" isnt increasing a charaters tier position. ICGs analogies are bad and he should feel bad. universal strafes dont help causes.

but then i seen kirby kazes post and forgot that yall base the tier list on some other ****.
in reality that should be a character ranking list cause what the thread is conflicting on is wins.

I agree, it is silly that it takes results into account, I wasn't arguing with that. I was just pointing out the sillyness of this statement: "im not close minded but it least i can understand the difference in the metagame (people playing smarter) and not mistake for a tier list change."

People playing better does affect the tier list, because it better shows a characters potential.

 

[azianraven]

ICs are like two halves that make one whole rather than two characters in one.

Unless one were to bring up and support the argument that Popo is better than some members of the melee cast. Nana of course is top tier, but that goes without saying.

Tier list is fine. I just hate that jiggs is top.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Ice climbers have really in truth always been right in place i've never really disargeed but sometimes it feels like maybe it's kindof debateable but really it's cool.

also Masmasher@ you still haven't proved to me we know every detail about this game can you show me the lists of hit stun? No you can't can you? BEfore you say your wrong it's been a long time you're dumb again please show me the fully detailed list of hit stun for every move for sheild and body. Also metagame doesn't really stop moving chess's metagame has been moving forward forever it seems HOWever i'm pretty sure at some point it halted. but it's been moving forward for decades melee is nearly a decade old chess has been moving forward for 100s of years.

but i'm going to keep throwing the same s*** in your face if you don't use more proof other than it's been a long time. Watch what happens when you say you're wrong/dumb and metagame/being able to discover new things is now impossible because it's been a long time.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

metaknight should be banned

 

[EPsilon933]

metaknight should be banned

Change the damage ratio to 1.1

MetaKnight doesn't combo anymore.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I didn't think metaknight combo'd to begin with.

 

[Masmasher@]

I agree with him.

Pichu is just a better character, for the reasons ICG explained.



No, ICs are one of the few characters I am entirely happy with there position.



I agree, it is silly that it takes results into account, I wasn't arguing with that. I was just pointing out the sillyness of this statement: "im not close minded but it least i can understand the difference in the metagame (people playing smarter) and not mistake for a tier list change."

People playing better does affect the tier list, because it better shows a characters potential.

ima put it like this.
lets use jiggly puff as a example. she has essentially the best recovery in the game compared to someone like captain falcon whos recovery is well...not so good.
thats going to be the fact for as long as you play this game. combing these unchangable facts like speed, power, range mobility etc... and finding out who can be utilized the best... that is a tier list.
or use tekken 6 as a example. through frame data, and about 2 years worth a play time its shown that law is the best character.
what im saying is that metagame and tier listing isnt really the same thing. a example of metagame would be looking at the begining years of people doing shine combos on people with falco. in the beginning people got ***** because of lack of good di so when the setups happened you got ***** alot harder then now. the meta game has improved because people now know to look for and avoid certain setups altogether. people have a better understanding of how to escape chain throws, how to follow up on combos and di better
but wait...does any of that make the character better then the other? no does it shuffle the characters ? no thats the human playing more effectively.
THAT is metagame
this isnt like some games where yall would get a patch to balance the character i.e increasing a certain characters attack power or what not. THAT would effect the tier list.
like if captain falcons foward tilt suddenly did 50% damage and the damge never lessened, he would be the ****.
ICG is arguing something different and sounds silly.
yall should have a character ranking list.

 

[Doc King]

OK, I'll have to say that Sheik is the best character in the game because of her massive chainthrows, gimp game, and combos. Marth would have to be 2nd because of his great power, speed and combos like the KEN COMBO. Fox will have to be 3rd (above Falco) because of his wave shine combos and many infinites (although most tourney stages don't have walls so therefore, Fox can't be #1 or #2. Falco for 4th because he's pretty beast with his combos, chains, pillars, spikes, etc.

Also, the spacies are below Marf and Sheik because they can be comboed easily and are easy to kill (although not so much upwards).

I actually think that Ics should be 5th because of wobbling and that they're 2 characters in one so they can do uniques and special things.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Wait I didn't see you post the hit shun list So clearly don't know everything about the game therefore how the f*** can we say we've maxed out our metagame. you're wrong before I read and now i'll read to be more than fair.

