Opinions For The New Tier List

[Grim Tuesday]

The tier list isn't a popularity chart, you are right. But what makes you think that Puff is only up there because Mango and HBox do well with her? Do you really think the MBR went "Hurr durr, there are two good Puff players so she is the best character in the game hurr durr"?

She is actually an amazing recovery. Her edge-guarding is so amazing she can juggle enemies off-stage with it, she has a 1-hit kill move that almost everything she has combos into, her recovery is so amazing that some would consider it infinite, she has amazing range on her aerials, she ranks consistently well in tournaments AND she has decent match-ups.

Puff is just good. Accept it.

Oh yeah, I forgot that she can't be combo'd. Add that to my previous list xD

So, how about that F/F/S? Jiggs for high tier. Not top. She's overrated. Just because the best players in the world play as Jiggs, doesn't mean she's insanely good, it just means the players are good. 2008 Tier list was too legit. It just needed Mario and Pika higher.

She's good, accept it. Maybe not Top Tier, but she is definitely higher than Falcon and Peach.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

tournament wins shouldnt have any effect on the tier list

then whay reps metagame?

Some charcters are so bad or never used that their metagame is extremely low and really we don't know anything about them really.I mean sheik just detroys bottom tiers and junk but sheik suffers from top tier match-ups who also counter bottom tiers just not as ungodly hard but bottom tiers still don't have much of a chance. match-ups are a terrible was to figure out who's the best in the game.

This tread is a waste of time these people don't even understand what metagame is.

 

[MooseEatsBear]

She's good, accept it. Maybe not Top Tier, but she is definitely higher than Falcon and Peach.

I know she's good. But she's fifth, top. She can't be above Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth.

 

[Nygma]

I know she's good. But she's fifth, top. She can't be above Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth.

*Agrees*


Everyone is riding jigglypuffs **** because of hbox and mango doing great. Even MaNg0 himself will tell you she is not top tier.

He thinks ****ing Sheik and Marth all still top tier and there is a definite argument for this:

You can make a dozen mistakes and still win and just do stupid things.

How on point do marth and shiek have to be? Not really. You just walk around and hit buttons and tilts and you win if you're smar.

What do you have to do with Falco and Fox consistently?

-combos
-gimps pressure
-great defensive game
-need to be much more consistent


and jigglypuff?

-you die at like 90% on all stages minus dreamland and brinstar
-you have to work your *** off to get in on a good fox/marth and be REALLY patient
-You're AVERAGE on all stages.


The fact is, although it sounds drawn out and boring Marth and Sheik can make dozens of mistakes and not give a crap because all they have to do is get a grab, do stupid stuff, and then they get into a quick and easy edge guard position. Not to mention, Marth arguably has one of the best recoveries in the game amongst top tiers (have you seen G Money recover?) and Sheiks isn't so bad for a top tier. It's definitely not ****...but it isn't great. It's par.

I really used to think that Falco was second best but i've had a change of opinion lately. Falco has to work sooooo hard to be good that it's not even funny. He has the best stage control in the game overall but he can't make mistakes. Hes the Akuma/Seth of smash brothers. So good if played perfectly but never can be because human beings **** up.

I think my list goes

Fox
Marth
Sheik
Falco
Jigs
Peach
Falcon


Why is Fox top?

He runs around with his bust speed, combos/dmg builders that work on every character, amazing recovery, good on every stage in the game, (stages are BANNED because of HIM) kills as low as 5% with shine, great vertical and horizontal options, great camping/zoning/defensive game and wonderful options out of tech rolls to get relieved of pressure. (shine)

Fox's game Vs fast fallers: u throw to shine to tech chase or u throw to usmash/utilt to ****
VS floaties: u throw to uair or u throw to bair and go for shines vs both types.

thats hard. Thats why Marth and shiek are with him....because their **** is stupid easy.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Everyone is riding jigglypuffs **** because of hbox and mango doing great. Even MaNg0 himself will tell you she is not top tier.

