Opinions For The New Tier List

[Seikend]

You can't argue a character's tier position without considering match ups at all.

You can list all the qualities of a character all day, it doesn't mean jack. What matters is how well they do against characters, and why.

 

[Doc King]

Peach's projectiles arent that great, they can be pretty slow and don't go as far as some other pros like Falcos lazers. Also, Ganon has more than a jab like one of the best wavelands, powerful attacks, and fast, good chainthrows. ICG, I think your just trying to make excuses to make me look wrong all of the time and is not being honest about your tier opinions. Like i could say Puff is the best and Pichu is the worst and then youll say its the other way around just to make me look bad. I might as well call you my mirror or something.

 

[Pragmatic]

ICG, I think your just trying to make excuses to make me look wrong all of the time

Because most of the time, you simply are wrong.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

No I counter your lack of reason.

I've proofed countless times pichu>kirby. you're one sided yourself you don't even compare that jab to anything. turpins to lasers? WTF? totally different in countless ways

 

[KirbyKaze]

ICG I sincerely doubt you've ever "proofed" anything about Pichu's matchups or metagame >_>

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

ICG I sincerely doubt you've ever "proofed" anything about Pichu's matchups or metagame >_>

then i'm a greater troll than even VBM.

however pichu's DD nair is basically all he needs and that is seriously a better/safer option than kirby has.

 

[KirbyKaze]

alright, returning you to the Ignore List right about now...

 

[Bing]

on a personal opinion i do believe that Kirby is infact > than Pichu

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I totally agree, this is definitely the way to go IMO
I dunno about Ganon being High Tier, but other than that I agree with the post before this.

Ganon's position might be slightly bias since I main Ganondorf.

By the way..to say for why I believe the tiers really represent the metagame:

Who thought of Pikachu as a competitive character before Axe?
Was there anyone who thought Jigglypuff was broken before Mango and Hbox started winning every single tourney outside of the...JOKE...tier list that said Jigglypuff was top tier?
Marth was even at one point completely underrated before Ken started to well...Ken Combo.

 

[Doc King]

Was that list really a joke tier list?

Also KirbyKaze congrats on ROM3, you did really good with Sheik.

Anybody think that Sheik is still top tier material since she has an amazing comboing system in her, chain throws, and gimps?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Was that list really a joke tier list?

Also KirbyKaze congrats on ROM3, you did really good with Sheik.

Anybody think that Sheik is still top tier material since she has an amazing comboing system in her, chain throws, and gimps?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=34788...Whoops, edit, the thread doesn't exist anymore (?)
^^^This April Fool List if you weren't around, Jiggs was second...ironically.

For the other note:


In terms of characters like Jigglypuff, Sheik, and Marth as said before for why I added them to the top tier along with Fox and Falco, I was thinking of a few specific things:

1. Do people find all of these characters to have overwhelming good matchups vs A tier and below (with little exceptions)?

2. Similarly, do these characters similarly have almost 0 bad matchups except for possibly each other? (with little exceptions)

3. Do these characters dominate tournaments such as wins, top 8, top 16 in nationals more than other characters?

4. In similarity to number 3, is there a certain person or many people who dominate so heavily with this character that the character virtually deserves Top Tier since they win every single tournament? (M2K before his prime with Marth, now with Sheik, HBox/Mango with Jigglypuff, Mango/PP with Falco, everyone with Fox).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

he was talking about the list posted a few months ago as the "official tier list" which was really just a few member's opinions. it had fox/falco/puff tied for first.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

on a personal opinion i do believe that Kirby is infact > than Pichu

Care to explain? I play a lot of kirby and pichu in fact I main one.

Was that list really a joke tier list?

Also KirbyKaze congrats on ROM3, you did really good with Sheik.

Anybody think that Sheik is still top tier material since she has an amazing comboing system in her, chain throws, and gimps?

your reasoning says pikachu, sheik, marth, fox, falcon, peach, and others are straight up top tier material because they all have a good combo game/chain throws and are good at gimps.

you don't give reasons that make sense.

