On vertical spacing, bubbles & the second-most-punishing character (European Social)

[King Funk]

If my opinion means anything to you guys, follow Marc's advice and don't ban MK.

There's absolutely no point in banning a character that is not harming your scene.

 

[Anaky]

There's absolutely no point in banning a character that is not harming your scene.

As a matter of fact he kinda is lol. C.R.Z and Cong have beeen known to just counterpick Metaknight to overcome a matchup, C.R.Z very recently actually.

Anyway sicne all EU countries are doing what they will, and always have done, we are going to do the same, its just like a ruleset. Players from different countries in EU will never come together and coem to a decision on either MK banned or a ruleset for nationals. For starters Holland will never ban MK so it doesn't really matter, it'd be a pointless discussion.

 

[King Funk]

As a matter of fact he kinda is lol. C.R.Z and Cong have beeen known to just counterpick Metaknight to overcome a matchup, C.R.Z very recently actually.

Anyway sicne all EU countries are doing what they will, and always have done, we are going to do the same, its just like a ruleset. Players from different countries in EU will never come together and coem to a decision on either MK banned or a ruleset for nationals. For starters Holland will never ban MK so it doesn't really matter, it'd be a pointless discussion.

I always liked the idea of a European ruleset to be honest. And I don't think making a vote with a selected lot of European players from various countries is a bad idea. I could make it happen.

 

[stelzig]

lol, don't ban metaknight.

 

[Mr-R]

Well to be honest if like no EU countries ban him, its not fair for him to be banned in UK, cuz for EU tournies which no1 from UK goes to anyway those people will want MK practice, so our decision rides on what the rest of you do.

As a matter of fact he kinda is lol. C.R.Z and Cong have beeen known to just counterpick Metaknight to overcome a matchup, C.R.Z very recently actually.

Anyway sicne all EU countries are doing what they will, and always have done, we are going to do the same, its just like a ruleset. Players from different countries in EU will never come together and coem to a decision on either MK banned or a ruleset for nationals. For starters Holland will never ban MK so it doesn't really matter, it'd be a pointless discussion.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

also just because 2 players counterpick metaknight ( yes counterpick, they don't even start out with him ), you want to ban him ?

 

[Anaky]

No Ramin I never said that, you are just assuming thats the reason.

 

[C.R.Z]

thats what it sounds like andy lol

in my defense it was only after the first game and only against pika and ice climbers (70-30 or worse MUs)

 

[Anaky]

Then you have to stop assuming so much innit.

 

[Lord Chair]

Honestly folks no one is going to look down on you if you ban MK as long as you have a fair reasoning. Why are you looking at the other countries to make your own decision? No one had trouble with Germany allow PS2 or France having had RC legal for a while and no one is bothered too much by Finland having MK banned.

If banning MK will return the UK scene from the dead then what's keeping you from banning him? The Netherlands don't have that issue, we don't have a majority of votes in favor of banning MK so we're in an entirely different situation.

 

[Laem]

If banning MK will return the UK scene from the dead then what's keeping you from banning him?

Can deff agree with this.

 

[udov]

Who can tell me if France will ban MK?

We've been (officially) discussing this for 3 weeks now and it turns out that the community is quite divided on the issue. Most of us seem to be in favor of banning him, but as in the US, it's mostly going to be up to TOs to decide individually. He's probably going to be banned in our two major tournaments though (namely Bushido Impact and Monkey Unit).

 

[Anaky]

Personally what i WANT personally is for all EU countries to come together on a decision on whether to ban Metaknight or not, but obviously that won't happen, so basically from what i see there's no point in us discussing what we as a country are going to do, either banning or keeping legal.

Anyway from what i see UK, Spain, and France seem to be banning MK. Holland doing differently, the only other major country is Germany, but like i said, this isn't going to affect any UK, Holland, France etc cuz we have all done things our own way.

Good luck with whatever you guys do anyway.

 

[-Jumpman-]

UK can't make up it's own policy, nubs.

 

[Calzorz]

didn't know you were good

lmao looking down on u.k players cloud could probs beat you


anywayss andy were not banning mk listen to some1 who has helped you train since day 1 and who has been in the scene a loong time!! most ppl in u.k want him banned cos they loose to kmac thats easy to see they gota step it up

 

[Mr-R]

calzorz stop feelling buthurt every time someone makes a joke about one of your players <3

 

[Calzorz]

calzorz stop feelling buthurt every time someone makes a joke about one of your players <3

lol just a fact that cloud could probs beat him no hurt here i really couldnt care just i know a few peeps getting anoyed that ppl looking down on u.k since a few of us quit but i think were all back into brawl now and when im in a bad mood my posts will come out like butthurt coss u.k is my family s0n

 

[Orion*]

Gotta be honest...
If you're losing to MKs in EU, 99% of the time it's probably because you're bad.