Ok i've read tell you what let me talk about teching WE know all our options right? and there've been small changes to that metagame like tech in place shine. The thing is We've SOLIDILY looked under every stone for teching options right? there's no way to look for more argeed? now let's look at other things that aren't 100% delopolved. Like let's say something like pichu's combo game right.

let's go simple if I upair vs fox what do we know about that? at low percents you could do a ground move and you can always upair again right? When I carefully studied percents and junk I learned that at 60% I could do anything I wanted this means I could grab SHFF upair fox all over the stage as much as I want till he go to close to an edge and I could grab b-throw or nair him and he'd di with my nair to fly off to far to have any chance of recovering. Know these percents let's me know my combo limits something not known till I studied it carefully and it's very important if you want to death combo fox.

I could next study the percents to follow up with up-smash and you again could see the use of that up-smash is solid damage and maybe I could find a solid percent to up-smash d-smash to edge gaurd easy gimp. I seriously watch for these percents vs fox at times.

I recnetly learned that not even bowser can CC upair at 30% way to force CCers to find new ways of punishing me. not even a month old knowledge. all useful in it's place.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

falcons recovery is pretty good. people like hax make it so dumb. its like "im holding left, sike!... oh i change my mind"

 

[t3h Icy]

falcons recovery is pretty good. people like hax make it so dumb. its like "im holding left, sike!... oh i change my mind"

SS does this all the time and it makes his opponents look ********. XD

 

[Nygma]

Doc king-that was the funniest post I've ever read.

Thank You for that.

 

[CloneHat]

fox will have to be 3rd (above falco) because of his wave shine combos and many infinites (although most tourney stages don't have walls so therefore, fox can't be #1 or #2.

Thus it is proven.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ima put it like this.
lets use jiggly puff as a example. she has essentially the best recovery in the game compared to someone like captain falcon whos recovery is well...not so good.
thats going to be the fact for as long as you play this game. combing these unchangable facts like speed, power, range mobility etc... and finding out who can be utilized the best... that is a tier list.
or use tekken 6 as a example. through frame data, and about 2 years worth a play time its shown that law is the best character.
what im saying is that metagame and tier listing isnt really the same thing. a example of metagame would be looking at the begining years of people doing shine combos on people with falco. in the beginning people got ***** because of lack of good di so when the setups happened you got ***** alot harder then now. the meta game has improved because people now know to look for and avoid certain setups altogether. people have a better understanding of how to escape chain throws, how to follow up on combos and di better
but wait...does any of that make the character better then the other? no does it shuffle the characters ? no thats the human playing more effectively.
THAT is metagame
this isnt like some games where yall would get a patch to balance the character i.e increasing a certain characters attack power or what not. THAT would effect the tier list.
like if captain falcons foward tilt suddenly did 50% damage and the damge never lessened, he would be the ****.
ICG is arguing something different and sounds silly.
yall should have a character ranking list.

That is silly. You are saying that we should make a tier list based on the character's data alone, when the player is just as important. Take a character like Captain Falcon, he relies quite heavily on prediction for tech chases, while a character like Fox relies on player finger speed. A tier list is pointless if a character (like Fox) is at the top for something a human can't even do, and a character like Falcon is in the middle (instead of upper) because the human ability to "mind-game" isn't factored.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

OK, I'll have to say that Sheik is the best character in the game because of her massive chainthrows, gimp game, and combos. Marth would have to be 2nd because of his great power, speed and combos like the KEN COMBO. Fox will have to be 3rd (above Falco) because of his wave shine combos and many infinites (although most tourney stages don't have walls so therefore, Fox can't be #1 or #2. Falco for 4th because he's pretty beast with his combos, chains, pillars, spikes, etc.

Also, the spacies are below Marf and Sheik because they can be comboed easily and are easy to kill (although not so much upwards).

I actually think that Ics should be 5th because of wobbling and that they're 2 characters in one so they can do uniques and special things.

God, so sigging the Fox part.

 

[Masmasher@]

That is silly. You are saying that we should make a tier list based on the character's data alone, when the player is just as important. Take a character like Captain Falcon, he relies quite heavily on prediction for tech chases, while a character like Fox relies on player finger speed. A tier list is pointless if a character (like Fox) is at the top for something a human can't even do, and a character like Falcon is in the middle (instead of upper) because the human ability to "mind-game" isn't factored.

thats why you would make a character rankings list to account for these things.
not a change in the tier list. the player is imprtant but they are a varible that has no finite change. the charter ranking would account for all these conceiviable situations you are talking about, as they would be utilized in match play.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I declare pichu 12th best if players aren't a varible. His DD, d-tilt, and nair are unbeatable. PROVE ME WRONG I DARE YOU

 

[Doc King]

OK, lets go!

