Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

[PepsiMista]

I hate pikachu, the matchup is like 45-55 pika.

I played Anther in wi-fi and he pretty much had it bagged.

recently i played a friends Pika and won most of the time.

 

[NickRiddle]

Hehe, this will probably be a huge read, so please bear with me.



Pikachu is one of those character with a million tricks, ranging from amazing to useless. He is short and agile, good at camping and approaching, with decent air and ground games. He has a 0%-47% buffered f-throw CG on ZSS, and with the discovery of the reverse uair-footstool Quick-Attack (Called QA from now on) lock, he is one scary opponent. With that being said, he is certainly beatable by ZSS.


Pikachu's Approaching: Many Pikachus will try to jump at you with t-jolts. Just sheild the t-jolt and counter with a uair. Smarter Pikachus will not approach ZSS often, throwing t-jolts at her until she approaches, then using his mobility and QA to dodge ZSS's moves and punishing with their own. Also, many of Pikachu's aerials have little to no lag, so watch out for those.


Approaching Pikachu: Perfect spacing is the only way to fight a Pikachu. From 0%-47% one mistake is a CG to the edge of the stage. Afterwards, it's a grab combo. Perfectly spaced Bair is the only safe move on a Pikachu's sheild. (I've been grabbed out of Nair, Uair, and ESAM has run at me when I tried to >B him, then he grabbed me.) Pikachu can duck under Paralyzer and Grab (unless it's the tip of the grab with the weird up and down motion)


With the limited approaching, it seems like it's impossible to beat Pikachu. Fear not, as it is definitely possible. What I said is only if the Pikachu is reading your pattern, so try to switch it up.


Pikachu in the air: Pikachu has some of the best aerials in the game. Uair combos into itself or other aerials. Fair practically auto-cancels upon landing, and if Pikachu lands before the last hit, he can follow up with jabs, a grab, a uair, (leading into the uair footstool QA combo... Scary.) tilts, or d-smash. Bair is a multi-hitting attack that is hard to SDI out of, and it does a fair amount of damage and then knocks you away. Dair hits kinda hard, and has a weird hutbox. An interesting fact about Dair is that if a Pikachu lands with a Dair, it sends out a shockwave that deals damage/knockback. Pikachu can SH a Dair and have it end before they land, or they can create the shockwave depending on if they Fast-Fall. Pikachu's Nair is his killing aerial.


ZSS in the air: Your Bair outranges every aerial Pikachu has. It flat-out beats all of them too. The only problem is, Pikachu can pixup with t-jolts, which Bair doesn't always cancel out. Our Uair beats Pikachu's Nair and Fair, but ties with Dair and Bair if you space poorly. Nair is near useless vs. Pikachu's Aerials, since his are much faster than nair, and multi-hitting moves beat Nair. No real point in using Fair vs. Pikachu, unless it's after d-smash. An amazing advantage we have in the air, is we can go under t-jolts, then use our double jump and uair to punish Pikachus who are too predictable.


Pikachu on the ground: Since it needs to be said again, watch out for the 0%-47% CG. Pikachu will nor normally start on the ground, but will often fair into a ground attack. F-smash has a little bit of startup, so it punishes spotdodges, and it has a sweetspot next to Pikachu. U-smash kills farily early, has good range, and combos into Thunder if they read/predict your Air-dodge/DI. F-tilt is a last-resort KO move. (Around 140 with DI) Utilt is a combo starter. D-tilt isn't really used often, but after one Pikachu can slide back a little for spacing.
D-smash is the move that most Pikachus will use the most on the ground. If you do not DI this move, it does good damage, and combos into Thunder. SDI this move up to get out. Ifthe last hit gets you, be prepared to dodge the thunder.


ZSS on the ground: Our d-tilt and d-smash outrange every move Pikachu can do on the ground, (except for f-smash) making them excellent choices. Grabbing Pikachu doesn't really work, and neither does Paralyzer. If Pikachu happens to actually stay on the ground, ZSS wins here. (After 47%)


I'll finish the rest later. (Off-stage stuff)

 

[FadedImage]

Pikachu boards have already covered this pretty thoroughly, here's the post for their summary...

