Official SWF Tier List v8

[Grim Tuesday]

All the Sheik theory-craft she got after Japan became relevant reminds me of that one match that was posted earlier of YB's Samus vs. a Diddy Kong, where he plays perfectly and lands a bajillion hits and still ends up losing.

That is Sheik in a nutshell.

Uh how is it not an AT? You have to use different inputs than what you would use to do a normal DA. It's not mentioned in the manual or any tutorial, is only known by competitive players, and is probably the most 'advanced' way to use a DA outside of DACUSing and BDACUSing.

You can just dash and press A on the earliest frame, there is no way to make a dash-attack happen faster than that as far as I'm aware?

 

[Dekillsage]

You can just dash and press A on the earliest frame, there is no way to make a dash-attack happen faster than that as far as I'm aware?

I don't think of it as an AT but I know that presses forward hard -> cstick down gets your dash attack to come out instantly. Can't do that with the A button as you get yolo fsmash. Or maybe you can, but cstick down is easier.

 

[ぱみゅ]

stuff

To everyone else, what you all missed about this guy is that he comes from the future, maybe he knows better than any of us.

 

[Shaya]

Sheik can be safe on shield.
Her fair nair and bair spaced appropriately on the top of their shields or at the maximum horizontal reach of their shield isn't shield grabbable. It isn't "simple" to punish ftilt. Overall though, beyond ftilt, Sheik is a worse version of Fox in this game.

 

[Dekillsage]

Sheik can be safe on shield.
Her fair nair and bair spaced appropriately on the top of their shields or at the maximum horizontal reach of their shield isn't shield grabbable. It isn't "simple" to punish ftilt. Overall though, beyond ftilt, Sheik is a worse version of Fox in this game.

It's always weird to read someone say a properly spaced move is safe on shield when I counter hit them with utilt for free for throwing out a move. Feels fraudulent.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

To everyone else, what you all missed about this guy is that he comes from the future, maybe he knows better than any of us.

I like how the Brawl tier list is doing a better job at ignoring him than the Melee tier list did.

 

[Shaya]

It's always weird to read someone say a properly spaced move is safe on shield when I counter hit them with utilt for free for throwing out a move. Feels fraudulent.

And this is where the worse version of Fox comes in.
Fastest dash to shield in the game. Relatively fast sh to fast fall and a large full hop / double jump, but without a vertical stall (Shine).
That third missing tool cuts things down hard on Sheik, but she can still abuse those things to bait through just about any attack in the game and punish.

 

[The Hooded Informant]

You know what? I don't even care about the SSBB and SSBM Tiers anymore. I'll just go to the SSB64 Discussion (lacking a...well...updated tier list).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't think of it as an AT but I know that presses forward hard -> cstick down gets your dash attack to come out instantly. Can't do that with the A button as you get yolo fsmash. Or maybe you can, but cstick down is easier.

I didn't think of that, fair enough, I stand corrected haha.

I always dash attack with the c-stick as a preference thing, so I wasn't thinking.

 

[infiniteV115]

I always dash attack with C-stick down because I'm used to the dash attack lock with ZSS.

 

[Shaya]

C-stick down allows you to buffer everything.

It's great when you keep trying to buffer dash attacks out of grab release on MK with Marth and keep downsmashing though.
(Still win the match though)

 

[Fire!]

Let the fun ensue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REqrJe_YCl4

 

[FourStar]

Idk about you guys but i still think pikachu could be an A tier character....

 

[infiniteV115]

Assuming we're using the same tier groupings as now, yeah I could see him being A-. As for A+, I doubt it.

 

[FourStar]

Assuming we're using the same tier groupings as now, yeah I could see him being A-. As for A+, I doubt it.

sorry i meant to add the minus. but yea. not only does he have a superb aerial game, he is the only characters who's matchup is even with MK

 

[Shaya]

In the case of Pikachu going even with MK, empirically that would indicate many characters going "even" with MK.
(Not necessarily disagreeing).

 

[FourStar]

In the case of Pikachu going even with MK, empirically that would indicate many characters going "even" with MK.
(Not necessarily disagreeing).

I guess but i feel like pikachu is not getting the attention he should be getting.... he is much better than people really think he is.

 

[Espy Rose]

I actually think Pikachu is worse than people give him credit for.

 

[FourStar]

I actually think Pikachu is worse than people give him credit for.

LOL in what way?

 

[Espy Rose]

All ways.

 

[| Big D |]

Pikachu is broken if you know the secret technique.

Spoiler

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Dthrow > fsmash

It has been passed down and thus written in an ancient language.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I feel Pikachu is like Wario in the sense he can make up his weaknesses with sheer mobility.
I mean, it doesn't have a glaring abusable weakness like Wario does, but Pikachu can't reliably kill, and depends on catching someone by surprise with Nair or UTilt/Smash>Thunder to do so.
It can only condition and mindgame people, and has the mobility, projectyles and burst range to succeed, but move-by-move, Pikachu is not that great.
Also, its Chaingrab is pretty much useless in Top Tier outside of like Falco and Snake.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Pikachu is broken if you know the secret technique.