I've said this many times, worst range, damages itself, lightest character and very easy to kill, poor matchups, crappy moves, and not so much killing moves.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

again how what does kirby have that's better? self dmaage isn't important and all his moves are good.

kirby isn't better than DD, nair d-tilt and throw in a grab somewhere.


serious;y kirby can't camp that good and that's all kirby does is camp.

 

[Megatron1]

From Smash Wiki:

"Pichu is currently ranked in the negligible tier due to the fact that it has poor range, most people can easily chain throw it despite it being small and being the lightest character in the game, which is another huge flaw, and it takes damage from its own attacks, resulting in abysmal matchups (though it has two favorable matchups, which are against Mewtwo and Kirby). "

Granted, we did not describe it as well as this community would have and it is probaly out of date. However, what you said Doc looks VERY close to what I just pasted.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

thats why you would make a character rankings list to account for these things.
not a change in the tier list. the player is imprtant but they are a varible that has no finite change. the charter ranking would account for all these conceiviable situations you are talking about, as they would be utilized in match play.

It's fair enough that a Character Ranking list and a Tier List could be seperate things, but... What's the point? No other fighting games have them, our tier list already serves as a "Character Ranking" list, and a tier list in the sense you described would be completely pointless (who cares who is on top without the variable of a player, might as well be looking at the tier list of a different game).

OK, lets go!

I've said this many times, worst range, damages itself, lightest character and very easy to kill, poor matchups, crappy moves, and not so much killing moves.

You have proven time and time again to have no idea what you are talking about, so I have no idea why I am responding to this, but:

Range is definitely a problem.
Damaging himself is not as big a problem as many people think. It still is a problem, but hardly worth noting.
Crappy moves is completely false.
And he has several killing moves: Thunder, Up Smash, Down Smash, Forward Smash, Bair and Dair can all kill.

Again, you know nothing about this game anyway.

From Smash Wiki:

"Pichu is currently ranked in the negligible tier due to the fact that it has poor range, most people can easily chain throw it despite it being small and being the lightest character in the game, which is another huge flaw, and it takes damage from its own attacks, resulting in abysmal matchups (though it has two favorable matchups, which are against Mewtwo and Kirby). "

Granted, we did not describe it as well as this community would have and it is probaly out of date. However, what you said Doc looks VERY close to what I just pasted.

Well, most people being able to chain throw it is a complete and utter fallacy.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Pichu only has 2 problems guys I dare you to prove me wrong.

his problems are
1. range argee?
2. can't take hits really but still not as bad as fox.

then pichu comes in with great movement nearly totally destroys is taking hits problem like fox, great grab game(with set-ups and junk), solid defence as in sheild, speed, siz, escape tacics and roll, pichu is amazing fo tearing down walls like puff/marth if they try to wall and you're smart/pateince it's a very easy match-up overall, pichu also has very good kill moves and and edge gaurd well enough to stop like everyone but puff(projectiles tack on a lot of damage so next time she'll die from the blastzone with a bit harder hit) maybe peach I don't know.

Really pichu's nair is nothing short of Godly if you don't sit down and talk about how amazing pichu's nair/movement combo is you're just plain ********. if you're smart his flaws are hard to abuse seriously Once they start nairing you can't stop it. No seriously unless you can giive me a fairly detailed reason why nair is so d*** incredible it's compareable to fox's get out you're prove to many times how dumb you are to be allow to talk again.

 

[Megatron1]

Well, most people being able to chain throw it is a complete and utter fallacy.

I am not to be blamed for this. If you are concerned about this, fix the page yourself. I honestly don't have enough Melee information to do that and me joining this is just to get Doc to realize that what he's saying doesn't make any sense.

 

[Vsin]

If I had to think about Pichu...

First and foremost, his range stinks. Despite the existence of Jolt and Thunder (and Thunder barely counts...not sure how you combo from it...) pretty much all his moves have tiny hitboxes. I challenge anybody to prove otherwise, because I seriously don't know any move that would have "priority" over...well, anything not Pichu.

He's decently fast, but I have never once seen that speed properly compensate for the lack of range. On this point, I'm definitely no expert because I try spacies and say "Wow, what crappy range". Yeah...whole reason I main Marth...