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6487148&postcount=1

It's pretty **** accurate so read up. However, most of the talk is about how ZSS has the advantage here, and here, and here, and then they say the match-up is even.


From what I know about Pikachu (being my alt) and reading Nick's summary, I have a couple qualms.

Almost all of Pikachu's aerials have significant landing lag if you don't properly auto-cancel them. D-Smash also has tons of lag after, you can take your time to dash attack or pivot d-tilt, etc. In my opinion, we have great tools to punish Pikachu in almost any situation.

Also, saying b-air is the only safe thing on Pikachu seems extreme. How is he any different than most characters where n-air (if not p-shielded), well spaced side-b and cross over u-air are also safe?

I think this match-up is almost a mirror fight. Both characters are trying to get the other into the air so they can get under them, and both characters have difficulty edgeguarding one another, although it's possible for both. In the end, it comes down to the fact that Pikachu is a tiny bit lighter than ZSS, and ZSS's aerial KO is better than Pikachu's aerial KO (B-Air > N-Air).

imo this could be 55-45 to 60-40 our advantage.

 

[sasook]

I'll try and find out how to SDI bair for you guys when I get back from vacation.

For utilt juggles, DI into him. As said before, DI up for usmash. Usmash is ridiculously easy to DI, all it takes is one tap up.

All I have left to say for now is that we should probably discuss that new uair-footstool thing a bit more. That thing is scary.

 

[NickRiddle]

Pikachu boards have already covered this pretty thoroughly, here's the post for their summary...

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6487148&postcount=1

It's pretty **** accurate so read up. However, most of the talk is about how ZSS has the advantage here, and here, and here, and then they say the match-up is even.


From what I know about Pikachu (being my alt) and reading Nick's summary, I have a couple qualms.

Almost all of Pikachu's aerials have significant landing lag if you don't properly auto-cancel them. D-Smash also has tons of lag after, you can take your time to dash attack or pivot d-tilt, etc. In my opinion, we have great tools to punish Pikachu in almost any situation.

Also, saying b-air is the only safe thing on Pikachu seems extreme. How is he any different than most characters where n-air (if not p-shielded), well spaced side-b and cross over u-air are also safe?

I think this match-up is almost a mirror fight. Both characters are trying to get the other into the air so they can get under them, and both characters have difficulty edgeguarding one another, although it's possible for both. In the end, it comes down to the fact that Pikachu is a tiny bit lighter than ZSS, and ZSS's aerial KO is better than Pikachu's aerial KO (B-Air > N-Air).

imo this could be 55-45 to 60-40 our advantage.

Well, I was just speaking from exp... ESAM punishes almost anything I do, but he cannot punish a bair to the shield.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You guys really think it's our advantage?

I agree with Faded that the match is very mirror-ish. Pikachu's neutral special is something I'm surprised to see go unmentioned, because it is freaking obnoxious.

I'm not going to talk about this one as much because I've got very little offline Pikachu experience. Like the guy above, I played Anther/The Truth/etc on wifi and it wasn't good, but of course that's wifi and those guys are very, very good players and I'm maybe above average.

At a recent "tournament" (lolz) I went to, I played what seemed like an OK Pikachu and ***** him without really doing anything different from what I normally do. I do agree that nair is very good, but I don't recall him ducking under my grab...

 

[sasook]

Just wanna clear something up here. Pika is NOT as light as you think he is - with proper DI and momentum canceling, he isn't dying before 170%. Thats not an exaggeration, I'm dead serious. The Links just finished discussing him and he is quite literally almost as heavy as Link.

 

[Zero]

Pikachu boards have already covered this pretty thoroughly, here's the post for their summary...

Bleh, when other boards do their discussion, why don't we go and discuss it with them, and add another finished matchup to the list? It seems so sloooow that we get asked to discuss our character with the other boards, yet don't use it as an opportunity to get information for ourselves.

@sfp: ph00t addressed t-jolt, we have the advantage.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Bleh, when other boards do their discussion, why don't we go and discuss it with them, and add another finished matchup to the list? It seems so sloooow that we get asked to discuss our character with the other boards, yet don't use it as an opportunity to get information for ourselves.

@sfp: ph00t addressed t-jolt, we have the advantage.

