The Brazilian Afro
Smash Cadet
Brawl is back :D (Actually happy I get to play a good version of Lucario and the invincible shine of Wolf)
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Official SWF Tier List v8
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
I made a ZSS thing imo
D
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Isn't ZSS an outright terrible MU for Fox? Otherwise most of this seems accurate, especially since I main Dedede ;-;
Are you sure about Mario?
Also I feel like Puff and Falcon are about equal difficulty, maybe even a bit easier for Puff. Neutral seems just as hard for both characters but at least Puff can edgeguard her.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
The Falco MU has been overrated since forever. People used to think that MU was 7:3 for Falco and some still do, and I have no idea why. That MU is even to me (I'm 1-0 with Shugo and 1-1 with DEHF), Salem also thinks it's even iirc. ZSS can run circles around Falco and she can deal with all his strongest tools (laser zoning + close-range game basically). Not saying she counters them or anything, but it's not like she doesn't have answers. When Falco is above ZSS or offstage he's in a lot of trouble. Falco sets the pace of the match the entire time and should generally win neutral more, in exchange for taking harder punishes when he loses neutral and having a harder time getting the kill
Not at all. The MU is pretty evenish, if I had to give a slight edge to anyone it would be ZSS because of the dsmash chain she gets on Fox. It does take Fox from 0-100ish which sounds huge, but realistically Fox is very hard to catch with dsmash and the first dsmash has to hit Fox before about 35 or 40 or so (that's just an estimate, idk the exact numbers and it might be even sooner), or else it'll have too much knockback for the lock to work and Fox will be able to jump out. Fox camps ZSS fairly well and kills her really early
that still doesnt quite answer my question
falco has stronger and equally fast close up moves than zss
his camping can be quite troublesome
reflector can screw your item game really badly
these are negative points in the match up
what is negative vs olimar? you can get rid of his pikmin really easy, you have great approach options vs him, you can jab him to death
i dont see how this mu could be worse than falco (i agree tho that falco vs zss is definitely not 7:3)
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Ayyyy, I like it, in fact, I liked it so much, I just did one for my opinion on Yoshi's MUs. It might be a little off since I havent played Brawl in a long time, but here ya go:
Oh, and a bonus:
How are you guys making these neat graphics? I wanna make one.
D
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infiniteV115
Smash Hero
tbh it doesn't sound like you know any more about the MU than the next guy but I'll respond anyway
Falco wins at close range, yes, but ZSS has options to minimize/eliminate the disadvantage here. If Falco goes for rapid jab ZSS can SDI through and gets an guaranteed utilt/dtilt/uair (I consistently do this, usually just go for utilt)
Any time ZSS gets jabbed if she holds down and away, she will SDI away and as soon as Falco drops the jab she will be crawling away and can then react to whatever Falco goes for. If he goes for jab2 --> grab ZSS will be too far for grab to reach, and now he also has to worry about getting hit by dtilt which puts him in a juggle position.
He wins here because his grab is better and his jab is better. That doesn't put the whole MU into his advantage.
Any time ZSS gets jabbed if she holds down and away, she will SDI away and as soon as Falco drops the jab she will be crawling away and can then react to whatever Falco goes for. If he goes for jab2 --> grab ZSS will be too far for grab to reach, and now he also has to worry about getting hit by dtilt which puts him in a juggle position.
He wins here because his grab is better and his jab is better. That doesn't put the whole MU into his advantage.
Camping forces ZSS to approach but she can crawl under lasers and after she reaches a certain range (roughly ZSS sideB length away), if Falco commits to a short hop ZSS can run in and punish before his laser comes out (running sh uair/fair, running usmash, dash attack). Falco can phantasm and it can be hard to react to, but if ZSS is ready for it she can short hop and bair him for it. Alternatively she can just shield it and then chase him. Again Falco has the advantage here, but it's small.
Reflector does not screw up item game really badly at all lmao. Reflector is a huge commitment against a ZSS with suitpieces because of how much end lag it has. It can be outspaced and punished by a sideB by breversing/wavebouncing it towards Falco. It can be baited with glidetoss suitpiece up/down and then punish him with one of many moves (dtilt, utilt, grab, dsmash). ZSS can safely stay on the other side of the stage with a suitpiece and Falco can't short hop, because if he does I can instantly glidetoss to close the gap and now I'm directly below him (especially risky if Falco commits to a laser during the short hop). Alternatively I can just set up a wall with 1-2 suitpieces and grab the third one and approach Falco with short hops, and now anything Falco does is pretty risky cause it can be punished by a suitpiece. Falco may do better against suitpieces most characters and his reflector can be useful, but he still has the disadvantage.
