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Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

TheZeroSuit

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Updated the Pikachu Match-up Summary. Everyone check it out and mention anything that needs fixing.

We still need:

Suitpiece Strategy
Counter-picks

Let's take care of it and then get a match-up number. Right now it looks like 50:50 or 55:45 ZSS:pikachu.
 

[FBC] ESAM

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The best CP would be brinstar. If the pikachu bans that, go to luigi's mansion if its legal. Those are pikachu's 2 worst stages by a lot.
 

ph00tbag

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The best CP would be brinstar. If the pikachu bans that, go to luigi's mansion if its legal. Those are pikachu's 2 worst stages by a lot.
So in this case, Brinstar would probably be the best bet, since it's definitely a good ZSS stage. I don't think LM is all that great for ZSS, though.

Small would be a good idea, IMO. This would limit the advantage Pikachu has with recovery by making both characters die faster. Just make sure you don't die before Pikachu. @_@
 

[FBC] ESAM

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A good thing for pikachu on brinstar is that he can prolong the hitbox of his thunder with the aid of the little bubbles and the connecty thingies. Watch out for that.
 

ph00tbag

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A good thing for pikachu on brinstar is that he can prolong the hitbox of his thunder with the aid of the little bubbles and the connecty thingies. Watch out for that.
This can also do weird things if you're doing a move that moves you through these things. I was once watching LDPK play an MK on this stage, and he actually gimped the MK by thundering (I think?) a bubble while the MK Shuttle Looped through there, and the MK teleported to the top right of the screen, gliding towards the boundary.

It was trippy as hell.
 

[FBC] ESAM

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Rainbow is actually better for pikachu most likely. Norfair is also a pretty good pikachu stage, so i wouldn't go there too quick.
 

Ussi

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well RC is aerial based, and ZSS wins when both are in the air.. Wouldn't be too quick to dismiss RC as a comfortable CP. As in if you love that stage, go for it.


Norfair is pika camp zone.
 

ph00tbag

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Norfair is perfectly set up for Pikachu to camp t-jolt from above. He can also zip around all of those ledges like a mad man.

I feel like Pikachu's good recovery makes RC less than ideal, although the fact that ZSS beats him in the air helps. Pikachu won't get gimped on the top left corner, though. ZSS has problems with that area.
 
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OK, let's talk about this, because no one ever does:

ZSS has a grab-release chain similar to the one on MK. Grab, Pummel, release, dash and regrab. Not great, works for walk-offs and such at any percent, does like 10% across FD.

However like MK, you can small-step it and greatly extend the chain. Instead of dashing, just walk forward and grab again, or at appropriate percentages, start a Dash Attack Lock.
 
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zomgdoublepost

I suggest throwing this in the Even category and moving on to a new match-up. I also suggest perhaps doing more than one match-up at a time and taking them to their own threads from now on (that are not stickied, obviously). With the amount of activity here recently these discussions really shouldn't take more than a few days.

Anyway, the next discussions are going to be pretty polarizing because we have so many differing opinions on them, but it looks like Ice Climbers and Lucario are up next. I don't think it is necessary to explicitly discuss Kirby unless we aren't happy with the 60:40 ratio they just decided on a few weeks ago (personally I think it's probably 65:35, but that's just splitting hairs). If we discuss Kirby it should be quite short.

So IMO we should do Ice Climbers, Lucario, and Toon Link next.
 

Yankee

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zomgdoublepost

I suggest throwing this in the Even category and moving on to a new match-up. I also suggest perhaps doing more than one match-up at a time and taking them to their own threads from now on (that are not stickied, obviously). With the amount of activity here recently these discussions really shouldn't take more than a few days.

Anyway, the next discussions are going to be pretty polarizing because we have so many differing opinions on them, but it looks like Ice Climbers and Lucario are up next. I don't think it is necessary to explicitly discuss Kirby unless we aren't happy with the 60:40 ratio they just decided on a few weeks ago (personally I think it's probably 65:35, but that's just splitting hairs).

So IMO we should do Ice Climbers, Lucario, and Toon Link next.
Yes, please! Why this idea keeps getting turned down is beyond me. Its a staple of alot of other boards and lets us multitask. I'm on board for IC's and lucario next.
 

Nefarious B

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I duno I remember him saying something about it being one of our easiest matchups...