I saw actually, didn't know nair beat tj

EDIT: I invited the Pikachus to come discuss.

 

[Pikabunz]

I have almost 0 experience in this match up, cause no one plays zss. But I do know that Pika can 0-47 her with the fthrow cg.

 

[Nefarious B]

I have almost 0 experience in this match up, cause no one plays zss. But I do know that Pika can 0-47 her with the fthrow cg.

What is pika's typical followup to the CG and how much damage does that finisher do, just out of curiousity? I would think usmash?

 

[ph00tbag]

What is pika's typical followup to the CG and how much damage does that finisher do, just out of curiousity? I would think usmash?

You'll probably be seeing usmash. Maybe nair if you DI up. Be sure you DI the usmash. Otherwise, Pika will have a Thunder field day.

 

[Pikabunz]

Upsmash is the only finisher after a fthrow and that does about 14%. The upsmash is only guaranteed at lower percents, so no need to worry about upsmash to thunder. At higher percents you can just down b or di out.

Also, Realistically you will never be 0-47% cg'd, there's no legal stage long enough for that. At most, Pika will 0-41% you and that's going from one side of fd to the other.

 

[shlike]

k prime are you going to hobo 17??? if so we need to play

 

[Pikabunz]

The chances of me going are looking very slim. I don't think anyone in SA wants to drive. :/

Here's the best possible inescapable combo Pika has on ZSS. Starting from one end of FD.

Fthrow x5 > Dthrow x2 > Reverse Utilt - 66%
Pika can do up to 3 pummels before the last Dthrow for an extra 6%.

 

[Ussi]

Well, i'll give this piece of info:

Pika's dair will out-prioritize your Up B and Usmash. Not sure about fair. And when i say out-prioritize, Pikachu can be miles away but dair RIGHT THRU your whip at max range like paper.


This is best left to ESAM as his brother plays ZSS.

Also we did this match up already before: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218466 so there is our view on it.


and a tip

If the ZSS you are fighting has a BIG tendency to dsmash twice EVEN IF YOU BLOCK THE FIRST ONE!! You have enough time to fsmash OUT OF SHIELD before her 2nd dsmash I've done it a lot in battle. So ZSS better not have a habit of doing dsmash twice or she is gonna get punished with a 20% hitting move

I think its 55/45 Pikachu

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

We only do one, actually. If we do two, it's because we were baiting you from the first one.

BTW, We prefer uair to upsmash (up smash is not a good move vs many aerials), but thanks for the info on up+b as we do use it for pillaring.

Any of our juggling/killing aerials (fair, bair, uair) will cut through any of your aerials like a hot knife through butter.

My inkling about this matchup from an "on paper" standpoint is that it's about even, from 50:50 to 55:45 ZSS. I'm not sure Pikachu can really fight us on the ground or in the air without gimmicks after ~50% (chain grab end) because nair cuts through Thunderjolt and our aerials outrange/prioritize his, and even our ground game is better, but he rocks us moreso than other characters offstage due to his amazing recovery and down+b edgeguarding (which we don't have a real answer for) and the chaingrab/combos are a big deal because ZSS is pretty light.

Of course that is vastly oversimplifying things, but giving each character a good once-over, that's what I see. I'm just hypothesizing, though.

 

[Ussi]

o.o; on paper things appear way different than they do in battle. So you might want to try to brawl a pikachu. Wifi doesn't do a great job , but it gives a general idea.. in a good connection .(i am not implying that you use wifi or anything but its for anyone who DOES use wifi to judge MUs)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

o.o; on paper things appear way different than they do in battle. So you might want to try to brawl a pikachu. Wifi doesn't do a great job , but it gives a general idea.. in a good connection .(i am not implying that you use wifi or anything but its for anyone who DOES use wifi to judge MUs)

No, I know that. I'm trying to contribute. I said earlier in the thread that my match-up experience is limited.

I have played one or two "decent" Pikachu players locally, but it wasn't in the proper environment (friendlies, tournaments with stupid rules) so it's hard for me to say. =/

When I played these guys, I felt like in the air it was not good for Pikachu. Our aerials when properly spaced have disjointed hitboxes and seemed to wreck Pikachu's aerials. On the ground, ZSS out-spaces much of Pikachu's ground game and limits his options there at mid-range. His only consistent options seemed to be his down smash which is very easily DI'd out of.