Spoiler

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John Madden

It has been passed down and thus written in an ancient language.

i think i see a problem here

 

[FredFuchs]

i'm still wondering why people think pikachu is overrated to begin with. i think if anyone is overrated in that general area, it's wario. neither that or he's just cursed with people who don't play him effectively (with exceptions of course)

 

[-LzR-]

Let the fun ensue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REqrJe_YCl4

I don't know why, but reading comments on videos like this is just so much fun.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Forward > down c stick is the fastest possible way to dash attack.

 

[Jabejazz]

We all know and agree Pikachu is A tier if you're ESAM.
Otherwise he's S(hit) tier.

Pikachu is broken if you know the secret technique.

Spoiler

Spoiler

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It has been passed down and thus written in an ancient language.

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Holy ****.

 

[Cassio]

In the case of Pikachu going even with MK, empirically that would indicate many characters going "even" with MK.
(Not necessarily disagreeing).

Hey now Mr. Marth main, since when did yall care about empircal evidence . But for reals reading Armada's post sort of shifted my view on the matter. I do think pika has the best MU vs MK except ICs on certain stages.

Pika is definitely underrated, but I think its mostly because people dont really understand the character very well. I also believe a lot of characters opinions of how well they do vs pika heavily leans on the fact that many pikachu players dont know how to use their own character.

Also peach is meh...I'm in the same region as two of the countries best peachs, the issue I find with her vs a character like sonic is that while she has some pretty powerful tools shes also pretty linear. Her combos and strings might make her seem like she has a lot of variety but it seems more like a facade. Being smart with a character like sonic can take you further imo, and taking armada's words into account Id place Sonic above her.

 

[da K.I.D.]

dont listen to espy, pikachu is madd good. its definitely not going to happen every single time, but thunder combos that kill at 80 are going to hit people forever, and people are going to to eat jolts forever.

the stuff that pikachu does isnt technically flawless or without holes, but thats never going to stop any of it from working and beating people.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I've never found Pikachu particularly exceptional, ESAM or otherwise.

And no one has an even match-up vs. MK, and to think that you do would be to ignore the incredible difference in MU experience that is always present.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Pikachu is fine, not great. His matchups are overrated, particularly MK. When ESAM has a recent record (say over a year) vs MK over 30% with Pikachu we'll talk >_>

 

[FourStar]

Hey now Mr. Marth main, since when did yall care about empircal evidence . But for reals reading Armada's post sort of shifted my view on the matter. I do think pika has the best MU vs MK except ICs on certain stages.

Pika is definitely underrated, but I think its mostly because people dont really understand the character very well. I also believe a lot of characters opinions of how well they do vs pika heavily leans on the fact that many pikachu players dont know how to use their own character.

Also peach is meh...I'm in the same region as two of the countries best peachs, the issue I find with her vs a character like sonic is that while she has some pretty powerful tools shes also pretty linear. Her combos and strings might make her seem like she has a lot of variety but it seems more like a facade. Being smart with a character like sonic can take you further imo, and taking armada's words into account Id place Sonic above her.

You are absolutely right in everything you just said. NO ONE other than good pikachu players understand how good he is. not saying i'm good or anything but pikachu is sooo good at KOing at low percentages. And his recovery is unbelievable.

ESAM is the only good pikachu everyone thinks about but has anyone heard of Anther? watch him. another good pikachu.

 

[infiniteV115]

Didn't Anther quit back in like 2010 or something XD
The good Pikachus now outside of ESAM are Z, maybe Anther if he still plays, Pika4Life (Europe), and I guess the others would be Captain L and Lamb from Canada (BC and NS respectively)

 

[FourStar]

Didn't Anther quit back in like 2010 or something XD
The good Pikachus now outside of ESAM are Z, maybe Anther if he still plays, Pika4Life (Europe), and I guess the others would be Captain L and Lamb from Canada (BC and NS respectively)

I heard Anther plays a little now but still he's ****ing good. and the pikas u listed are reasons why i play pika

 

[Dekillsage]

Pikachu is good. A little overrated but still good. He's a character that beats some of the top tiers but isn't top tier himself. That's it really

 

[Espy Rose]

dont listen to espy, pikachu is madd good. its definitely not going to happen every single time, but thunder combos that kill at 80 are going to hit people forever, and people are going to to eat jolts forever.

the stuff that pikachu does isnt technically flawless or without holes, but thats never going to stop any of it from working and beating people.

Okay fine.
Pikachu looks good to people who don't understand him.
Sad that you're one of those people. You had Pika2 for years.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Thats why I know hes amazing. You thinking otherwise just shows how inferior k prime is in comparison.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Why is Pikachu not good though?

 

[Espy Rose]

Whatever you say, kid.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'm just as old as you....