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On vertical spacing, bubbles & the second-most-punishing character (European Social)

Anaky

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Yeah Ramin's MK vs Leon wasn't a good example of the matchup, those upb's he got won't happen again to Leon, maybe once a tourney set but not at such a low precent. Silly gimmicks.

And with France's argument, i can agree that he breaks the CP system if Brinstar and RC are legal, but without those stages being legal he definatly doesn't, like Gheb said Delphino and Frigate, you can ban them leaving only the other, which isnt too bad. It's just that on those stages its pretty much impossible for MK not to be at an advantage.
 

Marcbri

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Falco breaks the counterpick system if japes is legal.

DDD breaks the counterpick system if shadow moses is legal.

Just pointing those out.
 

Mr-R

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You people only play on SV anyway

Leon didn't adapt to recovering at all vs ramin :|
Like. My marth isnt that good, but I can recover LMAO
Actually he adapted in his own way, he gave up on recovering from below and tried recovering higher......... needless to say that didn't end well either LOL


Yeah Ramin's MK vs Leon wasn't a good example of the matchup, those upb's he got won't happen again to Leon, maybe once a tourney set but not at such a low precent. Silly gimmicks.
Gimmicks work once, not every single match for 2 sets xD
 

teluoborg

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Yeah Ramin's MK vs Leon wasn't a good example of the matchup, those upb's he got won't happen again to Leon, maybe once a tourney set but not at such a low precent. Silly gimmicks.
Lol you wish.
Leon's stopped trying to counter it, this tech has litterally killed his brawl motivation.
And I've stopped trying to cheer him up so it's gg.

Falco breaks the counterpick system if japes is legal.

DDD breaks the counterpick system if shadow moses is legal.

Just pointing those out.
IC/Pika.
Just pointing those out.

MK has no known counter after 3 years, barely neutral matchups against some characters when they play on their CP, which MK can ban.

There's a chance we won't ban him though since the rest of Europe has decided not to, but it's not like it matters seeing how few fr players will travel outside the country in the future.
 

Marcbri

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Lol you wish.
Leon's stopped trying to counter it, this tech has litterally killed his brawl motivation.
And I've stopped trying to cheer him up so it's gg.


IC/Pika.
Just pointing those out.

MK has no known counter after 3 years, barely neutral matchups against some characters when they play on their CP, which MK can ban.

There's a chance we won't ban him though since the rest of Europe has decided not to, but it's not like it matters seeing how few fr players will travel outside the country in the future.

Pika/climbers don't beat Falco in Japes.


Diddy has no counter either btw.

Shame Leon has lost his motivation, he inspired me to keep trying when I lost it.
 

clowsui

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marcbri you missed how the CP system works

you ban japes

falco gets FD

you go ICs/Pika bam

you ban any stage vs MK

he has at least one that will help him, so who cares what character you go - go the one that does best on that stage
 

Orion*

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It's just that on those stages its pretty much impossible for MK not to be at an advantage.
Yeah but like... if you have tournament viable characters as options it's not bad : |
the only revision i could make to those stages would be that before removing them i would prefer 10 minute timers.

but yeah...

Actually he adapted in his own way, he gave up on recovering from below and tried recovering higher......... needless to say that didn't end well either LOL
Then he was just not playing optimally... marth sucks if you get directly underneath him, and recover high is almost always a bad idea unless you can get high over the stage (snake/wario status)

Gimmicks work until you adapt to them
fixed* >_>
 

Orion*

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maybe. it actually does take some practice to react properly to, if I hadn't encountered it before // knew what to do i would probably get ***** at first also... but it really is a gimmick :|
 

King Funk

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Marcbri

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marcbri you missed how the CP system works

you ban japes

falco gets FD

you go ICs/Pika bam

you ban any stage vs MK

he has at least one that will help him, so who cares what character you go - go the one that does best on that stage
Thats not what I wanted to say. Because imagine im not a falco main, you wouldnt ban japes against me, then I can just pick my pocket falco in japes and get a free win.

The ban system isnt a good reasoning to these stages because of this. Thats the reason japes is banned and brinstar and RC should be banned too. Such advantage to some characters is ********.


btw I'll beat this ramin guy next time we play.
 

Anaky

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Il obviously 3 stock that noob. When i watch Ramin i just feel i can do really good vs him than other people, cuz i just copy whatever he does in new videos.
 

Laem

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Thats not what I wanted to say. Because imagine im not a falco main, you wouldnt ban japes against me, then I can just pick my pocket falco in japes and get a free win.

The ban system isnt a good reasoning to these stages because of this. Thats the reason japes is banned and brinstar and RC should be banned too. Such advantage to some characters is ********.


btw I'll beat this ramin guy next time we play.
(As the dutch BR knows,) I 100% agree with this
Next stop: perma ban FD cuz of IC's :D. Although that appears to be a bit over the top o.o
 

Yikarur

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^I agree with that

in my opinion the only real issue with brinstar is MK
I love playing there without MK, it's a really good stage, really :/
 

xDD-Master

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nah Cadet actually accepts the german ruleset now, afaik.