This is at least the 2nd time this argument has been used and i'm going to address it now. Whatever mango posted on the boards is a troll. As for hungrybox.... if we're to believe that other list was his personal opinion, then he does believe puff is at least top 3.

Whats the difference? One player is superbanned for trolling, the other is at the head of the MBR.

You can make a dozen mistakes and still win and just do stupid things.

I thought you were talking about puff, until i read the line before it.

He thinks ****ing Sheik and Marth all still top tier and there is a definite argument for this

How on point do marth and shiek have to be? Not really. You just walk around and hit buttons and tilts and you win if you're smar.

I would like you to walk into a tournament setting and win with sheik and marth by just walking around, hitting buttons and tilting.

What do you have to do with Falco and Fox consistently?

-combos
-gimps pressure
-great defensive game
-need to be much more consistent

Without discussing the inaccuracies of this list, what does it matter if you have to be consistent in order to play to the character's best? We aren't talking about the best character for my 4 y/o niece to pick up and play.

and jigglypuff?

-you die at like 90% on all stages minus dreamland and brinstar
-you have to work your *** off to get in on a good fox/marth and be REALLY patient
-You're AVERAGE on all stages.

@point 1: Not really, because there aren't many ways to set up a kill on puff so even fox has to kill with nair or bair most of the time.

Also, fyi brinstar's ceiling is pretty close to battle field's height. you would have been better off using kongo jungle.

@point 2: you're doing it wrong. space, zone, use stage control. don't try to "get in" on them. and yes, patience is required for EVERY CHARACTER at the top level.

@point 3: Fox must be average on all stages too, right?

The fact is, although it sounds drawn out and boring Marth and Sheik can make dozens of mistakes and not give a crap because all they have to do is get a grab, do stupid stuff, and then they get into a quick and easy edge guard position.

The fact is, although it sounds drawn out and boring Jigglypuff can make dozens of mistakes and not give a crap because all they have to do is get a grab, do stupid stuff, and then they get into a quick and easy edge guard position.

See what I did thar?

Not to mention, Marth arguably has one of the best recoveries in the game amongst top tiers (have you seen G Money recover?) and Sheiks isn't so bad for a top tier. It's definitely not ****...but it isn't great. It's par.

Please refer to the Recovery Tier List for more info on this.

Puff has the best recovery in the game, hands down. Marth and sheik both have easily abused mechanics that allow them to be edge guarded, unlike jigglypuff.

 

[Masmasher@]

then whay reps metagame?

Some charcters are so bad or never used that their metagame is extremely low and really we don't know anything about them really.I mean sheik just detroys bottom tiers and junk but sheik suffers from top tier match-ups who also counter bottom tiers just not as ungodly hard but bottom tiers still don't have much of a chance. match-ups are a terrible was to figure out who's the best in the game.

This tread is a waste of time these people don't even understand what metagame is.

anyways its been almost a decade since the game came out. Those characters dont have some underdeveloped secret **** they just suck ***.

this thread is pointless cause people think tiers change. the only **** that changed is peoples DI getting better. tournaments should only determine tiers in the first year of play.
metagame only converges on tiers based on which character has the better capablities/tools programmed into them. AKA who fits into the game better. fox does more then anybody else.
after that its all smarts and what not. the smart *****s win and the petty lose.
all you can do is play catchup.



ill say it like this...
mega man will never be in the same realm as magneto lmao

 

[KirbyKaze]

Everyone is riding jigglypuffs **** because of hbox and mango doing great. Even MaNg0 himself will tell you she is not top tier.

Mango also says Hungrybox is like 8th in the world. Objectively, that is a difficult position to back up because Hungrybox gets top 2 or wins tournaments, above everyone he says is better than Hungrybox. But it's Mango so it must be correct.

M2K himself will tell you Jiggs is the best character.