I can see it in our advantage definitely, but no that bad hahah.
 

sasook

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The reason other writeups are rarely used is because it's a very one-sided point of view. Meaning, (I'll use Link for example) if the Link boards covered us, their writeup would only be "this is what Link needs to do, this is what to avoid in general, etc." It doesn't go into the specifics of what ZSS should do, in the final result. I think that's why a lot of boards don't do it.
 

Yankee

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They really aren't bad at all. We make it hell for them to approach and stun only makes it easier to separate them. With the proper spacing we really shouldn't get grabbed much at all. The only place where IC's can really hurt us is up close, and that is only because of the grabs. We have them beat long and mid ranges as well as in the air and most likely off stage. Probably 50-60 in our favor like you guys said.
 

FadedImage

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Yes, please! Why this idea keeps getting turned down is beyond me.
I'm going to say this for the last time.

WE DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH CONTRIBUTORS TO SUSTAIN MULTIPLE THREADS

It's just plain messy to have tons of near empty threads floating around the boards when we can have a nice, concise, self-contained thread that has all the match-up information anyone can need.

Also, sasook is right, we need to cover these match-ups IN DEPTH from OUR PERSPECTIVE. Not to be elitist, but even this far in the metagame there are still VERY FEW people who know what ZSS is capable of. Plus, another character board is not gonna tell us how to win, they're gonna tell us how to not lose. Not to mention the ZSS unique advice, such as suitpieces and chaingrabs and such.
/rant

We'll do ICs next... I'll make sure to update before I head to Genesis.
 

Nefarious B

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I don't think we necessarily need multiple threads, but having this one move along once the conversation slows down would be good to keep it moving.

I personally feel like we've covered the high tiers pretty well, but the mid tiers are the ones that still pose a good threat and yet don't get talked about enough.
 

shlike

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personally i just go zelda against ic's i feel alot safer and i find it easier to space,

and plus if they are in the air and seperated it just takes one lightning kick or uair.

just my two cents
 

noradseven

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personally i just go zelda against ic's i feel alot safer and i find it easier to space,

and plus if they are in the air and seperated it just takes one lightning kick or uair.

just my two cents
I can see why I felt the same way until I got good at ohh lolol separate them **** nana with u-air.

But still it takes some time to get used too.

Watch out though cause IC up B has HUGE range, by range I mean distance in which nana can be from the popo
 

TheZeroSuit

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Ice Climbers Summary

ICE CLIMBERS


Strengths:
  • Unlike most characters, we can out range the blizzard -very- slightly with our side b.
  • ZSS is fast enough and combos well enough to ensure that once the climbers are separated, nana should die.
  • Well spaced bair, dtilt, and nair are safe on block.
  • Her speed helps her in avoiding non-grab kill moves, which will help her live longer.
  • Dsmash is very good for breaking the climbers up, and is difficult to punish.
Weaknesses:
  • Like any character, one grab is a stock.
  • Blizzard, especially desynched is tough pressure that can compete with plasma whip for mid range spacing.
  • ICs can camp ZSS with desynched ice blocks and blizzards, pushing her to approach
  • ICs uair is a very good tool to exploit Samus's blind spot underneath
Final Verdict: 60-40​
Matchup Advice:
  • General Strategy: Divide and conquer. Use your safe spacing moves to avoid being grabbed while breaking the climbers up. Once they are separated, combo and kill nana while avoiding Popo. Watch out for Popo's solo dthrow chain and you can easily kill him.

    Be patient and look for openings, this is the only way to beat the grab.

  • Exploiting Strengths:
    Our strong spacing game in conjunction with our speed is a great help in staying out of the Ice Climbers' poor grab ranges. Abuse spaced bair, nair, dsmash, and side b to do everything you can to separate them. When they are in the air or off stage, fair, bair, uair, up b, and side b, are effective tools in keeping them separate as you focus on comboing and gimping the mostly defenseless solo nana.

  • Minimizing Weaknesses:
    As usual Samus's close range game is out classed. Avoid this range at all costs, simply jump or run away and reset spacing. ICs are very slow, so if you ever feel you are in an unsafe position, escape and reset.