There's like

Staco, K@os, Me, (Ramin), Deimos

then there are some people capable of placing like
Bjay, Marc, I think Rydle in spain or whatever. Light has a decent pocket MK.

Like. When I think of NJ/NY in US I could think of instantly without trying

Anti, Atomsk, Nairo, Shadow, Inui, Jtails, Doom, P_wii (now TX), I could keep going. All of these players are at the level of the higher MKs here generally speaking (Bar anti that ***** is broken). In other words most people are just *****ing...

Deimos/Ramin or the mid/high level players don't even abuse mk. and he wasn't banned because he's broken, but because he's overcentralizing.

 

[Orion*]

when is the last time mk has won a tournament in europe, bar ramin just slaughtering leon for the millionth time in a row with a different character.

 

[Mr-R]

lol just a fact that cloud could probs beat him no hurt here i really couldnt care just i know a few peeps getting anoyed that ppl looking down on u.k since a few of us quit but i think were all back into brawl now and when im in a bad mood my posts will come out like butthurt coss u.k is my family s0n

Dude no one is looking down on the U.K. stop living in the past xD
You guys have proved urselves multiple times haha

Agree with orion, however what andy said about the community and the attendees increasing also makes sense. I suggest the U.K. hosts a mk banned tourney once and see how that goes.

 

[Anaky]

Before Alex can even post. The co-host (which i didnt know of) of our tournaments is definatly not banning MK, so he will be legal in UK.

 

[Jolteon]

Metaknight is officially remaining tournament legal in the UK, I could write a huge response about it but I'm going to summarise it into 2 points:

1. America are banning him for being over-centralising. The UK does not have this problem, therefore I do not believe that the UK has any reason to follow suit with this decision.

2. Lack of MK experience will hinder the UK's progression, particularly with several European countries not banning him if anyone should travel abroad.

tenchars .

 

[Marcbri]

LOL at cloud beating grew xD


btw spain is divided right now but im the one hosting so mk is legal. (no democracy whatsoever)

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Ramin is centralizing Europe.

¿Ban plz?

 

[Lord Chair]

LOL at cloud beating grew xD


btw spain is divided right now but im the one hosting so mk is legal. (no democracy whatsoever)

Francobri.

 

[Marc]

I always liked the idea of a European ruleset to be honest. And I don't think making a vote with a selected lot of European players from various countries is a bad idea. I could make it happen.

We tried a European ruleset before and it mostly was indicative of where people were leaning, which was very similar overall. Participation was rather low though and all countries have their own thing going at the moment. I would definitely participate in a European player/TO panel, but I'm not sure if it's needed.

 

[Anaky]

We tried a European ruleset before and it mostly was indicative of where people were leaning, which was very similar overall. Participation was rather low though and all countries have their own thing going at the moment. I would definitely participate in a European player/TO panel, but I'm not sure if it's needed.

We shud really do this. But how would we go about doing it?

 

[Greward]

Spain isn't going to ban MK. We maybe ban him for teams because its like MK ditto teams are everywhere, or maybe we don't allow double MK team, or we don't do anything about it. But i don't think we'll do, maybe we have some random tourney with MK banned but i don't think it will ever happen as a serious thing in Spain unless MK is banned in all Europe.

Even if CRZ did beat me he wouldn't be good lmao not like i'm a good player with constant results or anything. Besides i've lost to at least one player of every country in either tourney match or MM up until now. (well at least every big one, and UK too, Kira/Kasper/that falco guy beat me in a MM i think)

I'm mostly random flaming, but I've played CRZ in the past and if u say that he's to have improved a lot since Bushido, while I haven't, so yeah he could beat me. It is difficult to happen because i don't think i'll travel out of Spain, but yea we can all have happy MM if we meet unless you play falco (then i won't accept lol)

Ban Falco

We might use Japan's ruleset or a new scheme without Final Destination as a starter.

 

[Anaky]

Ok so is that you confirming Spain arent going to ban MK? UK want to know what France and Germany are doing, as a confirmed decision as UK players have been known to travel to these two countries only for EU events. We definatly wont ban if the majority of other EU countries dont, its the fairest way to do it for UK players that may travel abroad. But then again us Brawlers dont have any say on whether MK shud be banned or not, its up to the Melee TO's lololol.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Lol Orion, overcentralizing (not even a word) without criteria is kinda impossible.