See how dumb these arguments sound?

He thinks ****ing Sheik and Marth all still top tier and there is a definite argument for this:

This is true.

You can make a dozen mistakes and still win and just do stupid things.

Not vs good people. Unless the other good people are messing up their punishment.

How on point do marth and shiek have to be? Not really. You just walk around and hit buttons and tilts and you win if you're smar.

This isn't an argument.

How on point does Puff have to be? Not really. You just float around and hit back air and win if you're smart.

That's just a generalization of gameplay and a huge oversimplification. I assure you, if you try that vs anyone good you will probably get *****. This is not 2005. Tilts are punishable. "Hit buttons" is not a strategy. Walk around is a gross understatement of their movement games.

If we're still using that awful appeal to authority crap that doesn't work we can go with Mango's thing about, "Oh everyone's like 'spacies, spacies, I gotta warm up my spacies.' But Marth needs a warm up. Your movement has to be mad pretty, your spacing has to be really good..." I probably butchered the quote but it's in the APEX interview if you want to watch it.

What do you have to do with Falco and Fox consistently?

-combos
-gimps pressure
-great defensive game
-need to be much more consistent

Is the implication that these are things Marth and Sheik do not have to do?

and jigglypuff?

-you die at like 90% on all stages minus dreamland and brinstar
-you have to work your *** off to get in on a good fox/marth and be REALLY patient
-You're AVERAGE on all stages.

The first one depends on what matchup you're in. Anyway, most characters can potentially die at 0 from death combos, or die in two hits. Puff's resistance to combos, lethal edgeguards, and gimps neutralizes this danger significantly. Which people seem to forget in this sort of thing. If you have a character that lives to 150% routinely but takes 40-100% every time he's hit, and compare that to a character who lives to 100% routinely but takes 7-20% every time he's hit, the one that lives to 100% overall has better survivability because he's going to be able to take more total hits.

The second is correct.

The third I think is incorrect. Puff seems very good on Brinstar.

The fact is, although it sounds drawn out and boring Marth and Sheik can make dozens of mistakes and not give a crap because all they have to do is get a grab, do stupid stuff, and then they get into a quick and easy edge guard position. Not to mention, Marth arguably has one of the best recoveries in the game amongst top tiers (have you seen G Money recover?) and Sheiks isn't so bad for a top tier. It's definitely not ****...but it isn't great. It's par.

Marth's recovery is easily exploited and bad.

Sheik's recovery is easily exploited and bad.

The matchups where Sheik auto-deaths by "stupid stuff" are low tiers (who don't matter), Ganon, another Sheik, and FFers. I assure you, if you're making "dozens of mistakes" and get one grab, you probably already lost the match somewhere in the low 20s. Sheik can be punished by characters relatively hard if they make a read or if they simply combo well. She can also be chain grabbed by a bunch and she's one of the easiest to Rest.

Your remark is a terrible exaggeration.

I really used to think that Falco was second best but i've had a change of opinion lately. Falco has to work sooooo hard to be good that it's not even funny. He has the best stage control in the game overall but he can't make mistakes. Hes the Akuma/Seth of smash brothers. So good if played perfectly but never can be because human beings **** up.

I won't address this because it's not entirely wrong.

I think my list goes

Fox
Marth
Sheik
Falco
Jigs
Peach
Falcon

Why is Fox top?

He runs around with his bust speed, combos/dmg builders that work on every character, amazing recovery, good on every stage in the game, (stages are BANNED because of HIM) kills as low as 5% with shine, great vertical and horizontal options, great camping/zoning/defensive game and wonderful options out of tech rolls to get relieved of pressure. (shine)

Fox's game Vs fast fallers: u throw to shine to tech chase or u throw to usmash/utilt to ****
VS floaties: u throw to uair or u throw to bair and go for shines vs both types.

thats hard. Thats why Marth and shiek are with him....because their **** is stupid easy.