If I said pichu was better than kirby because his top tier match-ups are more bareable.

also the fact that is you have a clue what you're doing kirby should basically auto-lose because kirby has no approach all his SHFFL or air moves areextremely riskly to approach with because kirby can't really sheild pressure unless maybe he like baired and they couldn't reach(like falcon, but why is falcon sheilding?) that and if he ran up and ducked under their sheild.

Really the only thing that is somewhat safe is to use his poor DD to a grab or d-tilt if if I am running away XD kirby only works if they picked a charcter that isn't faster or has a problem with his camping like zedla XD you have to be zedla bad for kirby to be like O : serious and roy bad.

if I choice not to take a risk vs kirby as a fair amount of charcters you can EASILY win. also the SD tactics WTF??? they aren't even cleaver oh i'm hanging on an edge now what?hit kirby from above or wait for him to try to get back up and punish him.

not only is kirby's approach fail as f*** but it doesn't even really set up anything or pressure unless he can tech chase them with d-throw if he can't he'll just have to get punished for using d-throw like with rest XD.

kirby's only great move is up-tilt then a few decent moves like sheild, bair, duck, dair and overall suck up isn't that useful or even landable.

kirby is extremely gimpicky and the best thing about him is no knows how to fight him.

seriously if you know how to fight pichu that still doesn't solve the fact his nair isn't punishable really the thing is if you think he will nair he could really just SH at you and 2nd jump back to jolt countering your counter and if you just sheild it you get punished.

Kirby lives off people not knowing what to do more than any other charcter in this game. WTF? you got hit by kirby as fox? you don't know how to play. pichu has mix-ups and better punsihment and better camping in most cases.

It's really annoying pichu's movement camping with a few jolts> bairs and WD back d-tilt plus pichu's nair punishes harder than a bair or d-tilt it sets-up moves gasp and ca let you combo or pressure something kirby lacks other than with up-tilt or sometimes d-throw tech chase.

EXPLAIN why kirby is better without as good as defence/offense, can't approach, or punish hard makes him better when all of those flaws pichu has improved

 

[Pragmatic]

he was talking about the list posted a few months ago as the "official tier list" which was really just a few member's opinions. it had fox/falco/puff tied for first.

Which was surprisingly accurate, in my honest opinion.

 

[Bamesy]

You're all silly.

Really really really silly

 

[Bing]

ICG, I believe Kirby is better just as a preference... there both low to basement tiers...

I find Kirby has better ability to combo and you can Swallowcide(i.e Kirbykaze har har har) giving it better ko abiltiy. but uhh, yeah. Pichu doesnt really combo well, sure you can, but its not easy, atleast with Kirby you can do some u-tilts to grabs or whatever.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I don't think Kirby's u-tilt is his best move in melee but rather his u-air or b-air at least vs. characters near his list.

Neither of these characters are remotely good so why argue about these guys anyway when no one is getting tournament results.

 

[j3ly]

pichus best combo is late nair -> uair -> late bair -> weak nair -> dtilt/grab -> fthrow -> dair/dthrow-> techchase if opponent is cornered

NO ARGUMENTS.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I got thunder upair upair to f-smash on my brothers falco XD he losthis 2nd jump after the 2nd upair so f-smash would've worked no matter what he was near the edge so he had no choices.

seriosuly thunder can combo anyone at 0% on FD as long as it doesn't hit yourself yeah thunder to nair on puff XD.

also nair nair nair is legit even vesus puff if your SH nair rises them up nair again.

fair=tilt or grab/jab or up-smahs if they don't react fast enough. In truth if fair up-tilt was a little tighter pichu could pillar people up to some decent percents.

also to be fair kirby has no grab combos only tech chases with a slow run.

kirby has up-tilt to _______ and i've seen fair fair on floaties like FF near the end to avoid knockback and then kirby has dair to tilt and that's it unless they di hard to you off stage then bair combos work.

plus you have to keep in mind unless like pichu's grab, nair, upair, jolt. none of kirby's have decent set-ups or work as approach.