  • Suitpiece Strategy:
    Suitpieces are very useful in this matchup. Bouncing pieces are great for knocking nana around as she tries to keep up with popo. An effective strategy can be to use down thrown or z dropped pieces in a similar fashion to the way Snakes use grenades: they cover you from possible chain grabs and allow you to space without worrying about a PS grab death. Keep control of the pieces at all times, as the Ice Climbers can take control of two at once while still maintaining their spacing abilities, creating a very difficult to crack camp game.
  • Approach Alterations:
    Bair is your bread and butter, use it to poke and watch for openings to begin comboing. Nair works as a good substitute as well if canceled. Beware of pivot grabs, as they can mess up your spacing and lead to a grab. Side b should be used sparingly, as it is punishable if not spaced properly.

  • In the Air:
    Neither player wants to be above the other in this fight. ICs have a very good uair that is slightly disjointed, can combo into itself, and kill at medium high percents. Similarly, Samus has an amazing uair that works great to juggle the climbers, punishing their slow fall speed and predictable down airs and dodges. If ZS is off stage, the climbers won't risk venturing out much for fear of losing nana. Watch out for their attempts to smash, trap, or grab you upon your landing. If Ice Climbers are off stage, ZS should go all out in efforts to kill one or both of the climbers. Watch out for a fair spike and squall returns and she should be able to badly damage, if not kill them off the stage.

  • Attacks to Look for:
    • Blizzard
      Description: Good attack that rivals our side b for range, multi hit, is used for damaging, as well as camping to force approaches. If they are desynched, climbers will use them one after the other to effectively wall anyone who cannot outrange them. Can lead to grabs.
      How to Counter/Avoid: Punish with side b, look for openings to get underneath or above and punish. DI away if hit to avoid a followup grab.
    • Ice Blocks
      Description: Slow moving projectile that travels along the ground and can be used to camp at long range. Can be effectively desynched to create a wall of blocks on the ground, again forcing approaches.
      How to counter/avoid: Can be knocked away with most moves. Jumping on platforms or being in the air works well also.

  • How to Edgeguard:
    If the Climbers are recovering high, they can either squall or DI onto the stage. Work to push them back off so they will have to recover at a lower angle.

    If they recover at a medium height, use side bs, fairs, and bairs to push them further away to gimp. Target nana to gimp her and make popo easy prey, as when they are separated ICs lose their up b recovery.

    If they recover low, fairs work well to wall them, one hit is all it takes for a gimp usually. Their only option in this case is to Up B. Belay acts as a tether similarly to ours, except that if they are edge hogged nana will throw popo onto the stage instead or simply falling to their deathes. Edge hog at the right time to force them to go for an onstage recovery, and punish the lag by knocking popo (and nana if she survived) back off stage to repeat.

  • How to Recover:
    Ice Climbers generally won't chase you offstage for obvious reasons. They will generally try and disrupt you with ice blocks and attempt to ledge hog your tether. Use any normal mixups to avoid the hog, and beware that ice blocks fall right off the edge of the stage, perfect to knock you out of your pull in animation. Make sure to pull in fast or use down b to snap to the edge quickly. Avoid down bing onto the stage as it is very easily predicted and grabbed.
Counterpick Advice:
  • Stages to Counter-pick:
    • Brinstar, RC, Japes if you're comfortable, neutral: strike/ban FD, go to BF if possible
  • Stages to Avoid:
    • Flat stages with few or no platforms
Ice Climbers Contributors:
xxxx​
Ice Climbers' Thread

Old Information:
TheZeroSuit said:
From Snakeee:
Snakeee said:
Ice Climbers - They can chain grab you to oblivion. One grab could mean the loss of a stock as they can even take you from one side of the stage to the other and spike you. So, the answer is to space forward Bs and Paralyzer shots until you create an opening. Once she does, she can break them apart quite easily and her speed can overpower them. D smash can hit both climbers at once, and with proper spacing she can't get shield grabbed out of it. Her aerial game is good enough to hit both of them separately, and she can gimp Nana really well.
 

Snakeee

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personally i just go zelda against ic's i feel alot safer and i find it easier to space,

and plus if they are in the air and seperated it just takes one lightning kick or uair.

just my two cents
I find it much easier with Zelda too.

ZSS beats them, but it's only 60/40 at worst...that info is really old
 

FadedImage

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I think it's around 60:40 too.

if the ICs are really patient and good at desynch they can really shut down ZSS's long range options (blizzard kills stun shots and outranges side-b). but, stun is an excellent method for separating them. Plus, she's got the air mix-up to help prevent ICs from getting landing grabs.

great match-up advice guys, I'll tell the Zelda boards they have a good match-up against ICs... d:
 

FadedImage

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LLLOOOLLLLL

wow, IC mains... wow.

