Official SWF Tier List v8

[Tesh]

bowser punishes alot more consistenly than ganondorf

ganondorf can legitimately read you and be unable to capitalize at all. Bowsers grab + up b covers all close range options. He just gets thrown around for days when he is wrong, which happens to ganon even when he is right.

Up b does 13 damage on the first hit, at low percents it can do 16 damage because opponents dont fly far enough for the 2nd hit to whiff.

its funny that GR to down b is listed when the move itself doesnt even work

 

[Cassio]

Nothing specifically, just a bunch of in-between MUs that tipped in Pika's favor. I think his MK MU is overrated, but he's not the only one lol.

The hit you're talking about comes out on frame 21... I've seen it used effectively and know it's legit and all, but to say "I can stutter-step fsmash on a ftilt/dtilt hard read so I outrange MK" sounds like too much of a niche situation to be considered "outranging" a character overall. Y'know, a lot of characters can do the same thing, with moves faster than 21 frames, yet they don't actually "outrange" MK, just have the option to do so in a few specific situations.

Well I only ask because usually when its brought up I will typically see people say 'pikachu or such and such MU is overrated' and I dont get a chance to see the reasoning. This isnt just you, but youre the only one thats responding, lol.

And yeah its definitely situational, which is the reason I said it needed to be used in the right sort of way and not assertively. But the situation is commonly mentioned enough to be relevant, the most frequent strategy I see stated and occasionally used is to space tilts on pikachu outside his range, and pikachus fsmash makes such a linear strategy unreliable. In essence its presence is more important than its use, so in reality you wont see it too often against players familiar with the MU because the MK wont place himself in those situations, but what really matters is that it prevents both characters from safely moving in on each other.

I can imagine that there are a couple characters that outrange MK but lose on mobility and frame data (for reference, Pikas fsmash is longer than Marths and barely outranges MK's attacks so its not tooo common), but I cant imagine MK would rely on spacing tilts against anyone that does so.

If Pikachu's fsmash was safe on block like ZSS', it'd become much more relevant as an outrange-MK's-tilts tool. But even then it's still an RPS situation at best for Pikachu XD

Its actually safe on block on many characters that have mediocre traction and/or a running speeds.

 

[FourStar]

I still think MK's weird mathups include chu, olimar, and IC's those are just weird for MK players

 

[infiniteV115]

Its actually safe on block on many characters that have mediocre traction and/or a running speeds.

Not against MK (I've seen it get dash grabbed OoS numerous times iirc), which is what we were talking about...right?

 

[Tesh]

wouldnt shield drop dash attack/grab work for everyone cept maybe luigi?

 

[Cassio]

Well typically your standard pikachu player doesnt bother to actually space their fsmash for the tip, and the pushback is the same or close to it regardless. So if pika fsmashes and youre close to him its an easy punish, but if hes spacing with the move and it hits your shield then those attributes definitely matter. Kinda comes back to pikas slow development, but no ones really bothered to space with the tip of his fsmash until recently. Its also part of the reason (along with pikas other spacing tools) I think characters like Mario, Yoshi, Luigi, and some others have things rougher than is stated in the MU chart. You dont wanna be outzoned by pika.

And yes V115, I only meant it as an addendum to pikas fsmash being unsafe on shield overall.

 

[FourStar]

Pika gets punished hard so you gotta play smart with him and against him

 

[Seagull Joe]

loses to no one. Don't be stupid. If I was to actually make a matchup chart it would look like this (Top level of play taken into account):

+4:
+3:
+2:
+1:
0:

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

Toon Link needs to move down. He ain't even that good

 

[Sunnysunny]

loses to no one. Don't be stupid. If I was to actually make a matchup chart it would look like this (Top level of play taken into account):

+1

Wahaha~
I certainly wish this were true, but alas, it's most definitely -2 and our worst MU by far.

I get your point though. At this point in time there's no such thing as an even MU against him.


Actually, I gotta question.
If players were to know the ins-and-outs of there characters and perform every tech in there arsenal can you see any character going even with metaknight in the future? For example if pikachu players were able to perfect there QAC lock infinites and set ups on him.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Top play (Junebug/Trela) indicates to me it is a -1 matchup. I'm not just saying this because M2k has lost to both players. Dat aura son.

 

[FourStar]

if only someone can dethrone meta knight.....