Self-damage is actually pretty minor...unless you're spamming Fairs, I don't see how it becomes a significant issue. But really, don't use that Fair: high self damage for hardly any output. And why bother when you can just chain Nairs like Marths chain Fairs?

Maybe another issue is that his Tilts are so stubby to the point of unusable? Not too sure what to think of this, but last I checked they all use his tail. And his tail barely extends past the regular hitbox. The jab is still pretty good but everything else can barely be considered usable. Ok fine, so his Ftilt uses his legs...his just-as-stubby legs.

Following that, predictability? Pichu's approaches are more or less limited to Jolt and Nair/Bair. Well, maybe mindgamed Thunders, but that's pushing it. Anything else would be way too easy to read and Pichu has more traction than I'd like...making any sort of wave-move use difficult. Maybe a JC USmash, but even that's pushing it since you pretty much have to be inside the target.

I'm not too experienced, but that's my 2 cents.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Usmash???

His ears stick out of the hitbox???
>_<

Wouldn't be an issue if they were intangible....

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

better than kirby's usmash which leaves half his body open (and looks hilarious)

 

[KirbyKaze]

Kirby shouldn't use his U-smash.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Kirby shouldn't use a lot of moves.

also you can in fact combo every charcter with thunder as pichu if it doesn't hit you and precent depending I made the 4th hit hit puff at 4% and I could combo on FD. thunder beats basically everything if they try to do an air battle with pichu somewhat high up (like around their 1st jump high they lose lower they could win.) but i've landed a few thunder combos in semi serious match thunder to up-smash is a sexy combo in pichu dittos.

pichu's WD is somewhat useful for approach sometimes you can WD under them and up-smash but really his range problem is mostly is dealt with by moveable and projectiles fairly solidly.

really the worse his range hurts pichu pichu is for defence like how if let's say falcon tryed to SHFFL something at you his f-tilt might beat it but the range is very riskly plus it doesn't push falcon far enough away like pikachu(more range makes max spacing point farther and makes it harder for someone to counter attack or get in)

Really pichu's f-smash has less range than fox's jab it's like 2/3 of it : P his range is terrible but his speed and projectiles seriously help like how most people could outrange fox but it's hard to space hi out if he is smart with his movement and junk.

 

[Nygma]

So many noobs in this thread. Goodbye.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I am not to be blamed for this. If you are concerned about this, fix the page yourself. I honestly don't have enough Melee information to do that and me joining this is just to get Doc to realize that what he's saying doesn't make any sense.

That wasn't directed at you, I was just pointing out to any Pichu-haters who happened to see your post that it isn't true. Only CG Pichu suffers from is Sheik in NTSC (hell, the ICE CLIMBERS, kings of chain grabs, can't chain grab him ).

If I had to think about Pichu...

First and foremost, his range stinks. Despite the existence of Jolt and Thunder (and Thunder barely counts...not sure how you combo from it...) pretty much all his moves have tiny hitboxes. I challenge anybody to prove otherwise, because I seriously don't know any move that would have "priority" over...well, anything not Pichu.

Yes, his range stinks. This is THE worst part about Pichu.

He's decently fast, but I have never once seen that speed properly compensate for the lack of range. On this point, I'm definitely no expert because I try spacies and say "Wow, what crappy range". Yeah...whole reason I main Marth...

Correctly mixing up dash-dancing, wave-dashing, wave-landing and agility makes Pichu VERY fast.

Self-damage is actually pretty minor...unless you're spamming Fairs, I don't see how it becomes a significant issue. But really, don't use that Fair: high self damage for hardly any output. And why bother when you can just chain Nairs like Marths chain Fairs?

Well, I use Fair a lot for combos (great when they are in the air because it sort-of pulls them down with you and lets you re-start a juggle or usmash for the kill).

I think that my Pichu does around 50%-80% recoil in a game.

Maybe another issue is that his Tilts are so stubby to the point of unusable? Not too sure what to think of this, but last I checked they all use his tail. And his tail barely extends past the regular hitbox. The jab is still pretty good but everything else can barely be considered usable. Ok fine, so his Ftilt uses his legs...his just-as-stubby legs.

This is again, the range issue. His only useful tilts normally are his up tilt and down tilt. His Jab is only useful when you have something to trap them with (the side of the stage or a wall), and his ftilt can be used for edge-guarding iirc.

