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Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

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What doesn't come out faster than Plasma Whip? :p

You probably wanna play this MU norad style, with a lot of well-spaced bair and if you need to side-b, be creative with it. ICs grab range sucks, so falling nair DI'd away is also safe and virtually lagless.

Does Dair separate the climbers?
 

Hence

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Look, grounded Plasma Whip doesn't outspace desynced blizzard...ever. If you've ever tried it, you'd know that Blizzard's priority is higher and the 3% spark Plasma Whip hitbox will come out. Approaching Plasma Whip I'm not sure about, but I'm fairly certain regular approaching Plasma Whip doesn't outspace Fullhop Blizzard.
In response to FadedImage's comment about powershielding Plasma Whip:
That's exactly why I have separated Good Climbers from Ice Climbers in statistics. Good Climbers are consistent. We should test this, but Nana & Popo will already be running, thus Nana avoids getting hit. Running into Plasma Whip not only means it is more likely for you to misspace, but they can easily keep momentum and punish the ending lag before we can spotdodge or move. Again, this is from experience. We should test it or at least look at frame data. My laptop is about to die or I would... Lain himself believes a running grab is possible after a PS'd Plasma Whip, though
 

FadedImage

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from personal experience, side-b will not outspace a blizzard. What usually would happen to me is I would be in range for a tipper side-b, but then as I lean forward to use the whip, my hand gets hit by blizzard and my attack stops.

As for the side-b thing, it's true that you have to be extra careful with spacing on the side-b. This is true with all attacks here. your n-airs, b-airs, and such, have to be flawless.


wait, sfp did you just ask if OUR d-air separates them? lol...?
 

Nefarious B

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heheh, im sure dair separates them, it knocks them all over the place.

Of course, you wouldn't even think of using dair for that, unless maybe they were chasing you while you recover high. Seriously, auto death if you miss.
 

ksizl4life

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its even. i beat snakeee last week with them, right frank? XD tho he did beat me when i used them the week before so it can go either way.
 

FadedImage

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its even. i beat snakeee last week with them, right frank? XD tho he did beat me when i used them the week before so it can go either way.
oh ice climber mains....


I'll be at Genesis this weekend, no updates for a while. (hopefully I'll come back with tons of input on lots of match-ups... see you there nef!)
 

Nefarious B

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oh ice climber mains....


I'll be at Genesis this weekend, no updates for a while. (hopefully I'll come back with tons of input on lots of match-ups... see you there nef!)
Def, although I won't be there Friday. My brother/teammate has school friday so I'm just opting for singles.
 

PepsiMista

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IC`s can PS a PW and Grab you...
the last stock i had against a ic main was killed that exact same way.
i felt horrible, theres really not much i can do after i get grabbed.
 

Hence

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IC`s can PS a PW and Grab you...
the last stock i had against a ic main was killed that exact same way.
i felt horrible, theres really not much i can do after i get grabbed.

I'm well-studied in this matchup because I play it often and live in Lain Land. Honestly, you're crazy if you think this matchup is an easy win. Here's my collaboration of information about Ice Climbers.


Rule #1: Ground yourself, children.
I'm not joking. A double jump can mean the difference between three stocks and two. Ice Climbers have a better, more damaging U-Air juggle than us.

Rule #2: Avoid using Jab/Plasma Whip and limit Flip Jump/Kick.
This may seem difficult, but IC's get a free stock after a PS'd Plasma Whip. Furthermore, our third jab can be shieldgrabbed.
The last thing you want to be is predictable and Flip Jump does just that. It creates a predictable trejectory, much like a roll. Side note: Blizzard stops the flip function of Flip Jump; express caution, especially at the ledge...

Rule #3: Get them offstage ASAP.
Squall Recovery and Attack getup are punishable with D-Smash and they seem to be the most frequently used options by IC mains. Their roll get up and normal getup are terrible without the use of desyncs. You can literally get a free D-Smash there too. It all comes down to prediction, but alllowing them to even grab the edge is where you messed up. Edgeguard them to hell if you plan on winning. No, I'm not joking. This matchup is tougher than you make it out to be, guys.

Rule #4: IC's Are Unplankable.
Flip Jump stall until the Blizzard stops. Be careful though, Ice Bergs can gimp your Flip Jump if you mess up your timing.

