Official SWF Tier List v8

[Luco]

Shhh. don't give people reason to play characters with crawls.
They're all over powered.

All Ganon really needs is a crawl.

 

[Sunnysunny]

I'd rather players work on their fundamentals than their gimmicks.

 

[Luco]

So if you had to choose, what layout would you make the next tier list? I know it got a lot of slack in the first few pages but what would you actually change it to?

Personally I loved v7's layout with a few minor changes but that could just be because i'm used to it.

 

[Blacknight99923]

going back to pikachu, yeah he has weird MU's against high tier characters but overall he has very good MU's and trust me the reason why pika is so overlooked is due to the fact like he's seen as a spam character. but good players don't do that. i mean that's from my point of view but obviously there's more. i just dont wanna get too in to it

I don't think people who have been playing this game for over half a decade overlook something because bad players use the character sub-optimally . Pikachu probably isn't considered higher because of his overall match up spread, although I'm sure there are many people here who think the character is potentially underrated.


And in all honesty if you"just don't wanna get too in to it" I don't think you're really going to convince people that pikachu is deserving of a raise. You haven't given us any information to consider as to why the community may have an erroneous opinion about pikachu.

All Ganon really needs is a crawl.

and a move set.

 

[Jabejazz]

And in all honesty if you"just don't wanna get too in to it" I don't think you're really going to convince people that pikachu is deserving of a raise. You haven't given us any information to consider as to why the community may have an erroneous opinion about pikachu.

It's called blind fanboyism.

 

[Desu~]

I don't know since it's just me.
But can't you make a good meta with Pikachu's quick attack cancel?
Cuz you know, if you can follow up with other quick attacks, wouldn't they aim at swiftness in a battle over priorities?
His moveset looks pretty decent too, can make some follow ups, no?

 

[Sunnysunny]

If I remember correctly, yea.
Esam did the calculations and at a certain percent quick attack true combos into n-air.

I dunno about QACing everywhere though. I ain't a pika main, but it seems like something that should be used sparingly to catch your opponent off guard.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

QACing everywhere was how Anther played Pikachu until 2010, but it became easy to exploit when people realized how much bigger it makes PIkachu's hurtbox.

 

[Luco]

QACing everywhere was how Anther played Pikachu until 2010, but it became easy to exploit when people realized how much bigger it makes PIkachu's hurtbox.

My brother was using QAC on SV on the ground and I was Lucas on the platform that was going above him.

I used DA on top of the platform and it hit him. @.@

 

[FourStar]

QACing everywhere was how Anther played Pikachu until 2010, but it became easy to exploit when people realized how much bigger it makes PIkachu's hurtbox.

now QACing is punished so damn easily.....

I don't think people who have been playing this game for over half a decade overlook something because bad players use the character sub-optimally . Pikachu probably isn't considered higher because of his overall match up spread, although I'm sure there are many people here who think the character is potentially underrated.


And in all honesty if you"just don't wanna get too in to it" I don't think you're really going to convince people that pikachu is deserving of a raise. You haven't given us any information to consider as to why the community may have an erroneous opinion about pikachu.
.

First off pikachu aerials are absolutely devestating. they deal so much damage (excluding uair) and they combo into things very well.
Pikachu has IMO the best recovery in the game. plus his quick attack can combo into aerials.
Pikachu's mobility is pretty good although there is better
Pikachu's smashes deal a lot of damage and are good combo finishers and great great at edgeguarding (like forward smash and up smash)
Pika has the only even MU with MK
don't believe anything i said? watch ESAM on youtube

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Best recovery in the game? Metaknight says hi and then jumps a few more times glides and then drill rushes to the other side of the stage just to laugh at you.

 

[DeLux]

Pikachu can combo into smash attacks?

If you mean like at CG percents, being able to combo at low percents is pretty universal across the good characters

 

[Sunnysunny]

D-smash I guess.
and u-smash at low percents outta throws n stuff.

 

[Desu~]

Well technically speaking, Pit is said to have the best recovery in the game.
Not Pikachu.

D-smash I guess.
and u-smash at low percents outta throws n stuff.

Problem is, it gets SDI easily. Well... kinda.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Technically speaking

what

Pit's recovery isn't even top 5 w/e

 

[Sunnysunny]

Nah, you're right.
That moves super easy to DI.

Just saying, yea, it's easy to combo things into it.

 

[Desu~]

For real?
Strange, i heard Pit had the best recovery.
Oh well.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Dsmash at lower percents require SDI. At higher percents, it only requires ASDI (hold the control stick in a direction).