Following that, predictability? Pichu's approaches are more or less limited to Jolt and Nair/Bair. Well, maybe mindgamed Thunders, but that's pushing it. Anything else would be way too easy to read and Pichu has more traction than I'd like...making any sort of wave-move use difficult. Maybe a JC USmash, but even that's pushing it since you pretty much have to be inside the target.

With speed comes unpredictability. Like I said above, he can be faster than spacies if played right, and this gives him much more openings. His wave-dash is still useful, and I use his wave-land all the time.

 

[Megatron1]

I will aim this at you Doc. Seeing as how you have continued to be oblivious and stubborn in the past, at least acknowledge these experts and consider your argument faulty.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Hey grim don't kid yourself everyone basically grab ***** pichu also ice climbers can d-throw till they want to carge f-smash and kill you.

but the folllowing ppeople can solidly chain throw/tech chase pichu up to at least 50%

sheik
ice climbers
kirby
gannon
falcon
mario
dr. mario
samus

the rest can at least get him at low percents

pichu
marth
G&W
bowser

grabs **** pichu very hard nearly as bad as space animals. however if you're good as pichu he's nearly as hard to grab as fox his nairs are VERY safe against sheild if you know what's up. but really don't kid yourself about having to avoid grabs.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Hey grim don't kid yourself everyone basically grab ***** pichu also ice climbers can d-throw till they want to carge f-smash and kill you.

but the folllowing ppeople can solidly chain throw/tech chase pichu up to at least 50%

sheik
ice climbers
kirby
gannon
falcon
mario
dr. mario
samus

the rest can at least get him at low percents

pichu
marth
G&W
bowser

grabs **** pichu very hard nearly as bad as space animals. however if you're good as pichu he's nearly as hard to grab as fox his nairs are VERY safe against sheild if you know what's up. but really don't kid yourself about having to avoid grabs.

Have you forgotten how to DI bro? Pichu isn't even a fast-faller, how the hell are you getting caught in chain-throws from Ganon and stuff?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

if gannon predicted he can chain throw you to death same for falcon but if not they can just end it with a strong hit.

grabs rrrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaappppppppppppppppeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee pichu other than puffs XD really falco's are worse to us than puffs. Why I love fighting puff she can't f***ing punish compared to most of the cast vs pichu I mean unless you're ******** and use ******** moves that will get you rested. but pichu is pretty hard to rest and he punishs VERY hard.

pichu's di is nearly average man it's not super amazing that ain't puff : P.

but point is pichu really can't take these hits for anything. but being impossible to hit, projectiles, speed, size, sheild, recovery and etc. help worlds without some of it he would be worse cause he'd be fox extreme.

 

[CloneHat]

People like Ganon don't chaingrab fast fallers Tuesday, they specialize in characters with the weight of Pichu and Pikachu. There's a whole other world out there.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

gannon can only chain throw them off of prediction but if he did 50-50 side-B would just start his combos and junk.


pichu again only has 2 flaws that aren't that hard to work around/ cover up.

kirby can't approach and is forced to camp poory yeah about that how's that working out for you? tried of getting lasered yet?


here are the 2 biggest things going for kirby people not knowing S*** and approaching and not camping when it's easy and up-tilt is good and ither moves for people to walk into.


OH I meant he's mad easy to play as WTF WD/ L-cancel sheild grab and you're set SHing is nearly useless for kirby so it hardly even matters. sheik takes more tech skill then kirby

 

[Shadow Huan]

From Smash Wiki:

"Pichu is currently ranked in the negligible tier due to the fact that it has poor range, most people can easily chain throw it despite it being small and being the lightest character in the game, which is another huge flaw, and it takes damage from its own attacks, resulting in abysmal matchups (though it has two favorable matchups, which are against Mewtwo and Kirby). "

Granted, we did not describe it as well as this community would have and it is probaly out of date. However, what you said Doc looks VERY close to what I just pasted.

I lol'd. Mewtwo beats Pichu in that MU, what game are the smashwiki ppl playing?

but yeah, I think that Jiggs should be above Peach and Falcon but that's as high as I'd put her personally. people need to re-learn how to fight jiggs.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I once saw some where it said falco has an inf. combo on must of the cast d-throw shine dair regrab repeat and had details and everything XD.

smashwiki is pretty bad.

Puff is really hard to figure out at worse she is above falcon/peach at best 3rd best seeing how planking isn't part of our metagame.