kirby upair has so bad of range it ruins the move he can't keep sheik in the air with upair like if he was ice climber, sheik, marth or someone esle with decent upair range. also to be fair I feel that bowser's upair has better set-ups and at percent when it could kill plus more range. koopa claw to upair, upair to upair, i've goten d-smash/up-smash to upair and I bet up-throw could work if it chain throws at low percents.

also zedla's bair is much better than kirby's in my book.

nair is an amazing move, it's seriously one of those moves you cnould win with spamming only it I've watched KDJ vs luigi(terrible terrible match-up for pichu like 10-90 much worse than marth) and he basically only used nair and won a few matches. other than puff's bair I seriously can't think of a one move that spammable other than lasers.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Pichu's best combo is u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-smash

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

pichu has twice the grab range as pikachu but i've never seen a pichu chain throw a space animal or anyone to death(falcon too). Maybe I should get over my pride and master it.

however best is debatable by the fact ifyou see an 0death combo by falco shine dair repeat crap till you f-smash or bairisn't as amazing as some falco combos flashiness could also have a mental effect on who's getting rapped and hype the crowd if anyone is watching.

 

[CloneHat]

Pichu's best combo is u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-throw u-smash

And Kirby's is utilt>bair

Eat it Kirby supporters

 

[SpeedGhost]

Top Tier: Sheik/Fox/Jigglypuff
High: Falco/Marth
Upper: Peach, Falcon
Middle: IC's, Samus, Doc, Ganondorf
Low: Pikachu, Mario, Luigi, Link, Mewtwo
Bottom: Dk, Zelda, Roy, Young Link, GW, Yoshi
Negligible: Pichu,Bowswer/Ness/Kirby

Basically, IMO sheik never should have left top tier so I'm putting her back up there with Fox and Jiggs.

I dropped Falco down to High Tier tied with Marth simply because he can be gimped so ridiculously easy.

Upper Tier stayed the same, nothing to really change. Armada is showing Peach can be durty and Falcon has the knee so what am I gunna do haha..

Middle: Kept the IC's first in middle because of their ridiculous chain grabs and such. Moved Doc up ahead of Ganon. Just think Doc has better combo potential and is alot smaller in addition to the pill approach..

Low: Pika moves to number 1 in low tier. Axe repped pika hard and showed the potential of the character in the best competition the world had to offer. I also moved Mewtwo up here which alot of pple probably won't like. I think Mewtwo was pretty uncharted territory for alot of people in the last few years except for Taj really. But a top 17 at Apex... well, there was no character below pikachu (Axe) on the current tier list to place higher than Taj did with Mewtwo at Apex. I think M2 has good combo ability along with teleport mindgames, recovery, and the fact that not alot of people are good at playing a M2 even tho they claim him to be a weak char. Dropped DK down to bottom because frankly, I just think DK sucks and i havent seen anyone do well with him in ages.

Bottom: Pretty much the same except for the edition of DK to the head of the tier and yoshi to the bottom because I think he has a bit more potential then the neg's do.

Negligible: ... Does it really matter? But i think Pichu has the edge on the rest of the neg's.

There u have it..

 

[zeldasmash]

with the exception of Link being low tier it's a good tier list

 

[KirbyKaze]

And Kirby's is utilt>bair

Eat it Kirby supporters

Kirby's works on every character.

Pichu's works on three.

 

[safehaven]

List

I actually really like this list.

A lot.
The only thing I might change is fox, sheik, marth.
Then falco, puff.

But even then, its a great list.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

my only problem with that list is sheik tieing with fox and falco being lower. falco like fox is like made of glass(him weaker as to harding hits but punishes harder and more pressure and junk of course) however i'll admit I think it's easier to catch a falco slip up than fox because if at any time he's combo or pressure stops you can get a grab or something then XD. also falco on the edge is beyond easy to gimp. I swear I try not to laugh at my brother when I get like 3 33% percent gimps.

I understand but falco doesn't get ***** like marth vs sheik or as you would say puff really to be fair falco is like the only charcter who starts off besaically winning or in control. Also marth himself isn't to hard to combo or gimp. and marth to me feels like none of his combos matter unless he gets them off the edge because you'll live to ******** percentiles unless marth can get a random f-smash.