Rule #5: You have no safe approaches.
That's right, don't even try it. Your best approaching option is B-Air because of IC's terrible grab range, but even then... Well, let's just say that you have to be close enough to the IC's for B-Air to be viable.
If you are positive that you can catch the IC's while standing still, you may attempt a Plasma Whip approach. Keep in mind that you're taking a huge risk, though. The reward is a shot at killing Nana or a free Dash Attack or Jab when the climbers drop their shield. Even Blizzard outranges Plasma Whip though, so good luck catching them off guard unless you wave bounce it. Actually, that's a good idea that requires testing. Can we wavebounce a Plasma Whip through a fullhop blizzard?
I would expect IC's to be shielding a lot against us because not only will they not expect a ZSS to grab, but they can interrupt a grab with Nana/Popo's jab. Your best option is to fire an uncharged paralyzer in this position. It will stun Nana if they powershield and encourage them to drop their shield if they don't. Punish the dropped shield. :]

Rule #7: Juggling
Juggling completes itself with edgeguarding in how to beat IC's.
Don't allow them to land and don't allow yourself to get above them. When above IC's, you're running a very good chance of getting juggled or grabbed . You can head for the ledge, but our ledge game is useless there.
Plasma Wire is useless as well, simply because you don't want to risk spiking them to the ground for the reasons stated above. Take note that their D-Air has incredible range and sends them straight down, so it is tough to consistently U-Air before they D-Air. Often times one U-Air is enough to separate the climbers, but Popo isn't going to give you his woman without a fight. Practice, practice, practice.

Rule #8: Tilty Whaaaa-?
U-Tilt is risky upon being shielded, moreso in this matchup than others, obviously.
F-Tilt has a larger range than their grab range when spaced horizontally. The only thing they can do OOS before you can react again is possibly F-Tilt. They can PS though, so be careful.
D-Tilt is amazing here, especially when you're behind the climbers. It is your best bet at setting up a juggle and effectively killing Nana. Note that I'm not sure if double D-Tilt shield pressure can be pivot grabbed by the climbers, but I'll try to find out asap. I know you guys like to wait for the opponent to drop their shield.

Rule #9: Single Popo is no push over.
If you're not Zero Suit Samus. Popo has a D-Throw chaingrab at 0% that does work against ZSS. With that said, Flip Jump is always an option of the opponent doesn't buffer their grab. What makes single Popo so bad against ZSS is B-Air. Regardless of percentage, B-Air approaches to B-Air edge guarding will always beat him out. He can't recover low, so you can predict his single Ice Berg jump upon recovery and boost jump into Plasma Whip. If it misses, just punish the Squall Hammer he's about to use to recover with D-Smash. If you predict that he won't Squall, flip jump stall at the ledge and allow him to fall to his death. Simple.

Rule #10: Counterpicking and Camping.
Ban FD and platform camp when all else fails.
Strike Yoshi's Island (brawl). I believe it is our second worst neutral in this matchup. The tilting platform creates space for them to pressure you (with U-Airs) into dropping off or through to the stage. Even something as miniscule as that can open you up for a grab. Most Ice Climbers ban Brinstar, but both Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise should be easy wins for ZSS. If you win your neutral, you should win your set.
You can camp IC's, but only if there are platforms. Otherwise I wouldn't expect them to approach you. Ice Berg spam can cause you to become frustrated on flat stages (Seriously, ban FD). If you jump, you run the risk of getting caught in the air or being grabbed. If you shieldwalk forward, you run the risk of being grabbed. If you approach with Plasma Whip, you run the risk of being grabbed.
It's okay, I hate this matchup too.

Rule #11: **** Nana, don't get grabbed.
Nana plays melee in Brawl. Have fun.

40:60 Lain/Ambrose/Meep (good) Climbers
50:50 Ice Climbers
90:10 Popo
Been discussed, it has. It's horrrible, I know! :(

Pingas as usual, IC's.
 
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I went to a "Smashfest" yesterday and met a guy who plays ICs. I was really surprised, because there aren't many players of obscure characters around here. Most everyone just plays some top 5 character.

First of all, I disagree with 40:60. No, I wasn't playing Meep, but he wasn't playing Snakeee either. He knew what he was doing, and I like to think I know well enough what I'm doing as well.

First of all, I found that the ICs' grab range is really, really bad. I guess we knew that as it has been said, but I found myself getting away with a lot of things I didn't think I would. For instance, spaced back air on shield is safe on block. Nair DI'd away is safe on block.