Falco wins at close range and at neutral because he forces ZSS to approach, but ZSS can deal with these things and even if she makes a mistake she doesn't take too much damage. The MU is even because ZSS has harder punishes because of her better damage output; when ZSS gets Falco in the air she can utilt OoS against any landing aerials (except nair), she can dsmash airdodges, or she can juggle him with uair and her other great aerials. She also has more room for creativity because of how mobile she is, and how immobile Falco is when he's in the air. When Falco is offstage he has to worry about dying, or taking damage upon recovery. When Falco puts ZSS in the air she hardly has to worry about getting juggled or landing; what she has to worry about is how she's gonna win neutral again after she lands, which again is in Falco's favour but is 100% manageable. When ZSS is offstage she shouldn't get hit by anything except for laser or maybe a reflector, but she usually takes 0% and doesn't need to worry about dying. If Falco goes offstage to try to edgeguard a recovering ZSS he has a much higher risk of dying than ZSS does.
It doesn't sound like you know much about the Olimar MU either, the only thing you said that was accurate is that I can get rid of pikmin easily. What sucks about this MU is that ZSS' approach options suck.
SH nair doesn't work at all as an approach because 1 Oli usmash can both clank with it and hit ZSS (I know it doesn't sound like that makes sense but trust me, it's how ZSS' nair works. The game doesn't register it as part of ZSS' body and it clanks with everything that isn't transcendent, so any hitbox that clanks with it can still hit ZSS). Bair can sorta work but the problem is that if ZSS commits to a sh near a grounded Olimar, she has to worry about him grabbing/pivot grabbing/fsmashing the landing, him running under ZSS and just usmashing, or him just challenging her in the air with a rising fair.
Against most chars ZSS wants to approach by closing the gap til she's at mid range, and from there she uses her good movement to approach unpredictably. Normally she can't rely on getting to close-range cause she sucks there, mainly cause her grab is so slow. In this MU she actually has to rely on getting to close-range, because Oli's too strong at midrange. His pikmin have grab armor so if ZSS misspaces a dsmash she can get grabbed for it, even if she dsmashes the pikmin (unless it dies ofc). Oli's fsmash and grab are both really safe which makes ZSS' life hard when she's at mid range. ZSS' midrange options (dsmash, sideB, grab, laser) are all pretty slow to start, so she has to commit pretty hard at mid range while Olimar can safely throw out fsmashes and grabs. I have to stay a bit outside of mid-range and space with tipper sideBs while also knocking off any pikmin that latch onto me, and occasionally going for ballsy dash grabs or dash attacks.
Against most chars ZSS wants to approach by closing the gap til she's at mid range, and from there she uses her good movement to approach unpredictably. Normally she can't rely on getting to close-range cause she sucks there, mainly cause her grab is so slow. In this MU she actually has to rely on getting to close-range, because Oli's too strong at midrange. His pikmin have grab armor so if ZSS misspaces a dsmash she can get grabbed for it, even if she dsmashes the pikmin (unless it dies ofc). Oli's fsmash and grab are both really safe which makes ZSS' life hard when she's at mid range. ZSS' midrange options (dsmash, sideB, grab, laser) are all pretty slow to start, so she has to commit pretty hard at mid range while Olimar can safely throw out fsmashes and grabs. I have to stay a bit outside of mid-range and space with tipper sideBs while also knocking off any pikmin that latch onto me, and occasionally going for ballsy dash grabs or dash attacks.
When ZSS gets up close the only redeeming quality she has is that her jab combo works, and that's only if Olimar doesn't SDI down + shield (if he does that he can powershield jab3, Dabuz did it to me). It also helps that Olimar's OoS options are kinda slow (grab and usmash), but they're still strong options so ZSS has to be careful. She usually needs to have good jab cancel mixups, and also usually needs to get behind Oli's shield to be totally safe. If ZSS hits Oli's shield with jab2 he can usmash OoS and if ZSS is in front of him she'll get hit by it before jab3 comes out. If he shields jab3 he can just shieldgrab her. ZSS needs to use jab mixups to set up dsmash on shield, spaced dtilt on shield, occasional grabs, and to bait Oli into an OoS option that ZSS can punish. The fact that ZSS has to rely on Olimar shielding, and getting behind his shield, is what makes the neutral so hard for ZSS, and it's the main reason she loses the MU
k I could write more but I feel like I've written enough lol, I can get into other aspects of the Oli MU if you want but I think I made my point
tyvm
Here's a Puff MU chart I threw together between classes. I think it's clear that I'm an optimist.