I don't know I have an easy time fighting marths so I may be one sided.

Kirby's works on every character.

Pichu's works on three.

fair to tilt works at any percent any charcter same for nair to stuff and he has a grab combo or b-throw at high percents on everyone. that's way more than kirby can say. get that s*** out of here.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

My issues bolded:

Top Tier: Sheik/Fox/Jigglypuff
High: Falco/Marth
Upper: Peach, Falcon
Middle: IC's, Samus, Doc, Ganondorf
Low: Pikachu, Mario, Luigi, Link, Mewtwo
Bottom: Dk, Zelda, Roy, Young Link, GW, Yoshi
Negligible: Pichu,Bowswer/Ness/Kirby

Basically, IMO sheik never should have left top tier so I'm putting her back up there with Fox and Jiggs.

I dropped Falco down to High Tier tied with Marth simply because he can be gimped so ridiculously easy.

Upper Tier stayed the same, nothing to really change. Armada is showing Peach can be durty and Falcon has the knee so what am I gunna do haha..

Middle: Kept the IC's first in middle because of their ridiculous chain grabs and such. Moved Doc up ahead of Ganon. Just think Doc has better combo potential and is alot smaller in addition to the pill approach..

Low: Pika moves to number 1 in low tier. Axe repped pika hard and showed the potential of the character in the best competition the world had to offer. I also moved Mewtwo up here which alot of pple probably won't like. I think Mewtwo was pretty uncharted territory for alot of people in the last few years except for Taj really. But a top 17 at Apex... well, there was no character below pikachu (Axe) on the current tier list to place higher than Taj did with Mewtwo at Apex. I think M2 has good combo ability along with teleport mindgames, recovery, and the fact that not alot of people are good at playing a M2 even tho they claim him to be a weak char. Dropped DK down to bottom because frankly, I just think DK sucks and i havent seen anyone do well with him in ages.

Bottom: Pretty much the same except for the edition of DK to the head of the tier and yoshi to the bottom because I think he has a bit more potential then the neg's do.

Negligible: ... Does it really matter? But i think Pichu has the edge on the rest of the neg's.

There u have it..

Seeing Pikachu at the top of low tier and not in mid or possibly even bottom of high? Is anyone else in that tier even remotely close to the top 32 in major tournaments with the exception of Taj who is using Marth as well?

Luigi not in mid tier? DK at the top of Bottom tier?
Falco has been dominating tournaments for a while now. I also don't see Falco being gimped often either.

 

[Bing]

Kirby can Swallowcide ftw.

Also you can fair, jab, utilt(more then once ) the bair and bair again

Also you can chain grab with Kirby. I dont know why Im defending this... ICG is defending his main, im just defending a Character I play as once in awhile...

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

kirby has no chain throw he has a tech chase hiwever he has a like 2/3 chance of guessing the right way to run to suck them up namely useful vs falco. which you will getpuncihed once you get the power(FF dair shine bair to lasers and maybe edge gaurd) but it's still worh it. fair jab up-tilt? I'll give you that I guess but not to likly 2 bairs unless they DI into it.

but on kirby's tech chasePeople tend to fall victim of not knowing that moves don't have that much hitstun and tech when they could jump out. Pichu has one also not as long I argee/admit not people still tech when they shouldn't and you can tech chase flaoties and junk. my master plan for it is to not tech and SDI up and out for when he trys to jab reset me.

DOn't get me wrong about swallowcide it's great if it works een if they know what to do if sucked up it's still pretty good. also you can edge gaurd kirby on FoD if he trys to make it back. but people shouldn't falll for it the tricks aren't like WOW that was smart as H*** I got mindraped like it was mango. it's like jump on edge suck or stand near edge and suck. Really how many times do you fall for that a match? guess you're a good player.

CC fair= win against approach bair isn't like puff's with amazing air speed and autocancels even if it still has a great autocancel nor the range.

 

[Doc King]

DK is definately not bottom tier material, he has amazing throws, power, and range. I know he's pretty easy to combo but it takes a while to kill him.