Okay I'll admit, ICs are a tough match-up without good knowledge, but I've played some gooood ICs... (Fly Amanita and Michael Hey), and even without experience I held my own.

The stuff that was said in that thread is pure and utter garbage. not trying to flame, so sorry if it sounds rude, but those IC posts are just bad.

Saying ZSS can't camp well against ICs, lol. Not saying that ICs can't camp back, cuz they can. That's what makes this match-up more annoying, who's got the patience?

bleh, too much stuff to address. I'll talk more about this match-up when I got free time.
 
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A few small things, because I don't have as much match-up experience here. ICs are pretty rare around here.

- If they powershield side-b, it hits nana anyway. At high percents, this is pretty useful. At low percents (below 30%) don't do it because Popo has a solo dthrow chaingrab on you that will give Nana enough time to come back to them.

- Nana is stupid and doesn't DI, so back air, side-b, and down-b kick will kill her very early. A dsmash after 90% on both of them should mean a dead Nana.

- Other than the chaingrab, Blizzard is the best thing they have in this match-up and it is annoying, but it's not everything. Stages with platforms are good because they give you other approach options than "run up to them."

- Jab, side-b, and Paralyzer Shot beat ice cubes and jab refreshes moves.

- Properly spaced, back air is safe on block, but be careful.
 

mountain_tiger

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The way I see it, this matchup is horrible if you don't know how it works, but nowhere near as bad if you do. Just like with everyone else, if they grab you, that's your stock gone. Therefore, you have to make better use of moves that are safe on block, and as a result good spacing is vital. As said before, Bair is safe if you space it properly, and IIRC Nair is too. Stun moves are risky, but a good way of separating them if you can get them in. Up B and USmash are also very useful for separating the two of them. And once you've done that, kill Nana ASAP, and once you've done that the match should be a cinch. Side B shouldn't be used as much here, because they can run, powershield and punish you with a grab, and that's something you really don't want. Desynched Blizzards and Ice Shots are also extremely annoying to get around, though not impossible by any means. Basically space attacks properly, kill Nana once they're separated, and DON'T GET GRABBED!

I'd say it's around 50:50 overall.
 

Hence

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I'm well-studied in this matchup because I play it often and live in Lain Land. Honestly, you're crazy if you think this matchup is an easy win. Here's my collaboration of information about Ice Climbers.


Rule #1: Ground yourself, children.
I'm not joking. A double jump can mean the difference between three stocks and two. Ice Climbers have a better, more damaging U-Air juggle than us.

Rule #2: Avoid using Jab/Plasma Whip and limit Flip Jump/Kick.
This may seem difficult, but IC's get a free stock after a PS'd Plasma Whip. Furthermore, our third jab can be shieldgrabbed.
The last thing you want to be is predictable and Flip Jump does just that. It creates a predictable trejectory, much like a roll. Side note: Blizzard stops the flip function of Flip Jump; express caution, especially at the ledge...

Rule #3: Get them offstage ASAP.
Squall Recovery and Attack getup are punishable with D-Smash and they seem to be the most frequently used options by IC mains. Their roll get up and normal getup are terrible without the use of desyncs. You can literally get a free D-Smash there too. It all comes down to prediction, but alllowing them to even grab the edge is where you messed up. Edgeguard them to hell if you plan on winning. No, I'm not joking. This matchup is tougher than you make it out to be, guys.

Rule #4: IC's Are Unplankable.
Flip Jump stall until the Blizzard stops. Be careful though, Ice Bergs can gimp your Flip Jump if you mess up your timing.

Rule #5: You have no safe approaches.
That's right, don't even try it. Your best approaching option is B-Air because of IC's terrible grab range, but even then... Well, let's just say that you have to be close enough to the IC's for B-Air to be viable.
If you are positive that you can catch the IC's while standing still, you may attempt a Plasma Whip approach. Keep in mind that you're taking a huge risk, though. The reward is a shot at killing Nana or a free Dash Attack or Jab when the climbers drop their shield. Even Blizzard outranges Plasma Whip though, so good luck catching them off guard unless you wave bounce it. Actually, that's a good idea that requires testing. Can we wavebounce a Plasma Whip through a fullhop blizzard?
I would expect IC's to be shielding a lot against us because not only will they not expect a ZSS to grab, but they can interrupt a grab with Nana/Popo's jab. Your best option is to fire an uncharged paralyzer in this position. It will stun Nana if they powershield and encourage them to drop their shield if they don't. Punish the dropped shield. :]