See, the troublesome part of putting Fox above Falco by so many places is that all the same arguments about perfection and whatever also apply to Fox. They really do get death combo'd about as hard as one another.

You can also get into arguments about how Falco's combos are more consistent at high level, and you can also make a very easy argument for Fox being far more affected by the new CC-heavy defensive game that so many characters are employing. I would also say Falco is generally better vs shields because of his lasers (he can make people put them up), slower jump, and Shine (it launches).

Falco's laser is also much more useful than dash dancing + non-stunning lasers against a bunch of characters, especially when it comes to approaching and winning camping wars. Fox can get boxed in far more easily than Falco, IMO, because Fox's game is very responsive. If a situation arises where he can't approach because the opponent has compensated for his movement, he has to retreat or evade. Falco is good at preventing that sort of thing because lasers inhibit movement into a few limited options, so there's less for him to worry about.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

This aint MvC or SF or any of those 2D fighters. Gameplay constantly changes. I think the earliest recorded match is this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQGbwERf4eA

That was grand finals of the largest tournament in 2003. Height of the metagame at the time.

Compare it to one of the largest tournaments 3 years later: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHPudz8LTE0

Very different. Same mentality, but many more techniques and more refined strategies.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

you kill puff at 200% as marth on FoDs I've died at like 221% on that stage vs sov. and I wasn't even camping.

at masmasher@ you know nothing about logic do you? If you flip a coin a 100 times and it lands on heads each timeand is a normal coin is more likly to land on another side? Just because it's been heads a bunch? NO it's still a 50-50 chance. new stuff is always being discovered not every day but new stuff still pops up new ways to wobble, like 20 other new things since brawl came out. It took like 8 years to discover how to play as master hand. Just because time has pasted does not mean everything has been discovered. Or is even used and expolded to see HOW useful it really is.

When we discovered SHFFL doesn't mean we even knew all it's uses WTF? not to long ago I figured out how to use it as bait to make people lose when they try to punish a nair with a tilt.

you're simply closed minded to new happening is you asked 4 years a ago if puff could **** everyone and counter marth at high levels you'd say they're crazy but lookie here. You have no understanding of smash's history it's an uber old game but metagame never stops adapting.


hey KK and other decent point people debating I think this is a waste of time and there should be a kiddie verison of the tier list debates. Or a guide to understand before coming in here to debate this s***. I don't know I may make a megalo post sometime about this s*** about metagame.

 

[Brightside6382]

mega man will never be in the same realm as magneto lmao

Thats actually pretty funny cause Megaman gives Magneto sooooooo much trouble. Mash on f.p and kick soccer balls all day.

This aint MvC or SF or any of those 2D fighters. Gameplay constantly changes. I think the earliest recorded match is this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQGbwERf4eA

That was grand finals of the largest tournament in 2003. Height of the metagame at the time.

Compare it to one of the largest tournaments 3 years later: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHPudz8LTE0

Very different. Same mentality, but many more techniques and more refined strategies.

Yeah because in those other 2-D fighters strategies and the metagame don't evolve also as the game grows older. I can find old *** footage of MvC2 or 3rd strike also and make the same comparison. I actually have no idea what you guys are talking about it's just that little snippet bothered me.

 

[Dark Hart]

Falco > Fox > Sheik > Marth > Puff > Peach > Falco is the RPS of Melee

 

[Masmasher@]

you kill puff at 200% as marth on FoDs I've died at like 221% on that stage vs sov. and I wasn't even camping.

at masmasher@ you know nothing about logic do you? If you flip a coin a 100 times and it lands on heads each timeand is a normal coin is more likly to land on another side? Just because it's been heads a bunch? NO it's still a 50-50 chance. new stuff is always being discovered not every day but new stuff still pops up new ways to wobble, like 20 other new things since brawl came out. It took like 8 years to discover how to play as master hand. Just because time has pasted does not mean everything has been discovered. Or is even used and expolded to see HOW useful it really is.