 

[Sunnysunny]

I swear on my liiiiiiife it ain't.
And I ain't just say'in that because Colorado's afraid of bats and banned the guy~

Lucario only really wins when MK players frequently commit to unsafe options and play over aggressively. His insane ground mobility makes it hard to space against him properly and lets him weave in and out of our attack range at will. With our below average move start up trying to punish anything the guy does is damn near impossible. Ahh. Well ya know. He's even less punishable then he usually is. On top of that, he has similar range to us with far better start up. Our floatiness and subpar recovery doesn't really help either when it comes to recovering. I've seen the way top MK's play against lucario, and they overcommit much more then they have to in high-pressure situations. If they just play patiently at saaaay around MK's f-tilt range it becomes hard for us to get anything started.


I know it doesn't play out that way though.
Aura makes a big ****ing difference.

But I swear were winning due to MU inexperience most the time. I guess it is a -1 until they do start playing it right, but maaaaaaaan, top cario's are winning much more then they should be.

It's funny. When a lucario's at high aura it does not just change Lucario. It seems like it ****s with a lot of players psychologically and they end up cracking outta fear.

 

[Espy Rose]

But the question is how much safer is Bowser at high levels of play against top tier characters. The only practical difference I can think of is that you have to be a bit more cautious on Bowser's shield due to upb. In every other regard, I don't see his additional safety really making much difference in terms of how easily he is gimped, how easily he is juggled, how easily his landings are punished, how unsafe his approach is (they both can basically only approach horizontally, the only difference is that Bowser has a good aerial grab) how easy it is to force commitments from him etc.

It makes a huge difference. At top level play, that extra insurance Bowser has from the fact that he has upB oos, a jab that reaches deceptively far, and a grab that leads into decent options + follow ups give him so much more leverage in an average situation vs. someone like Ganondorf, whose safest options against aggression are, realistically, a grab that has pitiful range.

On the flipside, being aggressive with either character pretty much gives you the same general result. Bowser's options are just a bit more plentiful and safe.

The fact that a player has to have that additional caution on Bowser's shield alone gives him more weight in a RPS set up.

I mean really, you just compare the two in any situation, from camping, to going all out aggro, and even putting them both in settings when they're getting edgeguarded, juggled, or comboed, Bowser at worst evens out with how screwed he is compared to Ganon.

There's just a big difference, regardless of the fact that they both suck.

 

[Ishiey]

loses to no one. Don't be stupid. If I was to actually make a matchup chart it would look like this (Top level of play taken into account):

+2:

Told you Glad you finally understand. What made you change your mind?

Gonna have to agree with Sunnysunny about Lucario btw.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Told you Glad you finally understand. What made you change your mind?

Gonna have to agree with Sunnysunny about Lucario btw.

My mind has not been changed. I still think the matchup is -1 and stand by that decision, but people will probably ***** and disagree with me.

I'll actually change it back to -1. My matches against every has always been close. Not a -2. The only players that are/have been good vs from what I have seen are Semifer, me, Kain, and Choice. I do not remember if JJ played any s consistently.

 

[Sunnysunny]

My mind has not been changed. I still think the matchup is -1 and stand by that decision.

So long as you don't banish me to the shadow realm were good~

 

[Ishiey]

My mind has not been changed. I still think the matchup is -1 and stand by that decision, but people will probably ***** and disagree with me.

I'll actually change it back to -1. My matches against every has always been close. Not a -2. The only players that are/have been good vs from what I have seen are Semifer, me, Kain, and Choice. I do not remember if JJ played any s consistently.

Then why did you put Wolf in MK's +2 group? >___________>

 

[Seagull Joe]

Then why did you put Wolf in MK's +2 group? >___________>

To humor you .

It is -2 if Halberd/Delfino/Frigate are all legal though. Auto loss round...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario sucks majorly against MK.

 

[FourStar]

i mean who actually stands a chance against meta knight?

 

[Espy Rose]

Another Meta Knight.

 

[Osennecho]

Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff>all. SSSSSSS tier after all. Sorry Shiny Mew2 if I forgot a few S's.

 

[Dekillsage]

lol'd at wolf vs mk being -1 and snake vs mk being -2.

I mean snake vs mk is -2 but wolf vs mk NOOOOOOOPE

 

[ShadowLink84]

You are absolutely right in everything you just said. NO ONE other than good pikachu players understand how good he is.