Rule #7: Juggling
Juggling completes itself with edgeguarding in how to beat IC's.
Don't allow them to land and don't allow yourself to get above them. When above IC's, you're running a very good chance of getting juggled or grabbed . You can head for the ledge, but our ledge game is useless there.
Plasma Wire is useless as well, simply because you don't want to risk spiking them to the ground for the reasons stated above. Take note that their D-Air has incredible range and sends them straight down, so it is tough to consistently U-Air before they D-Air. Often times one U-Air is enough to separate the climbers, but Popo isn't going to give you his woman without a fight. Practice, practice, practice.

Rule #8: Tilty Whaaaa-?
U-Tilt is risky upon being shielded, moreso in this matchup than others, obviously.
F-Tilt has a larger range than their grab range when spaced horizontally. The only thing they can do OOS before you can react again is possibly F-Tilt. They can PS though, so be careful.
D-Tilt is amazing here, especially when you're behind the climbers. It is your best bet at setting up a juggle and effectively killing Nana. Note that I'm not sure if double D-Tilt shield pressure can be pivot grabbed by the climbers, but I'll try to find out asap. I know you guys like to wait for the opponent to drop their shield.

Rule #9: Single Popo is no push over.
If you're not Zero Suit Samus. Popo has a D-Throw chaingrab at 0% that does work against ZSS. With that said, Flip Jump is always an option of the opponent doesn't buffer their grab. What makes single Popo so bad against ZSS is B-Air. Regardless of percentage, B-Air approaches to B-Air edge guarding will always beat him out. He can't recover low, so you can predict his single Ice Berg jump upon recovery and boost jump into Plasma Whip. If it misses, just punish the Squall Hammer he's about to use to recover with D-Smash. If you predict that he won't Squall, flip jump stall at the ledge and allow him to fall to his death. Simple.

Rule #10: Counterpicking and Camping.
Ban FD and platform camp when all else fails.
Strike Yoshi's Island (brawl). I believe it is our second worst neutral in this matchup. The tilting platform creates space for them to pressure you (with U-Airs) into dropping off or through to the stage. Even something as miniscule as that can open you up for a grab. Most Ice Climbers ban Brinstar, but both Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise should be easy wins for ZSS. If you win your neutral, you should win your set.
You can camp IC's, but only if there are platforms. Otherwise I wouldn't expect them to approach you. Ice Berg spam can cause you to become frustrated on flat stages (Seriously, ban FD). If you jump, you run the risk of getting caught in the air or being grabbed. If you shieldwalk forward, you run the risk of being grabbed. If you approach with Plasma Whip, you run the risk of being grabbed.
It's okay, I hate this matchup too.

Rule #11: **** Nana, don't get grabbed.
Nana plays melee in Brawl. Have fun.

40:60 Lain/Ambrose/Meep (good) Climbers
50:50 Ice Climbers
90:10 Popo
 

FadedImage

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why does everyone think PS'ing side-b results in a grab? So, they PS, drop shield, redash, and then dash grab? and we don't have enough time to run? I just don't see that being possible. Maybe if the side-b was poorly spaced, but that's just like any other move, badly spaced moves get punished!

avoiding all laggy moves is pretty important though, u-tilt, flipkick, etc. in most match-ups a grab is a grab, but here it's a stock.
 

Zero

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Regular Plasma Whip outspaces Blizzard. Shorthop wavebounce would definitely do it, + it's a safer option due to the move action taking place as you are moving, minimising the time spent near the ground.

Wavebounce plasma whip takes a lot of practice to space effectively, don't even think about using it without practicing the spacing religiously. If you wavebounce into them at normal distance, you land directly in front of them. Goodbye stock.
 
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What about stutter step side b?

And Zero_ is correct, with really good spacing you can out-range blizzard with side-b. It seems to me like this is a dealbreaker in the match-up. If you can space that consistently, it becomes much, much harder for them to camp you at mid-range and suddenly the have to approach.
 

DZhou

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Doesn't blizzard come out faster though? The ranges of Blizz and Whip are pretty close IIRC.
 
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