Opinions For The New Tier List

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falcon has a beastly recovery

Spoiler

in teams

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Peach doesn't have as many near impossible match-ups as falcon sheik is worse than peach can understand.

 

[Kason Birdman]

most of his damage is from flinging himself across the screen in a wild guess.

This is how Kason Birdman uses Falcon.

 

[CloneHat]

This is how Kason Birdman uses Falcon.

Keep rolling your Falcon dice and you'll be pro in no time

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falcon could very easily be a better character than Peach.

If he is it has to do with how his high speed dash game and decent range allow him a lot of zoning / baiting power, and make it difficult for the opponent to maintain good spacing. This, coupled with his combo game and tech chase ability, can be a very volatile mix. He only needs a read or two in a combo to kill someone. And sometimes a slight misstep in the opponent's DI will negate the need for a read and suffice all the same.

Peach, of course, rebuttals with D-smash. And all things considered it's a very good argument.

 

[Dart!]

I'm not going to answer that you don't know enough to talk about fox vs falco. also that would make in falco's favor.

marth gets wrecked from projectiles and sheilds. I don't know all that range goes to waste when he can't land anything.

You obviously don't know enough about marth vs space animals to say anything.

It's like you've written off what m2k can do with marth vs any space animal that isn't mango.

 

[JPOBS]

lmfao at Dart's sig.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I still do not understand why people think Jigs is #1 or even #2.

Are you guys for real?

Jigglypuff is an awesome character but when you have numerous jigs players saying that she is not top tier... (Including MaNg0) that should be a clear sign. Just because two kids are good with her does not mean she warrants being an awesome character.

If hungrybox and mango were good with Doctor Mario and won all the tournaments would he be top tier? No. So why does Jigglypuff deserve top tier? Armada ***** with Peach...why isnt she top tier? You guys need to remember that hbox, mango, armada, amsash etc are almost ABOVE the rest of the meta game and are just naturally stupid smart. Honestly, I still strongly think Marth beats Jigs. Why? Because 90% of jigglypuffs mains need to learn this match up and know how to get in and marth mains don't. its easy mode. All Marth has to do is get a lead and camp and jigglypuff cannot get in. Sure IF jigglypuff can get in she can do her dmg but a good Marth will not let he rin. It's like the Zangief VS SEth MU in SF4. SEth takes loads of dmg and Znagief can do it....but is a good Seth going to let Gief in? LOL. No.

Marth is still top three without a doubt. Know why? All he has to do is grab you with his bust grab range like once or twice and hit you and tech chase you with his amazing range and disjointed hit box and he wins. Get a lead? camp the ledge and throw off your fast fallers and do stuff. It's simple and it leaves so much room for error while fox, Falco, and Sheik cannot make as many mistakes. Don't sit there and tell me "high level players dont make mistakes" because guess what? Everyone makes mistakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml9QjEVUp5Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qna80MbcAAc

http://www.youtube.com/user/yourstillwithme?feature=mhum#p/f/33/O4lgzjUU6Yk


The tier list is NOT a popularity chart.

The tier list isn't a popularity chart, you are right. But what makes you think that Puff is only up there because Mango and HBox do well with her? Do you really think the MBR went "Hurr durr, there are two good Puff players so she is the best character in the game hurr durr"?

She is actually an amazing recovery. Her edge-guarding is so amazing she can juggle enemies off-stage with it, she has a 1-hit kill move that almost everything she has combos into, her recovery is so amazing that some would consider it infinite, she has amazing range on her aerials, she ranks consistently well in tournaments AND she has decent match-ups.

Puff is just good. Accept it.

 

[JPOBS]

Do you really think the MBR went "Hurr durr, there are two good Puff players so she is the best character in the game hurr durr"?

actually, they did.

the newest tierlsit is the opninion of like, 2 people, the actual "mbr" didnt even have a vote, notable discussion, or anything.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

actually, they did.

the newest tierlsit is the opninion of like, 2 people, the actual "mbr" didnt even have a vote, notable discussion, or anything.

My point still stands though. She might not be quite up on Fox's level, but she is still AMAZING.

 

[Brookman]

Jiggs is bad, in truth. Somewhere around peach/falcon at best. maybe above those two.


It's probably something like

fox/falco
sheik
marth
puff
peach
falcon

nothing else really matters, I mean, falcon is hardly relevant.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree with that list.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Puff's bair spacing game is really ********. I feel like any time I play her and get hit is just like "oh i didn't drift far enough away after that last bair" or "i should have shielded and then baired instead of bair".