What is most effective in this match-up seems to be jumping behind the climbers when they shield. This puts you in a really good position because you can't be grabbed and you are free to pressure their shield. Dtilt is the perfect move here; it's safe on block with pretty good range and a disjointed hitbox.

Also, I don't think it has been said enough that once the ICs are in the air they are absolutely helpless against you. You can juggle them for what feels like hours. Getting the ICs into the air should be a lot of damage.

On the subject of side-b blocking, SH side-b is very effective, but don't do it standing. Also, if you find yourself above the climbers, dair is a pretty effective way of separating them but as usual be careful. Dair is no where near safe on block.

I put this in the Diddy Kong category, where not knowing the match-up very well you'll get destroyed a few times. I definitely did, but once I figured them out I more than held my own. Because of how easily ZSS can kill Nana, how easily she can keep them separated, and how badly she wrecks them anywhere but on the ground (which I admit is frustrating) I would say this is a solid 60:40 match-up in ZSS' favor. Move of choice is definitely back air. Don't go to long stages like FD/Smashville. Brinstar/RC/Norfair etc are stages of choice.
 

Hence

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First of all, I found that the ICs' grab range is really, really bad. I guess we knew that as it has been said, but I found myself getting away with a lot of things I didn't think I would. For instance, spaced back air on shield is safe on block.
Yep.
What is most effective in this match-up seems to be jumping behind the climbers when they shield. This puts you in a really good position because you can't be grabbed and you are free to pressure their shield.
Cross-Ups can be punished with a pivot grab, don't be stupid. Good Climbers will see through your approach. Good Climbers also won't stay in shield long enough for that to happen.
If you Cross-Up and B-Air, they can just Squall OOS.
Also, I don't think it has been said enough that once the ICs are in the air they are absolutely helpless against you. You can juggle them for what feels like hours. Getting the ICs into the air should be a lot of damage.
IC's D-Air stop juggles.
They can also squall or throw an ice berg if they predict your U-Air. Squall if you timed improperly and icebergs to gain a small ammount of leverage and avoid the U-Air.
On the subject of side-b blocking, SH side-b is very effective, but don't do it standing. Also, if you find yourself above the climbers, dair is a pretty effective way of separating them but as usual be careful. Dair is no where near safe on block.
No comment.
I put this in the Diddy Kong category, where not knowing the match-up very well you'll get destroyed a few times.
Diddy Kong has the advantage against Zero Suit Samus, and it's an obvious advantage at that.

...Sooperdooper Paris Model Airplanes.
 

SummonerAU

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Cross-Ups can be punished with a pivot grab, don't be stupid. Good Climbers will see through your approach. Good Climbers also won't stay in shield long enough for that to happen.
If you Cross-Up and B-Air, they can just Squall OOS.
.
FF Bair buffer dash away. Solves all of your problems.

<- Zero on a friend's account.
 

Snakeee

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I like that pic with Samus in the ice lol.
Where did you find that Hence?

Also I still say 6/4 ZSS.
You don't have to space with Side B!
I can't even say what I do now bc it just sort of comes to me on the fly for some reason >_>
I use d-smashes sparingly, retreating B-airs, and I'm not sure what else lol. Kelvin can you remember what I did?
 

PepsiMista

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The Matchup is hard if you dont play it right, also i suggest edge hogging, you can Also Footstool Nana, its completely Satisfying.

I think YI brawl is a Great Stage against them.
 

noradseven

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I think it is 5:5 against the good ICs, because of ZSS's speed it becomes a very instant death match, I just got good at, destroying nana, and like you said once nana is gone the match becomes trivial.

I like that pic with Samus in the ice lol.
Where did you find that Hence?

Also I still say 6/4 ZSS.
You don't have to space with Side B!
I can't even say what I do now bc it just sort of comes to me on the fly for some reason >_>
I use d-smashes sparingly, retreating B-airs, and I'm not sure what else lol. Kelvin can you remember what I did?
Snakeee your new AV, RAAAAAGGGGEEEEEE, naw but the character looks cool so its okay.

Imagin I just did a 3 seal Counter hit combo into Furinkazan... even though it sucks against nu13
 

Hence

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I agree with 50:50, "40:60 against good IC's" was a joke from my own notes.

@Snakeee: Deviant Art, where else? :lol:
 

Snakeee

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I think it is 5:5 against the good ICs, because of ZSS's speed it becomes a very instant death match, I just got good at, destroying nana, and like you said once nana is gone the match becomes trivial.