Also ICG, Sheik is very good, but I think the top tier should be like this:

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

DOc king I'm going to rant about WHY your list won't ever be taken serious even if it's right.

You can argee that there are better ways and worse ways to debate about topics right? if we are debating about which move is better say marth's fair and roy's fair why don't say _____'s is better because it set-ups combos, has great range and is fast you argee? that's how you are debating you said

"DK is definately not bottom tier material, he has amazing throws, power, and range. I know he's pretty easy to combo but it takes a while to kill him"

all of this you said also describles bowser IS bottom tier his koopa klaw is really good he has great range and power and lives long and gets combo *****. You're arguements ARE going to fail and you WILL be called out even if you're right for bad reasoning you'll argue about it wasting time and people will think worse about you because they are in fact trying to argee but explain to you that your reasoning is terriblely wrong.

you could explain without saying his throws are great like this. The thing about DK is once he gets past the wall of lasers vs falco and gets his grab even on let's say DL64 DK can run and jump off the stage and up-B his recovery like in other match-ups so even still his grabs don't have to totally be based off of chain throw, tech chase, and upair to punch if you don't have your punch really.

right there I never once said his grab game is gud I made you think it was good with reasons and showed how he may get his grabs I could list set-ups or explain farther how like if he's in falco's face to close to laser DK could DD around a bit and start bairing till falco falco starts using his sheild some or is knocked down then you can chase his tech to the edge or randomly not bair and DD grab.

Because if you can't get a grab your grab game is basically worthless. other than getting you punished for missing.


all this said I disargee with your list 100% seriously ouff's wall isn't to hard to get through with projectiles and if you aren't super combo bait or anything then rest isn't extreme as vs space animals and with good di puff dies right after so it isn't as extreme as it seems

 

[Doc King]

I never said that DK was top tier material, he's just not that bad to be a bottom tier character. Also Puff is really good with her Wall of Pain, her follow ups (up tilt to rest or up throw to rest). Her rest is like one of the strongest moves in the game.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I never said that DK was top tier material, he's just not that bad to be a bottom tier character. Also Puff is really good with her Wall of Pain, her follow ups (up tilt to rest or up throw to rest). Her rest is like one of the strongest moves in the game.

No you don't listen. You said DK shouldn't be that low and you gave a list of traits that bowser has who is much lower therefore those traits/charctes should be higher.

Rest isn't as rest of a kill move as you think because you can still lose a stock from landing it. if you miss you can be killed if you have like 25% damge just vs pichu on DL64. I explained how to deal with the wall also.

an you please explain why it's good without saying it's good i'm trying to be nice and help you.



EDIT:

seriously do you have an illness? or are you just stuborn?

 

[Doc King]

Well Bowser is that low because his moves are really slow and sluggish to really do much on opponents. DK has a good combo system with his throws and up airs and Nairs and stuff. Also Bowsers range isn't that great, DK has better range in his attacks.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

see expalin at least a little will make your posts more legit. to be fair DK is sluggish also and they play different. DK doesn't have the sheild to abuse like bowser.

 

[zeldasmash]

DK is definately not bottom tier material, he has amazing throws, power, and range. I know he's pretty easy to combo but it takes a while to kill him.

Also ICG, Sheik is very good, but I think the top tier should be like this:

:

:

:

:

That's better. But, Fox and Sheik can easily kill Jiggs. Falco is an even matchup with Jiggs. I say it should be like this:

:

:

:

:

 

[zeldasmash]

And another thing, DK is easily comboed and chain-grabbed due to him being a fast-faller and a large target. Everyone can combo DK and he does not stand a chance against does that combo well. Plus, he has terrible vertical recovery. DK is a bottom tier material.

 

[Doc King]

Shouldn't Falco be above Fox because Falco aint as light and easily comboed as Fox and Falco has other ways of killing instead of upwards. Falco even has a chain throw that can chain light characters like Pichu, G&W, and Fox.

 

[zeldasmash]

Falco is easier to edge-guard, terrible recovery and Fox is faster, making him combo easier. And Fox can do a wall-infinite which is something that no character, not even Sheik or Falco, can do in Melee.