He pretty much got an "MK > Stages" Philosophy I think, and realized that its probably a bit better this way ^^
 

~ Gheb ~

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I don't think it's him "realizing" stuff more so than him just finally giving up. How about pro-ban doing the same already? Kinda ridiculous how they try to argue Brinstar as a "legitimate" stage in order to give the "he breaks the CP system"-argument some sort of validity - last resort solution much?

:059:
 

xDD-Master

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Yeah, Whatever.

Whats even funnier when some Pro-Ban people say:
"We shouldnt ban stages that are fine, because we should ban as little as possible"
and on they same time, they want to ban CHARACTER(S), which probably are the most important thing in any fighting game.
 

Greward

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olimar counters MK on starters

i'm pretty sure on that since you can see what happens on the Oli-MK games on Japan and even in USA we see olimars beating MK players somehow consistently, also in my own experience is a matchup easy to handle unless you are on halberd or frigate or some horrible **** like that

not a hard counter though
 
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France is leaning towards a MK ban. Not because he's overcentralizing the metagame, but because Leon got obliterated by Ramin he breaks the CP system which is the basis of tournaments.

As far as I can tell that's the only good reason to ban him, and we're still looking for a good reason to not ban him.
All right, a few issues...
1. Leon didn't adapt worth a damn to that upB; That really shouldn't work the way it did. He just didn't play the matchup very well. Plus, this was Leon losing to Ramin... for, like, the 5th time? This is not a rare occurrance.
2. Why should breaking the CP system be banworthy in its own right if Metaknight is neither demonstrably broken nor overcentralizing?
3. How exactly is the CP system the basis of tournaments?
4. Metaknight may very well have counters. Olimar (including on the current stagelist, with Delfino and Orpheon legal), Marth, Falco... Claiming he breaks the counterpick system, especially when he's barely winning tournaments around here (how many people other than Leon did Ramin use MK against? Just curious...), seems a little off.
5. You're still banning a character who is neither demonstrably broken nor demonstrably overcentralizing.

olimar counters MK on starters

i'm pretty sure on that since you can see what happens on the Oli-MK games on Japan and even in USA we see olimars beating MK players somehow consistently, also in my own experience is a matchup easy to handle unless you are on halberd or frigate or some horrible **** like that

not a hard counter though
Case in point, telourborg.
 
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Which is why PS2 is still banned in many countries, because it's such an amazing stage!
Competitive viability has never truly been a deciding factor on making rulesets in the Smash series. Just like Ad Populum arguments have never been a deciding factor in logic.

Clearly getting punished for a jump and helplessly floating in the air (without holding jump) is not a bad position at all on the wind stage!
It's bad. You also put yourself into that position, got forced into it by your opponent, or were in it for the last 7 seconds. You knew what would happen; you didn't play optimally. And while you're up there, it's not like you're completely screwed; you still have options, places where you're harder to chase, etc. A lot of characters can basically stall the entire period out.

It also gives me much joy to slide from one side of the stage to the other and **** up my spacing (NOT THAT THIS MATTERS) because of one little dash input (or just... landing and standing) on the ice stage!
Well, good to know that you're incapable of adapting to changes in gameplay. Yeah, if you play ice just like you would play anywhere, it's not quite as effective (not ineffective, just not quite as good). Guess what: if you play it the way you should on ice, you'll do just fine. Adaptation; lrn2.

I also love how you can't stand still on 2/3th of the stage because of those lovely conveyors on the electropart of the stage (but at least your character loses some weight!).
And I love how there are not only multiple places where you can stand without issue, but that usually in order to hit you, your opponent will have to leave his cushy spot, allowing you to take it. I also love how little this actually matters in practice if you know how to deal with it, which makes me wonder why you're acting like it's such a big deal. Me, I hate how the movement on the Smashville platform makes it possible for characters to chaingrab me. I think that's bull****, and we should ban the stage because of it. Totally ruins gameplay, forcing me to adapt.

Amazing stage really! Why won't we also allow Onett, Hanenbow and Summit now we're at it anyway?

:053:
Unbeatable camping/runaway. That's why. :glare:
 

Greward

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I've got a doubt guys

we strike stages then pick character or we pick characters and then strike stages?
Wanna know if ya guys are using some ruleset about this issue
 

Flayl

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Pick characters then strike stages. It's impossible to choose the most neutral starter without picking the characters first.

did I get trolled
 

Meru.

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Competitive viability has never truly been a deciding factor on making rulesets in the Smash series. Just like Ad Populum arguments have never been a deciding factor in logic.
Yeah the people who made the rulesets are stupid!!