Snakeee your new AV, RAAAAAGGGGEEEEEE, naw but the character looks cool so its okay.

Imagin I just did a 3 seal Counter hit combo into Furinkazan... even though it sucks against nu13
Bang right? This Bang player online (who was pretty awesome) was 1 hit away from perfecting me, and I still somehow managed to win the game. My brother was watching as I was hitting him with drives and said, "he....he can't do anything". :laugh:
 

noradseven

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Bang right? This Bang player online (who was pretty awesome) was 1 hit away from perfecting me, and I still somehow managed to win the game. My brother was watching as I was hitting him with drives and said, "he....he can't do anything". :laugh:
He is my #2, but yeah it sucks, his meta game is still evoving really fast though, mainly cause his install is hard as hell to use properly *YOU CAN'T BLOCK :(

I only gotta play for like 4 hours but ****nnn Ragna is so easy, maybe its because I played a decent bit of GG but ****. Picks up ranga does his BnB on second attempt just by guessing what the inputs would be *shakes head

Actually if he had nails left he probably should of been able to finish you off, a quick TK 236D, into a dash perferably a nail dash could of drained that last little bit. But then again he probably ran out of nails :(.
 

Hence

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Personally, I prefer Taokaka. :3

I'm purchsing BlazBlue in a few days. I've only played it a few times but it's freaking amazing!~
My XBL gamertag is Wafyl if you're interested in playing.
 

ph00tbag

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Personally, I prefer Taokaka. :3

I'm purchsing BlazBlue in a few days. I've only played it a few times but it's freaking amazing!~
My XBL gamertag is Wafyl if you're interested in playing.
Tao's got some of the most fun combos to watch, as well as monster corner pressure, from what I can tell. That's really all I can say; haven't played the game.
 

noradseven

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Tao's got some of the most fun combos to watch
You have no idea how wrong you are, she has 2 combos that is about it, the only character worse is noel, or maybe nu-13.

I like arakune's, racheal's, and litchi's combos in terms of appearance.

I also like some bang combos mainly cause its bang and he is awesome.
 

ph00tbag

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You have no idea how wrong you are, she has 2 combos that is about it, the only character worse is noel, or maybe nu-13.

I like arakune's, racheal's, and litchi's combos in terms of appearance.

I also like some bang combos mainly cause its bang and he is awesome.
See, with all three of those characters, I'm either thoroughly confused about what's going on, or (in the case of Arakune) curious as to what kind of recreational drugs the creators are favoring.

Taokaka's two combos are just more fun to watch than any other combo I've seen in the game. It may also be the fact that she looks like HR Giger's idea of a house cat.
 

noradseven

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See, with all three of those characters, I'm either thoroughly confused about what's going on, or (in the case of Arakune) curious as to what kind of recreational drugs the creators are favoring.

Taokaka's two combos are just more fun to watch than any other combo I've seen in the game. It may also be the fact that she looks like HR Giger's idea of a house cat.
turn off the volume and all the fun is gone the best part about tao is the voice acting, I can't decide between the US and Jp voice though they both rule so hard.

Bang is the same way no volume and it loses some of the awesome.
 

ph00tbag

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turn off the volume and all the fun is gone the best part about tao is the voice acting, I can't decide between the US and Jp voice though they both rule so hard.
Hell yeah. I love Taokaka's voice. Soooo ridiculous.
 

FadedImage

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omfg take it to the general discussion thread or I'm going to hunt you down in your beds and **** your eyesockets.

10skull****s
 

NickRiddle

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hey this is a SERIOUS DISCUSSION, also lol at the rererere discussion of the marth match.
If only this SERIOUS DISCUSSION were in the right room. Why not just make a ZSS BB discussion thread? I'm sure nobody would lock it, since it would get so much attention. At least take it to General. :(
 

noradseven

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If only this SERIOUS DISCUSSION was in the right room. Why not just make a ZSS BB discussion thread? I'm sure nobody would lock it, since it would get so much attention. At least take it to General. :(
I hope this is double meta sarcasm, cause I was being sarcastic, sometimes I get general and matchup mixedup sometimes sorry.



Also this thread should be p. dead for a while unless anyone has any specific matchup they want to discuss.
 

NickRiddle

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I hope this is double meta sarcasm, cause I was being sarcastic, sometimes I get general and matchup mixedup sometimes sorry.



Also this thread should be p. dead for a while unless anyone has any specific matchup they want to discuss.
Metamindgame Spam.
 
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