Not to mention she gets out of combos like nobody's business. I think falcon has the only reliable kill combo, but that comes from a grab he should never get. Fox's Uthrow uair is nearly impossible to land without SDI, and impossible to land if the puff can SDI. No shine combos that kill.

For a lot of characters that can't get comboed, they can be edge guarded so a strategy is to just hit them with anything and force them off the stage then exploit their recovery. No such luck if you play against a puff.

Combos... Uhh puff can combo you if you DI in. If you DI out she will just keep spacing you and you'll get psuedo comboed. Not to mention the rest combos which make it quite hard to keep up with her in stocks if she lands one when she isn't in kill percents.

Overall, I think puff does really well at the low level and really well at the top level and theres a big gap between where people don't play her well enough and underrate her.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oh yeah, I forgot that she can't be combo'd. Add that to my previous list xD

 

[Doc King]

Let's expand these descriptions.

He has a kick move with no priority that can be stuffed by projectiles or moves very easily and leaves him extremely vulnerable. It can't be used close to the stage, and if he's not above a certain height threshold he dies outright or is forced to recover low, where it is extremely easy to systematically hit him. Many characters have untechable answers for his low recovery.

He has a wall jump that doesn't really matter most of the time because in order to use that walljump he has to be hugging the level or double jump into it, which can be countered with the same things you'd do vs a normal low Falcon recovery.

As a bonus, his air-dodge is short distance and he has tons of landing lag from his Up+B if he cannot edgecancel it.


Whether you agree with Falco's recovery being good or not is irrelevant for the discussion of Peach vs Falcon. But I'll address this anyway. You're saying that Falco's Side B can be predicted? If you have to "predict" their selection to beat it, I tend to think that gives the recovering player a better chance than if their recovery can just be systematically reacted to. Falcon's recovery is slow. If you take appropriate measures, you can cover pretty much everything he does (with most characters).

That's the problem with Falcon's recovery. You don't have to "predict" anything. You just wait and see what he does, and hit him. Some exceptions apply, but on the whole there's not much guesswork needed.

I'm actually starting to agree that Falcon's recovery is not that great. But I think that Peach is resistant by spikes when recovering.

The one thing I must ask is why Samus is always in middle tier and not high tier. She has one of the best recoveries in the game, the 3rd heaviest character in the game, good projectiles and options, Super wave dash, extended grapple, etc.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm actually starting to agree that Falcon's recovery is not that great. But I think that Peach is resistant by spikes when recovering.

The one thing I must ask is why Samus is always in middle tier and not high tier. She has one of the best recoveries in the game, the 3rd heaviest character in the game, good projectiles and options, Super wave dash, extended grapple, etc.

Falcon's recovery is TERRIBLE. Predictable as all hell. Peach doesn't get spiked out of recovery any more often than other characters.

Extended Grapple and Super Wave Dash aren't even worth mentioning.

She just doesn't have enough to get her up there. It's not that she is bad, just that she... isn't good...

 

[Doc King]

Falcon's recovery aint that terrible, it can cover pretty good distance but is resistant against edge guarding. I'll say like in Decent Tier or something. Samus is pretty good, she has a lot of options and special statuses to her.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Falcon's recovery aint that terrible, it can cover pretty good distance but is resistant against edge guarding. I'll say like in Decent Tier or something. Samus is pretty good, she has a lot of options and special statuses to her.

You're right, terrible was an over-statement, but it is by no stretch good.

Special statuses? What does that mean?

Like I said, Samus might be good, but all the other characters are just better.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falcon's recovery is just as if not more vulnerable to spikes than Peach's is. And because of his nature as a FFer he's more likely to die from it than she is (IMO).

Recoveries that go far but get completely ruined by brainless, easy edgeguarding are bad recoveries. It is not very common for a character to be hit by a kill move onstage and then not be able to make it back to the level (assuming the opponent chooses not to edgeguard them). Distance is not a huge issue for most good characters. Having a mechanism that protects you (such as speed, ability to produce hitboxes to defend oneself, lack of landing lag so you can produce actions immediately, multiple quality options that force the opponent guess, quality options after teching, etc.) are far more useful traits than just distance.

Falcon misses out on most of those.

Samus's SWD is usually useless at high level play. Same with extended grapple.