When we discovered SHFFL doesn't mean we even knew all it's uses WTF? not to long ago I figured out how to use it as bait to make people lose when they try to punish a nair with a tilt.

you're simply closed minded to new happening is you asked 4 years a ago if puff could **** everyone and counter marth at high levels you'd say they're crazy but lookie here. You have no understanding of smash's history it's an uber old game but metagame never stops adapting.


hey KK and other decent point people debating I think this is a waste of time and there should be a kiddie verison of the tier list debates. Or a guide to understand before coming in here to debate this s***. I don't know I may make a megalo post sometime about this s*** about metagame.

what i wanna know is
how is playing as master hand relevant..
how is flipping a coin a good analogy for finding something new
that shffel example is terrible too. thats not a new technique. thats you using your brain to try a different manever with the same move. aka you using your brain.

this is why people shake their heads when talking about tiers with people cause you act like your game is so brand new. im supposing that noone read the reast of my post and decided to scrutinize one piece.


tiers arent about who plays smarter dammit its not hard to understand
im not close minded but it least i can understand the difference in the metagame (people playing smarter) and not mistake for a tier list change.

 

[Doc King]

what i wanna know is
how is playing as master hand relevant..
how is flipping a coin a good analogy for finding something new
that shffel example is terrible too. thats not a new technique. thats you using your brain to try a different manever with the same move. aka you using your brain.

this is why people shake their heads when talking about tiers with people cause you act like your game is so brand new. im supposing that noone read the reast of my post and decided to scrutinize one piece.


tiers arent about who plays smarter dammit its not hard to understand
im not close minded but it least i can understand the difference in the metagame (people playing smarter) and not mistake for a tier list change.

The only thing we should really change from sept list and this list is get rid of some of the ties and dont put a negligible tier in it. Basically move everybody into higher Tiers.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

MasMasher...
You realise that the reason tiers change as people get smarter is because people getting smarter shows us new things about the characters.

We can't instantly work out the best character straight after the game is released.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

MasMasher...
You realise that the reason tiers change as people get smarter is because people getting smarter shows us new things about the characters.

We can't instantly work out the best character straight after the game is released.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

what i wanna know is
how is playing as master hand relevant..
how is flipping a coin a good analogy for finding something new
that shffel example is terrible too. thats not a new technique. thats you using your brain to try a different manever with the same move. aka you using your brain.

this is why people shake their heads when talking about tiers with people cause you act like your game is so brand new. im supposing that noone read the reast of my post and decided to scrutinize one piece.


tiers arent about who plays smarter dammit its not hard to understand
im not close minded but it least i can understand the difference in the metagame (people playing smarter) and not mistake for a tier list change.

before master hand was discovered I heard people say oh this game is old and there are no new things being discovered, it doesn't right away whatever we haven't tested EVERY SINGLE THING ABOUT THIS GAME. if so please show me the list of how much hit shun every move has on people and sheilds and what di will cause them to be able to follow up.

No just because it's heads doesn't mean it'll be heads or tails. THe past can't predict everything in the future. You're beyond help if you disargee to that which is what you're argueing with me about. metagame ALWAYS moves forward.

serioulsy try to DISPROOF my points insert of posting you don't make sense everyone but me is dumb. enlighen me as into why i'm ill taught. because I geuss after so long for anything there's nothing leave to find somehow we can know when we haven't fully checked every crack.

 

[t3h Icy]

It's just coincidence that the top two players use Jigglypuff. If you look at the rest of the bracket, the only other good Jigglypuff in the world is Darc.

Jigglypuff is third at best.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No just because it's heads doesn't mean it'll be heads or tails. THe past can't predict everything in the future. You're beyond help if you disargee to that which is what you're argueing with me about. metagame ALWAYS moves forward.

The rest of your post was fine... but that is ridiculous.

