Official SWF Tier List v8

[The Brazilian Afro]

Brawl is back :D (Actually happy I get to play a good version of Lucario and the invincible shine of Wolf)

 

[infiniteV115]

I made a ZSS thing imo

 

[Janno]

can u explain why you made olimar a worse match up than falco?

 

[Deleted member]

I made a ZSS thing imo

View attachment 98234

Isn't ZSS an outright terrible MU for Fox? Otherwise most of this seems accurate, especially since I main Dedede ;-;

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I made a ZSS thing imo

View attachment 98234

Are you sure about Mario?

Also I feel like Puff and Falcon are about equal difficulty, maybe even a bit easier for Puff. Neutral seems just as hard for both characters but at least Puff can edgeguard her.

 

[infiniteV115]

can u explain why you made olimar a worse match up than falco?

The Falco MU has been overrated since forever. People used to think that MU was 7:3 for Falco and some still do, and I have no idea why. That MU is even to me (I'm 1-0 with Shugo and 1-1 with DEHF), Salem also thinks it's even iirc. ZSS can run circles around Falco and she can deal with all his strongest tools (laser zoning + close-range game basically). Not saying she counters them or anything, but it's not like she doesn't have answers. When Falco is above ZSS or offstage he's in a lot of trouble. Falco sets the pace of the match the entire time and should generally win neutral more, in exchange for taking harder punishes when he loses neutral and having a harder time getting the kill

Isn't ZSS an outright terrible MU for Fox? Otherwise most of this seems accurate, especially since I main Dedede ;-;

Not at all. The MU is pretty evenish, if I had to give a slight edge to anyone it would be ZSS because of the dsmash chain she gets on Fox. It does take Fox from 0-100ish which sounds huge, but realistically Fox is very hard to catch with dsmash and the first dsmash has to hit Fox before about 35 or 40 or so (that's just an estimate, idk the exact numbers and it might be even sooner), or else it'll have too much knockback for the lock to work and Fox will be able to jump out. Fox camps ZSS fairly well and kills her really early

 

[Janno]

The Falco MU has been overrated since forever. People used to think that MU was 7:3 for Falco and some still do, and I have no idea why. That MU is even to me (I'm 1-0 with Shugo and 1-1 with DEHF), Salem also thinks it's even iirc. ZSS can run circles around Falco and she can deal with all his strongest tools (laser zoning + close-range game basically). Not saying she counters them or anything, but it's not like she doesn't have answers. When Falco is above ZSS or offstage he's in a lot of trouble. Falco sets the pace of the match the entire time and should generally win neutral more, in exchange for taking harder punishes when he loses neutral and having a harder time getting the kill

that still doesnt quite answer my question
falco has stronger and equally fast close up moves than zss
his camping can be quite troublesome
reflector can screw your item game really badly
these are negative points in the match up

what is negative vs olimar? you can get rid of his pikmin really easy, you have great approach options vs him, you can jab him to death
i dont see how this mu could be worse than falco (i agree tho that falco vs zss is definitely not 7:3)

 

[Z'zgashi]

I made a ZSS thing imo

View attachment 98234

Ayyyy, I like it, in fact, I liked it so much, I just did one for my opinion on Yoshi's MUs. It might be a little off since I havent played Brawl in a long time, but here ya go:

Spoiler

Oh, and a bonus:

Spoiler

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

How are you guys making these neat graphics? I wanna make one.

 

[Deleted member]

How are you guys making these neat graphics? I wanna make one.

Here you go, mate.

Gonna post an MU chart for Dedede later.

 

[infiniteV115]

that still doesnt quite answer my question
falco has stronger and equally fast close up moves than zss
his camping can be quite troublesome
reflector can screw your item game really badly
these are negative points in the match up

what is negative vs olimar? you can get rid of his pikmin really easy, you have great approach options vs him, you can jab him to death
i dont see how this mu could be worse than falco (i agree tho that falco vs zss is definitely not 7:3)

tbh it doesn't sound like you know any more about the MU than the next guy but I'll respond anyway

Spoiler: close range against Falco

Spoiler: camping

Spoiler: reflecting suitpieces

Spoiler: why it's even

It doesn't sound like you know much about the Olimar MU either, the only thing you said that was accurate is that I can get rid of pikmin easily. What sucks about this MU is that ZSS' approach options suck.

Spoiler: approaching Oli

Spoiler: close range against Oli

k I could write more but I feel like I've written enough lol, I can get into other aspects of the Oli MU if you want but I think I made my point

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Here you go, mate.

Gonna post an MU chart for Dedede later.

tyvm

Here's a Puff MU chart I threw together between classes. I think it's clear that I'm an optimist.

6 Hours later Edit: Made one for Falco too, more based on my personal feelings in the MU than anything really objective.

I used to try to argue for Falco vs Pikachu as -1, but gave up on trying to convince people on that years ago. You win this time, popular opinion!

 

[Lukingordex]

I made a ZSS thing imo

View attachment 98234

could you explain the ness vs zss mu? I'm kinda surprised seeing ness being able to go even with her

 

[Z'zgashi]

charts

Only thing I disagree with is Yoshi in the Falco one. Tbh, I usually swapped to Bowser against Falco when I didnt just go MK since Bowser did better against Falco than Yoshi did. Yoshi kinda gets **** on by Falco since he cant shield, Egg camping is NOTHING compared to Lasers, and Falco never has to approach through pivot grab/egg lay. Yoshi is a total anti approach character with bad approach options himself, and Falco NEVER has to approach and forces Yoshi to try and approach with nothing but bair, nair, kind of jab, and without a shield. Bowser at least has long range jabs/ftilt, invincibility on up b, a fast grab, and a shield, so Bowser was always better for the match up imo.