However off-stage, it felt bad for me. Pikachu has amazing recovery, far far better than ZSS and can come back from nearly anything. His off-stage edgeguarding options are a big deal. In addition, his down+b was annoying nearly anywhere; either I was stupid and kept walking into it or it's just very easy to hit with.

Also, I only was grabbed once at high percentages. I felt confident in avoiding Pikachu's grab range and forcing him into the air.

With that said, against a better opponent, things may have been different. Hard for me to say.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yeah...in this Matchup wifi isn't really a reliable source for information since neither character can play anywhere near as well online compared to offline.

My brother already posted, and i agree with everything he said. However, i'm gonna say say some things from the pikachu's perspective.

ZSS is a ***** to fight. Both characters basically HAVE to put the game where they want it, and since both characters have pretty good all-around mobility, this game will be shifting a lot if the skill between the players is even.

In the air, both players have an advantage depending on where they are according to their opponent. If pikachu is above ZSS, ZSS has the advantage because of her amazing uair. However, if you aren't careful pikachu can FF a nair or dair and put the position back to neutral. If pikachu is in front of ZSS (both facing each other) pikachu has the advantage. ZSS fair isn't very applicable in this MU unless comboing out of D-smash. Pikachu can either uair you (hitbox is quite large in front), fair (if you are close to the ground this will lead to some problems for the ZSS) or move towards you and nair (decent knockback and damage).

If pikachu is behind ZSS, we lose...hard. The only thing we can MAYBE do to escape is to FF airdodge to get back to the ground, in which case the ZSS should fall with a FF plasma whip (i think that is forward B).

If pikachu is below ZSS pikachu can have fun. Uair juggling and air chasing are what pikachu does best. Upon landing after the air ****, it is your best bet to bair. If we shield, we can't punish unless you didn't space correctly. If you did space correctly, the only thing we can MAYBE do is to FH a T-jolt, but that is all prediction and habits. If we know you are gonna use a ground attack, the T-jolt will work. However, if you know we are going to T-jolt, you can run and uair us, putting the pikachu back in an unfortunate position. Most of ZSS aerials are NOT safe on pikachu's shield. Against basically all of them except a tipped bair, we can run and grab or u-smash you. I have been able to punish Nick Riddle against every other thing. The only things that pikachu cannot punish are tipped plasma whip (assuming we don't run or anything to get to the sourspot or to PShield the weak hit) and tipped bair, so GL trying to keep us away

On the ground the fight is interesting. Both characters are fast and have a pretty good ground game, but pikachu has a major advantage. Being able to use our grabs. ZSS grab game is pretty non-existant against pikachu since we can always sidestep it (like most characters) and punish you with either our CG, the uair-footstool-QA combo, or a quick little FF fair-grab-pummel x2-d-throw-nair/u-tilt (assuming you aren't higher than 50%). So it is best for ZSS not to even try any grabs against pikachu. The reward DEFINITELY isn't worth the risk. Also, on the ground, pikachu is faster than ZSS. Yes you have more range, but with good Pshielding that can be eliminated real quick.

Killing potential is there for both chracters. Pikachu's kill moves are (in order) thunder 55% (blue hitbox), F-smash 90%, U-smash 120%, D-smash 140%(assuming you don't DI it) thunder 160%(bolt), U-tilt/F-tilt 165%. However, u-tilt and u-smash can be comboed into thunder at around 90% to kill, so be careful or you will get killed early.

Pikachu shouldn't be surviving longer than 130% against ZSS. If you hit us with a D-smash at 110%, we are dead if you bair us. However, since that is one of your safest aerials, you might have it diminished, as well as plasma whip. Try to keep at least one of those moves (plasma whip, bair, uair) fresh so you can kill. All of them kill pikachu around 130% fresh, even with good DI + momentum cancel.