6 Hours later Edit: Made one for Falco too, more based on my personal feelings in the MU than anything really objective.
I used to try to argue for Falco vs Pikachu as -1, but gave up on trying to convince people on that years ago. You win this time, popular opinion!
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Lukingordex
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could you explain the ness vs zss mu? I'm kinda surprised seeing ness being able to go even with her
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Only thing I disagree with is Yoshi in the Falco one. Tbh, I usually swapped to Bowser against Falco
Tl;dr, Yoshi prob has a -3 against Falco.
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When I saw that you had quoted me I assumed you were going to say I had underestimated Yoshi XD
Looking at my chart again though I'm not actually sure why I didn't put Yoshi at -3
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Ness is really safe at neutral and can space out nearly all of ZSS' options with fair. He doesn't really get juggled cause he's floaty and has good aerial mobility and his aerials and other landing options aren't bad. She also can't usually risk going for dsmash landing traps cause if Ness reads that he can heal off of it for free. Ness also has pretty good damage output, can be hard to catch/challenge in the air, and he has a bunch of great kill options and bthrow kills ZSS around 110%
Ness' biggest weaknesses in most MUs are the grab release shenanigans and his gimpable recovery, but these barely exist against ZSS. She can sorta edgeguard him but she's not particularly good at edgeguarding because of her weird recovery; she might get like 1 or 2 gimps in a set but that's it. ZSS shouldn't really be looking for grabs much cause they're very risky if she misses (Ness can prob kill her at like 70 or so with PKT2, or just go for like a tipper bat), and even if she gets it she doesn't really get any great followups out of ground release (jab, tilts or dash attack. Either dtilt to set up a juggle, or dash attack lock at the right percents).
If anyone has the advantage it's ZSS, mostly because she CAN get a fair bit a damage (if not a kill) with a good read offstage. But I don't think she wins by much
xDD-Master
Smash Champion
I dont necessarely consider the first group as disadvantages, since you can basically win just as often as you might lose, but it's not fun at all to play against them, and you might still wanna consider playing a different match-up, and it might be a bad match up for certain Snake playstyles. I dont think Snake really loses any match up except for maybe a 45-55 against some of mentioned group.
E: ICs is basically the reverse situation of the first group. ICs could be in the even group as well.
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Skeeter Mania
Smash Ace
Of all things that are bad about Mario, frame data isn’t one of them.
Why is Samus even?
I dont necessarely consider the first group as disadvantages, since you can basically win just as often as you might lose, but it's not fun at all to play against them, and you might still wanna consider playing a different match-up, and it might be a bad match up for certain Snake playstyles. I dont think Snake really loses any match up except for maybe a 45-55 against some of mentioned group.
E: ICs is basically the reverse situation of the first group. ICs could be in the even group as well.
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KVLTofMetal
Smash Lord
Why is Falco a solid disadvantage?
megel
Smash Apprentice
ma miss that smashboard thing i'm coming back for brawl at goml
ぱみゅ
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It is fantastic that TO Joe still loves Brawl so much and presents to us more events.
I would love to go but my economy isn't great and travelling out of the country sounds near impossible right now, so I'll limit myself to wish luck to anyone going!
I would love to go but my economy isn't great and travelling out of the country sounds near impossible right now, so I'll limit myself to wish luck to anyone going!
KVLTofMetal
Smash Lord
I really do miss the Smashboards discussion format for things. With Brawl picking back up again I'm 110% ready to return here and talk about Brawl again
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Ganonmainbrawl
Smash Rookie
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My tier list for real
S
Spaghetti
The others a(diglet)
S
Spaghetti
The others a
(diglet)
SuperDoom1
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We need to save Brawl so we can get a good tier list that has Sonic where he deserves: upper-mid. (Seriously, this tier list is five years old.)
Also, did anyone else notice the entire bottom tier is filled with veterans?
Also, did anyone else notice the entire bottom tier is filled with veterans?
Pro895YT
Smash Rookie
Snake in A-? talk about baiting
Lattenzo
Smash Cadet
man. wolf was already good in brawl, but if its anything that pm has shown, all u need is some buffs and a more melee-like engine to make wolf broken. and thats what ultimate is. and to top it all off theres no chaingrabs or ledge hogging, which wolf struggled with in brawl. and theres no more crazy broken characters that we know of now so i think wolf should be crazy in ultimate.
How do you cite melee mechanics, but not want chaingrabs and ledge hogging? Melee has chaingrabs and ledge hogging. Brawl isn't the only one lol.