Samus is not bad but she is not high tier. For these sorts of things I tend to just go with "her matchups aren't as good as the characters above her" and leave it at that. If you want to get into nonsense like "she's too limited" you can do that too.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Doc King, I really have to ask if you've ever played this game before

Samus isn't High tier because most characters would LOVE for her to jump into the air, which limits her to mostly ground game with well thought air attacks. Unlike other characters who can make use of SHFFLs for speed, samus has to rely on tilts and jabs for a good portion of her game. It can work if the samus player is patient enough, yadayada. Also missiles are overrated garbage that lose to every hitbox and are easily avoided.

Falcon's recovery might seem good, as in falcon can drift back and forth and lots of people (even good players) mess up and don't cover it correctly. The fact of the matter is, every character can stand next to edge and not move until falcon has committed to the stage then walk over to him and punish him in the best way possible for that character (CG to death, smash attack off stage [and repeat], wobble, shine combo, jab if its grand finals)


edit- ohiKK

 

[Nygma]

I could tell he wasn't experienced when he said bowser is better than yoshi because he has more "power."


(Sigh)

 

[Doc King]

Doc King, I really have to ask if you've ever played this game before

Samus isn't High tier because most characters would LOVE for her to jump into the air, which limits her to mostly ground game with well thought air attacks. Unlike other characters who can make use of SHFFLs for speed, samus has to rely on tilts and jabs for a good portion of her game. It can work if the samus player is patient enough, yadayada. Also missiles are overrated garbage that lose to every hitbox and are easily avoided.

Falcon's recovery might seem good, as in falcon can drift back and forth and lots of people (even good players) mess up and don't cover it correctly. The fact of the matter is, every character can stand next to edge and not move until falcon has committed to the stage then walk over to him and punish him in the best way possible for that character (CG to death, smash attack off stage [and repeat], wobble, shine combo, jab if its grand finals)


edit- ohiKK

I have played this game before, but only from 2008-2010 so I might be kind of confused with the Tier list, Matchups, etc.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

If you don't think you solidly know don't post opions about it ask questions

 

[Doc King]

I dk if this can get above Peach but I think they can help with his metagame.

You can falcon kick on front of the rainbow cruise ship while its sinking and use it to go right underneath the platform. (Sadly Ganon can't do this)

You can use the edges to do a tap run so you don't have to do the slow run to the other side run. This works for all characters but is more useful for fast runners like Fox, Marf, and C. Falcon.

 

[CloneHat]

Are you talking about Dash Dancing?

That's a fundamental. Please, read the basics before sharing your ideas.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Doc King if you're gonna post things nobody can understand, at least talk about pichu.

 

[Quic]

Are you talking about Dash Dancing?

That's a fundamental. Please, read the basics before sharing your ideas.

What he probably means is that you don't lose momentum while changing direction no matter if you're out of your initial dash animation or not if you do it on the edge.

 

[Doc King]

No not that, using the edge as a way to do another tap run.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i think hes talking about the pivot frame when you run into the edge, but im not sure how that relates to the rest of his post

 

[MooseEatsBear]

So, how about that F/F/S? Jiggs for high tier. Not top. She's overrated. Just because the best players in the world play as Jiggs, doesn't mean she's insanely good, it just means the players are good. 2008 Tier list was too legit. It just needed Mario and Pika higher.

 

[CloneHat]

But you just said not to raise characters up just because they're played by good people.

Or was that sarcasm?

 

[MalwareDie]

I have played this game before, but only from 2008-2010 so I might be kind of confused with the Tier list, Matchups, etc.

You are so lost ...... that you don't even know what year it is.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Hey doc king whata think of kirby XD

 

[Doc King]

I find Kirby a unique character and very poor due to his speed (basically like Ganon in Brawl). You can think that in a way they'll be kind of good but when you play them you end up failing like crazy and end up not liking them.

Anyone think that Sheik, Marf, or Falco should take #1 this time?

 

[billybeegood]

The exact same thing with pika gone up a few spots and falco and sheik switch spots ^-^

 

[Doc King]

And Mewtwo in low tier, Puff and Falcon above Peach, etc.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I just noticed a pattern of kirby srcubs just wordering. if it isn't falco/fox/puff as 1st the list is total BS and I don't anyone will argee. not that I think puff is the best.


Puff can be camped pretty hard at times and like peach is low risk high reward but lacks a falco's laser if you will.

 

[Nygma]

This thread is funny. lol

 

[MooseEatsBear]

But you just said not to raise characters up just because they're played by good people.

Or was that sarcasm?

I misspoke, and edited my post.

 

[Masmasher@]

why are people trying to change the tier list
make a seperate character rankings list
tournament wins shouldnt have any effect on the tier list