 

[xDD-Master]

We probably should get an european BBR before even thinking about a ban lol. Idk why we dont have that anyway...

At least Germany has one
And we created a german wide ruleset with MK allowed of course
Even though we have some MK Ban Discussions atm (In our BBR too) I dont think germany will ban him, at least not officiel, because that would be stupid as we dont have an MK problem at all lol.
Once we also got an MK Problem, I may agree to ban him too, but atm thats not the case, so no Ban needed if you ask me.

 

[Marc]

Akuma, we actually have a Dutch Back Room for Brawl too, sort of. Not too active as we're all on the same page a lot, but sometimes a discussion pops up we don't necessarily need to be public. For Melee I've usually made the rulesets by contacting people on my own and defending my decisions publicly. A European Back Room is a big step to take because we have language barriers to deal with and many European communities are mostly isolated. Right now I wonder what the purpose would be when we already have these boards and the chat. A more pragmatic TO group (see below) might be more practical, but I'm still mostly satisfied with the status quo. What I would be interested in is a European Brawl tier list, but I think I can get that done without a special back room... Together with Slhoka and a lot of support I have done it twice before for Melee.

We shud really do this. But how would we go about doing it?

It'd be similar to Unity in that TOs and perhaps a panel of generally knowledgeable people come together and see what they can compromise on. It would involve discussions and votes, but:

-The major European countries tend to run highly similar rulesets already, at least the ones that interact. Do we need to remove the last nuances when it's only about a few stages?
-It's hard to really get together representatives for every country.
-We can have a European agreed upon/recommended ruleset, but I don't feel like applying force for people to run it like Unity does. This means that it will still be up to the TO, which is pretty much how it is now.

 

[Greward]

in europe we all have some differences in every regions but mostly we have a somehow united ruleset. i don't think we need a BBR because we already had one some time ago and it didn't work out.
I'm ok with the tier list thing.
And yeah, we're probably going to let MK unbanned (and falco too unfortunately). Confirming it is not up to me, but you can count it as confirmed lol

 

[teluoborg]

France is leaning towards a MK ban. Not because he's overcentralizing the metagame, but because Leon got obliterated by Ramin he breaks the CP system which is the basis of tournaments.

As far as I can tell that's the only good reason to ban him, and we're still looking for a good reason to not ban him.

 

[Marc]

How about: He's not disproportionately succesful. If Leon wants him banned just because he lost to Ramin's MK recently, that's disappointing. Especially if you consider that Ramin won before with Marth and is the best player in Europe regardless.

I don't really see how MK breaks the CP system except for the fact that he has no bad matchups. I would argue that while several other top characters might have small disadvantages, they don't seem held back by it too much. If solo Diddy can consistently do well in the US and solo Marth can consistently do well here, the notion that Brawl is all about teh counterpickz falls a little flat. There will always be clear best options, MK just happens to be the best. He also technically can be CP'ed, it's just that every MK player will ban FD.

 

[xDD-Master]

Akuma, we actually have a Dutch Back Room for Brawl too, sort of. Not too active as we're all on the same page a lot, but sometimes a discussion pops up we don't necessarily need to be public. For Melee I've usually made the rulesets by contacting people on my own and defending my decisions publicly. A European Back Room is a big step to take because we have language barriers to deal with and many European communities are mostly isolated. Right now I wonder what the purpose would be when we already have these boards and the chat. A more pragmatic TO group (see below) might be more practical, but I'm still mostly satisfied with the status quo. What I would be interested in is a European Brawl tier list, but I think I can get that done without a special back room... Together with Slhoka and a lot of support I have done it twice before for Melee.

Many things in germany are also discussed public and not in the BBR. Quik and me always try to keep the BBR active, but it doesnt work properly, well there isnt that much to discuss etc., so I dont blame the other members for being a bit inactive xD
Of course we could contact some people for brawl and get together (The MSN group already is a good thing for that, even though its sometimes buggy...).
I dont think the language is a big problem, as most people are at least able to speak some english.
A group of TOs, Knowledgable Players and Top Players of each country might be the best.
The status quo... well it is/was good, even though we dont have many tournaments atm, so it seems that we have a problem, but I dont think anyone can be blamed for that, its just school etc.
An European Tier List would be great. Of course it could be done without an BBR, but that would make many things a lot easier, as we can collect opinions etc. in one place.
Problem with Brawl is, that not many people seem to see the potential of a EU Tier List, as most people just accept the American one, due to brawl not having region differences, even though our Metagames are different, so at least I think it would make sense to make a seperate Tier List, just like we have another Ruleset.