Pretty major sign of bias.
People who main the character well tend to think the better of their character. It is not often that you run into a main who thinks the worst of their character.
Furthermore to what Dre said, it depends on the character.
There will always be periods in which a character dominates, and determining whether or not it is a the result of the player being that much better is important, as they may be covering up for the flaws of their character.

I do think Pika has the ability to win a national, I just believe it is more difficult in a competitive environment which is heavily influenced by MK.

 

[Angiance]

S+ tier: Pikachu

S tier: Meta Knight

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You are absolutely right in everything you just said. NO ONE other than good pikachu players understand how good he is

I mean, should we just take your word for it?

'cuz I'm not sure that works for me. Pikachu players have been talking about how good Pikachu is for years. There's been so much theorycraft, and only limited success. Your character's best player uses a secondary that happens to currently be the second best character in the game and loses over 70% of the time in a match-up he claims is even. It doesn't look even on paper and it isn't even in real life, so in what reality is this match-up good and in what reality is Pikachu awesome?

I don't think Pikachu is bad per se, but I mean I'll be frank with you: gimmick or not, ZSS gets top 3 in a region dominated by the world's best MKs (and won Apex 2013 btw). That's just one player, but it's one player with no secondary, something Pikachu can't claim, and Pikachu also can't claim the same amount of non-ESAM success that ZSS can claim with non-Salem success. Pikachu is still sitting above ZSS on the tier list. Realistically I'm not sure how much higher Pikachu can go. He's probably already too high because ESAM is very loud and opinionated about everything.

 

[Dekillsage]

Nah supermodel pikachu beats snake that's why he's higher

 

[Cassio]

Non-ESAM success still has Anther success. Old, but I think youre definitely looking past the lengthy amounts of consistency Pikas had a top level, better than marth and better than ZSS. Also when ESAM picked up ICs he went from placing top 8 fairly consistently to placing top 4. Im sure Salem would see the same success if he were to cover his bad MU's like olimar as well. Also unlike Salem, ESAM doesnt have the luxury of living in a region where he can practice against top level diddys, olimars, MK, and ICs, so he has to manage with what he has.

In regards to meta knight, Im not sure how you came to it not being even through your analysis? Thats a legitimate question, anytime I ask people like to argue about what pikachus match-ups should be but then conventiently skip on the details. Id also like to know what background you have to make that sort of judgement particularly on paper. The issue I tend to see is that people dont really understand pikachu, and then make their own judgements based on what they do know. So while I'm sure it can seem bias when pika mains talk well of their character, the judgements are considerably more accurate than coming from those who do not.

Also I've definitely seen Salem use secondaries seriously, vs Nairo vs ADHD and vs ESAM.


By the way this goes back a bit, but for the discussion on pikas fsmash and its safety here two examples of close-range and long-range

Close:
http://youtu.be/ZDIelLkl8wk?t=8m14s
Long:
http://youtu.be/ZDIelLkl8wk?t=21m48s

 

[Dekillsage]

Yo for real Salems might be the best in ny/nj

He should drop zss and go more

 

[Flayl]

its funny that GR to down b is listed when the move itself doesnt even work

Can you clarify what you mean? The reason Down B isn't included in the KO moves list is because of how unreliable it is, is that what you were talking about? I think it should still be done like once per set or more against poorer players

 

[Tesh]

first hit doesn't combo into the 2nd hit so it would be one of the worst thing you could try imo. it doesn't even kill THAT early where you should be risking it (except when u can ledge cancel it).

 

[Espy Rose]

You cannot use Anther's results for Pikachu at this point. It's so outdated and practically irrelevant.
It'd be like using Malcolm's results for Sonic, which would easily put him farther above Peach than he already belongs.

 

[Cassio]

I think old results matter in two ways, to demonstrate consistency and another is to demonstrate change. Of course new results still matter the most, but you cant measure consistency or change unless you look at results from the past. Anthers results are relevant only insofar as they show Pikas consistency.

 

[Espy Rose]

I'd normally accept that, but we're not just talking about a year or two here.

 

[pidgezero_one]

LIKE THIS POST FOR NO REASON

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I was the first everyone else is a poser.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Pikachu is obviously the best character in the game.

I mean, just look at him:

Then again, Jigglypuff makes a pretty convincing case as well:

 

[-LzR-]

And with that I'm out for the day.

 

[xXGeeXx]

Why is DK higher than Sonic? : [ </3