It's bad. You also put yourself into that position, got forced into it by your opponent, or were in it for the last 7 seconds. You knew what would happen; you didn't play optimally. And while you're up there, it's not like you're completely screwed; you still have options, places where you're harder to chase, etc.
OF COURSE, YOU PUT YOURSELF IN THAT POSITION! I totally agree, as if jumping is a main mechanic or anything important or something. It doesn't matter that such a neglegible option gets screwed, you should just adapt!


A lot of characters can basically stall the entire period out.
Omg yes, stalling, an amazing solution to an amazing stage! NOT THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM THOUGH.

Well, good to know that you're incapable of adapting to changes in gameplay. Yeah, if you play ice just like you would play anywhere, it's not quite as effective (not ineffective, just not quite as good). Guess what: if you play it the way you should on ice, you'll do just fine. Adaptation; lrn2.
Yeah this Yaaaaaaaaaaay guy is dumb. Ice doesn't harm your mobility at all if you land or dash or do nothing, it only looks bad but you just have to adapt and everything will turn out fine! This adapting argument is a very valid point, I agree!

And I love how there are not only multiple places where you can stand without issue, but that usually in order to hit you, your opponent will have to leave his cushy spot, allowing you to take it. I also love how little this actually matters in practice if you know how to deal with it, which makes me wonder why you're acting like it's such a big deal. Me, I hate how the movement on the Smashville platform makes it possible for characters to chaingrab me. I think that's bull****, and we should ban the stage because of it. Totally ruins gameplay, forcing me to adapt.
Yeah DUHHH. At least 1/3th is usable! The Smashville argument is soooo true, it's not as if there is still a whole stage beneath that moving platform!

Unbeatable camping/runaway. That's why. :glare:
I dont agree with this though. This is just a case of
Adaptation;lrn2. With adapting, everything becomes possible! Next stop: Corneria!

:052:
 
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Yeah the people who made the rulesets are stupid!!
I'm gonna have to beat off strawmen over this entire reply, aren't I? :glare:

OF COURSE, YOU PUT YOURSELF IN THAT POSITION! I totally agree, as if jumping is a main mechanic or anything important or something. It doesn't matter that such a neglegible option gets screwed, you should just adapt!
Sometimes options like that stop being smart. It's a matter of being able to adapt to a different situation. While air is up, you have to choose different options than you would normally choose. You can either jump in the hope that it pays off, jump knowing that you have a safe way to get down (Sonic, Ganon, Sheik, etc. are very good in this regard). You know what's funny? In a lot of situations, it's not smart to jump. Olimar vs. Metaknight, or Snake vs. Metaknight; olimar/snake should not be leaving the ground unless he has a guaranteed punish or a very, very good reason to. It's an option that's there, it's just a stupid one. Kinda like on this short segment of the stage, except that it's the entire matchup in a nutshell.

Omg yes, stalling, an amazing solution to an amazing stage! NOT THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM THOUGH.
No, it actually isn't. See, if you had taken the time to learn the stage, you would know that, in practice, if you know what you are doing, it's not an issue.

Yeah this Yaaaaaaaaaaay guy is dumb. Ice doesn't harm your mobility at all if you land or dash or do nothing, it only looks bad but you just have to adapt and everything will turn out fine! This adapting argument is a very valid point, I agree!
*sigh*

I really don't know if I should take you seriously at this point. This is the same **** Shaya was saying years ago: gameplay is changed, not destroyed. Your mobility is changed, not destroyed. Your options become different. The movement becomes a little harder to gauge. But you know what? If you can't learn to deal with it, you are a bad player. It's really not that hard to figure out what your options are, and how to use them on that part of the stage. And if you don't want to? Camp for 30 seconds. All in all, the "adapt" argument has proven itself. You maybe could've gotten away with bull**** like this before half the world started using the stage and it became very clear just how stupid and wrong this argument was. As is? It's evidently stupid and wrong, and you are stupid and wrong for trying to pass off your laziness to adapt to an element of gameplay this minute as an acceptable reason to ban it.

Yeah DUHHH. At least 1/3th is usable! The Smashville argument is soooo true, it's not as if there is still a whole stage beneath that moving platform!
The point here clearly went way over your head, so I'll make myself clear: if you can adapt to it, like most people who play this game can, it stops being a real problem.



I dont agree with this though. This is just a case of Adaptation;lrn2. With adapting, everything becomes possible! Next stop: Corneria!

:052:
You do know what the difference is between this argument when applied to the different types of stages, right? Here, let me point it out for you.

When you adapt your playstyle optimally to Pokemon Stadium 2's changes, Delfino's movements/water, Halberd's hazards, YI(B)'s weird floor, and Lylat's tilts, it stops being a problem (or at least is heavily mitigated; not really much you can do about the claw picking you at random).

When you adapt your playstyle optimally to Corneria's wall/fin, hanenbow's massive open space, and Summit's clear circle, it becomes a problem.

Really, this is not a hard concept to grasp, and it's kind of embarrassing that I have to explain it to you.
 
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