That may apply for something infinite like chance, but for something finite, like Smash Bros, the more things you discover, the less things there will be left to discover, thus different discovery chances.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I argee my bad. but we still haven't tested everything there is to test.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

we still haven't tested everything there is to test.

This is true.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The Melee tier list isn't a reflection of the best character it's meant to represent the best character for winning tournaments based on results, as it has been since the dawn of time.

 

[Youngling]

Falcon's recovery isn't bad, he can falcon kick to get his 2nd jump back and he has a wall jump and stuff like that. Peach's move are very slow and predictable and she has poor matchups against Marf, Sheik, Falco, and Y. Link. It's hard for her to KO since she has to grab someone with her poor range grab and throw them to KO pretty good.

Falcon has options like Dair>Knee (good finisher), Nair>Upair>Knee, and stuff like that. Also he has the fastest running speed while being strong and powerful. Falcon is crazy when he's on the field!

Just shut the **** up. Please.

 

[Doc King]

Just shut the **** up. Please.

Ever considered following rule #1.

Back to the subject, there will be many more things to discover in Melee, even after a decade of gameplay. Here are what I think are the characters that can change the most.

Link
G&W
Roy
ICS
Y. Link
Ness
Kirby
Falco

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

you are predicting what we don't know?

besides it's ice climbers, falco and pichu who have the most potienal for them : P

 

[Doc King]

Hey ICG, I've actually changed my mind about Pichu and Kirby. I think that Kirby is better than Pichu because Kirby is unique and somewhat stylish while Pichu is kind of a waste because he's very similar to Pika but with damaging attacks.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I can out troll you don't play this game unless you got the balls to win ok? And there's a decent chance this thread will in fact die.

In fact kirby isn't unique really in fact he's got crapy parts from many charcters other than up-tilt and suck. but suck is very limited unless you can get a great power or they're reatrded.

As for pichu's self-damaging attacks that doesn't matter if I fair grab to chain throw to death taking 4% vs stock was worth the trade and as pichu if you use any of his moves you basically plan to land it due to range. also I'd argue that roy's moves do more damage to him them pichu's does to himself.

I win prove me wrong. This is a losing battle because i'll double anything and everything you got.

 

[Doc King]

Well, Pichu is by far the lightest character in the game, the poorest range in the game, Self damaging attacks (a lot of his moves are like that), a clone of Pikachu which makes him kind of useless, and just having crappy and useless moves in general.

Don't get so mad at me, I'm just trying to help with the new MBR tier list.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Well, Pichu is by far the lightest character in the game FACT: pichu is also the hardest to hit in the game, amazing recovery, and isn't as easy to death combo as a FFer is truth he takes hits better than fox by every thinkable way


the poorest range in the gameFlase: pichu has in fact twice the grab range, throw usefullness, and better set-up of pikachu his grab range is close to bowser's and his backwards grab range lets you sheild sheild falco's who dair the back of your sheild. Again i've proved you don't know s*** about what you're talking about.

Self damaging attacks (a lot of his moves are like that) I proved how it doesn't matter pichu will land most of his attacks and you only need to use nair anyways only noobs think about this

a clone of Pikachu which makes him kind of uselessPikachu and pichu play pretty differnt overall and pichu is faster, stronger, better grab game, and even harder to hit thanks to size, duck, shield improvements, and speed. also the player is normally more limited than the charcter
, and just having crappy and useless moves in generalFlase name one useless move you don't play as pichu all of his moves are decent this isn't like kirby with his ******** nair or something

Don't get so mad at me,I it not my falut if you have little self control when I am mirrorly pointing out facts and defeining my veiws I'm just trying to help with the new MBR tier list. So am I

I win again maybe you should talk about kirby and why he is somehow better

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falco > Fox > Sheik > Marth > Puff > Peach > Falco is the RPS of Melee

this is so wrong

 

[Doc King]

Well Kirby's upair is pretty strong and useful for combos, his up tilt move can be a combo starter, his Bair is also a good move. Kirby can do special things like Wall of pain, Kirby cide, can copy abilities and use them for different strategies (like using Falco's lazers or using Doc's pills).