Edgeguarding can help pikachu get a quick kill on ZSS. WIth the help of T-jolts and the lasting hitboxes of nair/dair, pikachu is a threat to ZSS when she is off the level. If you aren't careful, the T-jolt can gimp your jump, allowing the pikachu to grab the ledge which means a ZSS death. Also, pikachu can thunderguard (Wavebouncing a thunder off the level), which can basically stall time and prevent you from tethering to the ledge. If you are going to die from that, ZSS should get hit by it since it will bring them up. However, the pikachu isn't always trying to get a kill from edgeguarding. With teh extra %, we can set up for our kills or just knock you off the level against with one of our aerials.

Adversely, pikachu CAN NOT be edgeguarded by ZSS unless you read us 100% perfectly. The only thing that you guys can punish is our Skull bash, but pikachu won't need to because of our QA (one of the best recovering up-b's in the game). Hell, if you come off the level, the pikachu can hit you with a nair or uair to get you in a bad position, and the pikachu can QA back to safety.

So, i'm gonna break down the position of the characters and who has the advantage.

P air vs Z air = Z+ (you have more advantageous positions)
P air vs Z ground = P+
P ground vs Z air = even
P ground vs Z ground = even
P off the ledge vs Z edgeguarding = even (pikachu won't be edgeguarded)
P edgeguarding vs Z off the ledge = P+ (ZSS can be edgeguarded. Not well, but it can work)

As a ZSS player, you HAVE to get pikachu in the air in order to win. If you stay on the ground, you are going to lose if the pikachu is on the same skill level as you. Pikachu's damage racking will most likely come from T-jolts, CGs, and quick comboes. Pikachu wants the ZSS to stay on the ground while we can be SHing to produce quick damage/comboes with fair and uair. Basically, this match will come down to who can predict the opponent better and pick up their habits.

50:50 or 55:45 pikachu. Nothing else.

 

[Nefarious B]

Esam that's a really good write up, but can you explain in more depth the pair vs zground situation, is pikachu just going for fair cancel combos in that case?

 

[bigman40]

Yoshi mains are now discussing you guys. I would appreciate it if you guys contributed.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239502

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Esam that's a really good write up, but can you explain in more depth the pair vs zground situation, is pikachu just going for fair cancel combos in that case?

Not necessarily. Pikachu can do some nifty SH dair comboes, like SH dair (autocancels) to jab, nair, or grab. The fair comboes help yes, or we can just push you away with nair. Pikachu doesn't always have to go for comboes. Pikachu is a great baiting character, so we will use that also.

 

[PepsiMista]

You can Also Jab a TB.
it works for me.

 

[FadedImage]

Just wanna clear something up here. Pika is NOT as light as you think he is - with proper DI and momentum canceling, he isn't dying before 170%. Thats not an exaggeration, I'm dead serious. The Links just finished discussing him and he is quite literally almost as heavy as Link.

uhh, he falls slower than us and is lighter. At least, according to Silver's list...

I have been able to punish Nick Riddle against every other thing.

not trying to be mean, but this is anecdotal and void. I don't see how pikachu is any different than any other character that can't punish well spaced n-airs and crossover u-airs...

P off the ledge vs Z edgeguarding = even (pikachu won't be edgeguarded)

Just because a character can't be edgeguarded doesn't mean that it can be disadvantageous off the stage. Think Snake. He never traditionally edgeguards, but he can rack up a ridiculous amount of damage when you're on the ledge. From my experience as pikachu, get-up attack is garbage. Without that option, we only have two predictions to make, stand/jump, or roll. If we make a correct prediction, you eat at least 30% + combos (d-smashx2 + u-air/f-air).


Maybe I just haven't played a good enough pikachu, but from my experience as pikachu (my alt for Falco) he just doesn't seem to have the tools to keep up with ZSS.


btw, ESAM you have a sick pika (I watched a ****ton of vids when I first picked up pika, your pika stood out as one of the best d: )

 

[Ussi]

well.. we could all watch

ESAM vs Nick Riddle... but the earliest one i can find is in March sadly.. And its a 2 stock (pikachu wins) for both matches o.o;;

And before that in feburary o.o ESAM has more losing matches... so yea, watch them if you feel like it seeing a good pika vs a good ZSS

This is the most recent one (Assuming smart people can navigate youtube to the 2nd match)
Here's one in feb o.o; (matches are labeled by the stage they are on..)