Tl;dr, Yoshi prob has a -3 against Falco.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Only thing I disagree with is Yoshi in the Falco one. Tbh, I usually swapped to Bowser against Falco when I didnt just go MK since Bowser did better against Falco than Yoshi did. Yoshi kinda gets **** on by Falco since he cant shield, Egg camping is NOTHING compared to Lasers, and Falco never has to approach through pivot grab/egg lay. Yoshi is a total anti approach character with bad approach options himself, and Falco NEVER has to approach and forces Yoshi to try and approach with nothing but bair, nair, kind of jab, and without a shield. Bowser at least has long range jabs/ftilt, invincibility on up b, a fast grab, and a shield, so Bowser was always better for the match up imo.

Tl;dr, Yoshi prob has a -3 against Falco.

When I saw that you had quoted me I assumed you were going to say I had underestimated Yoshi XD

Looking at my chart again though I'm not actually sure why I didn't put Yoshi at -3

 

[infiniteV115]

could you explain the ness vs zss mu? I'm kinda surprised seeing ness being able to go even with her

Ness is really safe at neutral and can space out nearly all of ZSS' options with fair. He doesn't really get juggled cause he's floaty and has good aerial mobility and his aerials and other landing options aren't bad. She also can't usually risk going for dsmash landing traps cause if Ness reads that he can heal off of it for free. Ness also has pretty good damage output, can be hard to catch/challenge in the air, and he has a bunch of great kill options and bthrow kills ZSS around 110%

Ness' biggest weaknesses in most MUs are the grab release shenanigans and his gimpable recovery, but these barely exist against ZSS. She can sorta edgeguard him but she's not particularly good at edgeguarding because of her weird recovery; she might get like 1 or 2 gimps in a set but that's it. ZSS shouldn't really be looking for grabs much cause they're very risky if she misses (Ness can prob kill her at like 70 or so with PKT2, or just go for like a tipper bat), and even if she gets it she doesn't really get any great followups out of ground release (jab, tilts or dash attack. Either dtilt to set up a juggle, or dash attack lock at the right percents).

If anyone has the advantage it's ZSS, mostly because she CAN get a fair bit a damage (if not a kill) with a good read offstage. But I don't think she wins by much

 

[xDD-Master]

I dont necessarely consider the first group as disadvantages, since you can basically win just as often as you might lose, but it's not fun at all to play against them, and you might still wanna consider playing a different match-up, and it might be a bad match up for certain Snake playstyles. I dont think Snake really loses any match up except for maybe a 45-55 against some of mentioned group.

E: ICs is basically the reverse situation of the first group. ICs could be in the even group as well.

 

[Narigo1]

Just did a Ike matchup chart

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Mario isnt really even fast though, like he's literally middle of the ground stat wise in every category and has bad frame data/range.

Of all things that are bad about Mario, frame data isn’t one of them.

I dont necessarely consider the first group as disadvantages, since you can basically win just as often as you might lose, but it's not fun at all to play against them, and you might still wanna consider playing a different match-up, and it might be a bad match up for certain Snake playstyles. I dont think Snake really loses any match up except for maybe a 45-55 against some of mentioned group.

E: ICs is basically the reverse situation of the first group. ICs could be in the even group as well.

Why is Samus even?

 

[KVLTofMetal]

Just did a Ike matchup chart

View attachment 137951

Why is Falco a solid disadvantage?

 

[megel]

ma miss that smashboard thing i'm coming back for brawl at goml

 

[ぱみゅ]

It is fantastic that TO Joe still loves Brawl so much and presents to us more events.

I would love to go but my economy isn't great and travelling out of the country sounds near impossible right now, so I'll limit myself to wish luck to anyone going!

 

[KVLTofMetal]

I really do miss the Smashboards discussion format for things. With Brawl picking back up again I'm 110% ready to return here and talk about Brawl again

 

[Ganonmainbrawl]

My tier list for real

S
Spaghetti
The others a (diglet)

 

[SuperDoom1]

We need to save Brawl so we can get a good tier list that has Sonic where he deserves: upper-mid. (Seriously, this tier list is five years old.)
Also, did anyone else notice the entire bottom tier is filled with veterans?

 

[Pro895YT]

Snake in A-? talk about baiting

 

[Lattenzo]

man. wolf was already good in brawl, but if its anything that pm has shown, all u need is some buffs and a more melee-like engine to make wolf broken. and thats what ultimate is. and to top it all off theres no chaingrabs or ledge hogging, which wolf struggled with in brawl. and theres no more crazy broken characters that we know of now so i think wolf should be crazy in ultimate.

 

[Luigisama]

man. wolf was already good in brawl, but if its anything that pm has shown, all u need is some buffs and a more melee-like engine to make wolf broken. and thats what ultimate is. and to top it all off theres no chaingrabs or ledge hogging, which wolf struggled with in brawl. and theres no more crazy broken characters that we know of now so i think wolf should be crazy in ultimate.

How do you cite melee mechanics, but not want chaingrabs and ledge hogging? Melee has chaingrabs and ledge hogging. Brawl isn't the only one lol.