You can't just claim victory right away, you have to get other ppl to agree.

 

[Youngling]

Doc King is such a ****ing scrub.

 

[CloneHat]

How many threads have become Kirby vs. Pichu?

Too many. Make a separate thread for it.

 

[Doc King]

Does any1 think that the ICS should be higher since they have wobbling and they're 2 characters in one so you can very special things with them.

 

[N64]

ICs are pretty good as long as both are alive. Killing nana quickly is fairly easy for most chars unfortunately.

 

[Doc King]

Yeah that's the only problem, but maybe they're better than Peach and Falcon and at the very most, PUFF!

The ICS also have a lot of Power and pretty good speed to do good in tourney.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If it werent for that pesky Peach character....

 

[Kason Birdman]

I think that Kirby is good and DK is ****ing bad.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Well Kirby's upair is pretty strong and useful for combos, his up tilt move can be a combo starter, his Bair is also a good move. Kirby can do special things like Wall of pain, Kirby cide, can copy abilities and use them for different strategies (like using Falco's lazers or using Doc's pills).

You can't just claim victory right away, you have to get other ppl to agree.

kirby's bair wall is fail he has no di fox can do it better due to movement speed and kirby can't autocancel only works when people are dumb, upair is like the hardest move to set-up and kirbcide only works on ******** people.

bair is decent but pichu's nair is better than kirby, copy ablity's isn't any good other than falco really. but falco FF dair shine bair ***** that out of kirby.

Really pichu's movement, nair jolt mix-up is better and safer than kirby. kirby's movement is next to useless.

Really pretty tell me what kirby has that's safer than fox's nair?

 

[Masmasher@]

MasMasher...
You realise that the reason tiers change as people get smarter is because people getting smarter shows us new things about the characters.

We can't instantly work out the best character straight after the game is released.

its been NINE YEARS
insane crazy guy is on some different ****
a base tier list is which characters attirbutes are shown to fit into the game the best so they can excel above the rest. simple statistics and data can show who is the best character (after discovering the universal options), match play into about a year roughly can show you whos going to excel and whos gonna get left.
making up bull like "oh well i can dashdance then wavedash and then grab" isnt increasing a charaters tier position. ICGs analogies are bad and he should feel bad. universal strafes dont help causes.

but then i seen kirby kazes post and forgot that yall base the tier list on some other ****.
in reality that should be a character ranking list cause what the thread is conflicting on is wins.

 

[Bamesy]

I'm giving my thoughts for the only time, first and last.

What is the tier list right now?
I can't even remember.
**** it lol. I don't know what it has been either, but I've had the same list in mind for a couple years at LEAST.
I remember a couple things on the new one that were weird.
1. There is no way Luigi, Pika and Mario are worse than Link and DK. (I'd argue others too but it's still possible either way)
2. Shiek is the best. (Garaunteed)
3. Just cause people can't fight Jiggs doesn't mean they couldn't. (This applies to others too everything else too)
4. Blind to growth much? (LOL <3)


DK has nothing, Link has very little.
If Luigi had a modern Ka, he'd be high tier. Pika got a mordern Ka in Axe, tada! Mario got Mango. Tada!
Just because you never see them doesn't mean they suck. Wake up, Yoshi is considered good in Japan for a reason.

I guess to make this easy (skipping the reason why all of this would make sense if you understood the way I think) I'll devide this in charts. lol
(life in general could be set out in a very similar format too, it's actually something I've shown to others and they've found it benefitial in their everyday lives, but that's another story, if you can figure this out, give it a try in applying it for a while maybe lol, it's really simple, just complicate this up a bit)

1. Effects (on the self/on others [could be 2 lists])
What people are doing and how things happen
*list of scenerios

2. Conclusions
What happens when things happen
*results of these scenarios

3. Ideals
What the desired conclusion would be
*what can be attained

4. Methods
How to go about doing so
*what would lead to the desired results

That may take a bit to think about, but I won't go into detail. If you disect what each of those really mean and TRANSLATE IT INTO SMASH TERMS, you'll unserstand how incredibly simple it all really is.