I can agree that an European Unity Ruleset isnt neccessary, as we a) use very similar rulesets anyway (- Finland) and b) it already works this way.
But I think we can agree that there are some advantages of a unified ruleset (Even though there are ofc negatives aspects as well).

It'd be similar to Unity in that TOs and perhaps a panel of generally knowledgeable people come together and see what they can compromise on. It would involve discussions and votes, but:

-The major European countries tend to run highly similar rulesets already, at least the ones that interact. Do we need to remove the last nuances when it's only about a few stages?
-It's hard to really get together representatives for every country.
-We can have a European agreed upon/recommended ruleset, but I don't feel like applying force for people to run it like Unity does. This means that it will still be up to the TO, which is pretty much how it is now.

Well, it would make the travelling easier if you dont need to read and learn every new ruleset the tournaments have to offer.

I dont think that it would be actually that hard. Most TOs, knowledgable/influencable/important people and top players are already active here.

Force isnt that good, thats true. But an agreed Ruleset would be a good thing nevertheless. And its just a recommendation for TOs. This also especially helps new TOs, as they dont have to defend their choice of ruleset.

in europe we all have some differences in every regions but mostly we have a somehow united ruleset. i don't think we need a BBR because we already had one some time ago and it didn't work out.
I'm ok with the tier list thing.
And yeah, we're probably going to let MK unbanned (and falco too unfortunately). Confirming it is not up to me, but you can count it as confirmed lol

Yeah the last differences could be overcome.
Just because it didnt work out doesnt mean that we shouldnt try it again. Thats life, you fail but you try again, even harder than before.

France is leaning towards a MK ban. Not because he's overcentralizing the metagame, but because Leon got obliterated by Ramin he breaks the CP system which is the basis of tournaments.

As far as I can tell that's the only good reason to ban him, and we're still looking for a good reason to not ban him.

Wtf... the fact that he breaks the CP system isnt a good reason to ban him.

A good reason: He never was a problem, and he will never be a problem in Europe.

To add to Marcs Argument: Having an even MU vs MK is enough, and Diddy and potentially others can have that.

 

[Marc]

An European Tier List would be great. Of course it could be done without an BBR, but that would make many things a lot easier, as we can collect opinions etc. in one place.
Problem with Brawl is, that not many people seem to see the potential of a EU Tier List, as most people just accept the American one, due to brawl not having region differences, even though our Metagames are different, so at least I think it would make sense to make a seperate Tier List, just like we have another Ruleset.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312086

If anything, we can see what comes out of this. Spread the link!

As for a Euro BBR, not so sure. I'd be worried about the activity and the quality of the discussion. The previous polls were mostly people voting for their preferences, which is fine, but doesn't really require an elitist approach since we all agree anyway. If we want a European ruleset that is actually used we could try and get the top TOs and players together in a room on here, but I'm still having doubts about how many people would want that. We should keep it in mind for now and see if just a tier list is even possible.

 

[xDD-Master]

As for a Euro BBR, not so sure. I'd be worried about the activity and the quality of the discussion. The previous polls were mostly people voting for their preferences, which is fine, but doesn't really require an elitist approach since we all agree anyway. If we want a European ruleset that is actually used we could try and get the top TOs and players together in a room on here, but I'm still having doubts about how many people would want that. We should keep it in mind for now and see if just a tier list is even possible.

But activity depends on the people, its not the idea's fault if the people dont use it ;p
Quality on the other hand... idk.
Everyone and everything is subjective, so that is, like you said, fine.
And if we all agree, that is even better, because then, projects like a ruleset and/or a tier list can be done even quicker.
I think "something new" will get a lot more attention than just getting everyone together.
Yeah lets see how that turns out ^^

 

[Marcbri]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312079

better late than never I guess.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I really hate the "he breaks the CP system" argument because it's entirely false in Europe. The hardest CP he has are either Delphino or Frigate, that's roughly the same as the ICs on FD. If everybody had a pocket IC and thus every set had FD banned would you say they "break" the "CP system" too? It's such an empty, arbitrary argument and holds NO weight in it at all, stop acting as if there were any truth in it.

 

[Orion*]

France is leaning towards a MK ban. Not because he's overcentralizing the metagame, but because Leon got obliterated by Ramin he breaks the CP system which is the basis of tournaments.

As far as I can tell that's the only good reason to ban him, and we're still looking for a good reason to not ban him.

You people only play on SV anyway

Leon didn't adapt to recovering at all vs ramin :|
Like. My marth isnt that good, but I can recover LMAO