Hope you don't mind ESAM or Nick Riddle that i'm using your vids for an example o.o;;





and @ that guy who says Pika lives forever... anyone can live forever with good DI

 

[sasook]

All I'm saying is, the Links just finished discussing Pika, and it was agreed on both sides (Link side from ArkiveZero, one of the top Links, Pika side from Stealth Raptor) that with good DI, Pika can survive to 170% easily. And Link may not have a lot going for him, but he's definitely not lacking in KO moves.

 

[Nefarious B]

Why does pika live so long though? Because of the skullbash momentum cancel?

I know pika has above average aerial movement, but it's not that good, im pretty sure we have better movement.

Edit: Ussi, also im gonna say Nick didn't look like his usual self in those vids. I know the better person tends to make the other look bad, but seriously there were some unnecessary self gimps in there that shouldn't happen, and won't happen normally.

 

[ph00tbag]

Not to offend, but Nick played terrible in those matches, and wasn't really playing to the match-up. He never used nair that I could see, not even to beat t-jolt, and only went intentionally for a tether recovery once when Pikachu was thundering. He overused Plasma Whip, too.

You do see one thing in those vids, though, that illustrates one of the issues I have with ESAM's analysis: ESAM doesn't consistently beat Nick from the air, which contradicts his write-up. If anything, they seem to go fifty/fifty. In fact, it's one of the areas where Nick plays the match-up really well.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I said it was ZSS advantage in the air dude, read back on my post and the final sum up of the positions. Also, that was a few months ago. We both got better. BTW, nick never uses nair against me...ever. It never works. Why would he nair a jolt when he can Pshield it? He never nairs against me...and I don't think he is supposed to...

 

[sasook]

I honestly dunno why Nef, I think Pika just has a really good momentum cancel. I mean it'd be questionable if Stealth was just saying for his word, but he played Arkive offline consistently and Arkive, well....he makes my DI look amateur.

Keep in mind Link usually KOs from the ground, and tends to stay in the middle of the stage, so maybe that might have something to do with it. We KO in the air and usually from the sides, or high up, so perhaps there Pika living percents drops a bit down to 140 or something.

 

[ph00tbag]

I said it was ZSS advantage in the air dude, read back on my post and the final sum up of the positions.

P air vs Z ground = P+

*shrug*

Also, that was a few months ago. We both got better. BTW, nick never uses nair against me...ever. It never works. Why would he nair a jolt when he can Pshield it? He never nairs against me...and I don't think he is supposed to...

He would use nair because it can hit you through the t-jolt before you could say "chu". PSing is good, too, but he has to do something with it instead of let you approach, which he does in the above video. It's also better against a full jumped t-jolt. I use nair against SH t-jolt because I'm doing something that either hits you or at least keeps you from approaching. Have you even tested this? I have, against two different Pikachu players, and it works.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I didn't understand which part you were talking about with the P air, so sorry about that. Neither of us were playing at our current level, so we both have improved in that Matchup.

Also, the pikachu shouldn't be T-jolting when you are close enough to hit them with anything. Hell, i'm pretty sure you can Uair through a t-jolt and hit the pikachu...

 

[ph00tbag]

Also, the pikachu shouldn't be T-jolting when you are close enough to hit them with anything.

Yes, because nair will go right through it. I'm glad we agree.

I'm just saying, there were parts in that video where Nick either let himself get hit by a t-jolt or tried to Plasma Whip through one where nair would have been a much better option. I'm saying this because nair is something of a shield in the air because of its special priority.

 

[Ussi]

ESAM, maybe you and your brother can play a few matches sometime and record it for us to watch the current skill level of this MU? Would be helpful and better than using the old videos i brought up of you too >.<

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Well yeah, we were actually planning on doing that today lol. Not now though, he is with his gf for now so we will play later. Don't worry about it.

 

[cba]

Can anyone see this post?

 

[cba]

Or this ?
HUH?

 

[TreK]

hai thur
We diddys are discussing the diddy-zss matchup, every little input would be welcome =]
btw, the link for the frame data in the ressource thread looks broken, is there any other ?

 

[Tien2500]

We actually just did this matchup. Look a few pages back and you can see all the discussion.