Firstly, Mango.
I know that a lot of people understand this to some degree, some have probably looked into it, but it's something that's difficult to put to words/difficult to actually discuss/come to a conclusion on.

In an erra where technical ability became a neccessity, rather than a bonus or minor basic advantage, speed and pressure started to thrive. A world where mobility and keeping tempo was absolutely crucial to winning.

As overly simple as it sounds, slowing the pace down would really be devastating. If you analyse this, you would eventually come to the conclusion that taking away the movement of these characters would be the most beneficial way of doing so. If you analyse this, you would eventually come to the conclusion that something that can hold a barrier will take it away well.

Keep analysing and with practicality, it was blatantly OBVIOUS that a 'floaty' in smash-vision would be the next probable excellerating progression. Jiggs through Mango, Peach through Armada, etc.

So came the mindset of shutting down rather than overpowering.

As Mango opened the doors to more that others found, things could begin progressing in the next course. Towards the fact that no matter how perfect someone can be at this game in a frame by frame world, the game itself is too (flukily) flexible to be ended by anything BUT the mind side of the game.

Through this, no matter how good a character may be at shutting something down or overpowering, the better player will eventually win. Systematic Play (which is too often not given credit for terms like habbit and style), along with practice, precision, all of that, comes through experience. A 'systematic play' will develop among everyone, (laser and grab spamming Falcos have a style, a 'system' that leads to them playing the way they do, a common thing at a top level is just that) yet the less of a 'system' a player has, the quicker they imrpove. Hence those who do get a 'system' down and use it well will rarely get over their next major hurdle until they make a dramatic personal change (in style, one could say in smash relevance)

There is a reason some newer players will often excell quickly and some veterans will seize to excell. It's a mindset that comes through experience and lack of experience.

(Wsdom and Eperience are not equals, they are the source and product of one another and can't be compared. Two people can have the same experience, one can shrug it off and for the other it can be lifechanging. At that, there is more than anyone could ever know from every moment. Donnot compare them, that's an easy way to understand this)

(Improving means Changing. If you don't change anything in the situation to get closer to the desired result, then nothing in the situation will improve. [Conclusions will NEVER match Methods on that 'chart' above, hence there is always room to grow and should ALWAYS change, if they are NOT changing, they are not improving{excelling}])

I'm too lazy to go into more detail on anything...this is so ****ing spontaneous LMAO
I was just browing and started typing... SHIIIIIIIIIIT
K I'll finish this...
But hopefully you get an idea on where I'm coming from, sort of. o.O

*If you want to know more of why I see it this way, just let me know. What I said won't make sense of everything, but it's the right direction.

*Nothing I have said is refutable in any way, but if you desire to or can, be a devils advocate so I can explain clearer or something. It helps me too.


These are the viable characters for tournament play.
ANY of them can WIN a tournament.

Fox, Shiek, Falco, Marth, Jiggs, Peach, Falcon, Luigi, Pika, Mario, Doc, Samus

ICs, Yoshi and Ganon just cut it short due to minor linearness and a few small and unique handicaps.

Order would be similar to this.
1. Sheik
2. The rest tied...

LMAO
I'll give a list when I think about it again IF someone requests... haven't put ANY thought into it in months so can't right now.
Of the top of my memory, it's NOTHING like anyone else would think... I would predict anyway... but maybe I'm not alone. <_<

That's the way I see it, or what I post later if I do post, is the way I see it.
The way I see, that's NOT the way I see, but simply...
*The way it is, the way it was and the way it always will be.