First off pikachu aerials are absolutely devestating. they deal so much damage (excluding uair) and they combo into things very well.
Pikachu has IMO the best recovery in the game. plus his quick attack can combo into aerials.
Pikachu's mobility is pretty good although there is better
Pikachu's smashes deal a lot of damage and are good combo finishers and great great at edgeguarding (like forward smash and up smash)
Pika has the only even MU with MK

I like Uair. Its damage is pretty pathetic, but its rather useful. Really similar to MK's Uair. Nair is pretty decent and many characters wish they had a sex kick type of move. Those are extremely useful. I am not sure about Fair. The long duration is useful for a forward attacking move. Dair too is useful for a strong strong back. Bair is.... eh.
^Conclusion: Pikachu has pretty good neutrals in the air.

I could potentially agree with one of the best recoveries in the game in a particular sense. MK has the most options, but they are all rather straight forward and telegraphed (UpB is just hard to react too). Look across Smash64, Melee, and Brawl, and Pikachus' quick attack is rather hard to pin down. With it's distance, it can get pikachu to the upper platforms, to the ledge, or deep on stage. Not many characters have that freedom and still fewer can hope to cover all the angles Pika has from all of them.
^Conclusion: Pika has some pretty good recovery options.

I don't see how smashes are important in anything really. Generally, they are pretty poor compared to tilt options which are a nice medium between start-up/cool down time, duration, range, and knockback. Unless you are olimar where smashes are superior to any tilt really.

Having a good dashing speed is pretty important in a lot of aspects. Allows you to get in on opponents how they commit to an option.

 

[DeLux]

MK Wario Pikachu ??? ??? Pit

Fill me in SFP

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

If you are going to be judging recovery, you should probably start having some criteria to allow for some objective debate rather than this subjective stuff.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Jigglybutt and rob maybe~?

Only 2 I can think of.


Hey, i'll give Pit this, he's probably the second best planker in the game.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic the Hedgehog.

 

[Desu~]

If you are going to be judging recovery, you should probably start having some criteria to allow for some objective debate rather than this subjective stuff.

Well then let's say this.
He does go a decent distance when using it.

 

[Shaya]

If you want to talk about pretty bad recoveries that are over rated.

SONICS IS ONE OF THEM.
Stop not telling people that you are going to air dodge after you up b. Scum.

Like, snake and G&W will at least throw in b-reverses or aerials.
Sonic will just air dodge.

#FREE

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I don't really see total distance for recovery as the most important feature. having multiple different options that allow for mix ups and safety are what really matter. For example ddd can cover huge amounts of distance with his recovery but I would not exactly call it good.

 

[Espy Rose]

Shaya, you just explained why you're free.

 

[ぱみゅ]

ITT: your Recovery Tiers
SS: MK
S: Wario
A+: Pikachu
A-: Jigglypuff, ROB, Samus, Pit
B+: ZSS, Diddy, Mr. Game and Watch, Snake, Peach
B-: Yoshi, Sonic, Marth, Lucas, Both Climbers, Donkey Kong
[add a gap here]
C-: Lucario, Toon Link, Sheik, Kirby, Charizard
[idk, at this point I stopped caring]
D: Falco, Wolf, Fox, King DeDeDe, Charizard, Ike, Ness
F: Captain Falcon, Zelda, Bowser, Ganondorf, Squirtle, Mario, Link
Derp: Olimar, Ivysaur, Sopo

Thinking about it, the more I advanced in the list, the less I cared.[/color[

 

[Luco]

Sonic the Hedgehog.

Good but not fantastic - his upB is linear in some cases. It's like saying that Snake has that level of recovery - but he doesn't because it's easy to punish and in some situations he gets back on stage with 100%+ damage from being offstage.

Personally I feel as though Luigi has a better recovery. Or ROB. Or maybe even Jiggly/kirbs.

His neutral B is good but I still feel as though it can get punished and isn't quite as good as the afore-mentioned chars.

But Sonic definitely has a great recovery.

Just my opinion, of course.

@Kyo: I'd put Olimar a tier or two up, then have 'Nolimar' in his place.

Also you put Charizard in twice.

And i'd argue kirby/TL are at the bottom of B-

 

[Shaya]

Well, I mean, unlike G&W, I don't have to respect an area the size of battlefield flipped vertically when Sonic's trying to recover.

 

[Espy Rose]

Still proving my point.

 

[Shaya]

Hey, I didn't say that Sonic has less recovery options than G&W.
Just I'm going to try and kill you off stage.
Generally you don't try that against g-dubs.
You also know that G-dubs Up-b will ledge snap while Sonic's generally does not.

 

[Luco]

Just a quick question (and i'd like to clarify I DID try to look this one up but google gave me nothing and the search results had irrelevant answers!), Ledge snapping is when your char uses upB to the ledge and grabs the ledge instead of continuing with their momentum of upB if it was supposed to go above the ledge?

@Jabejazz: Exactly. It's why I was using snake as my example when it comes to good recoveries gone bad.

 

[Sunnysunny]

^^^^
A-yup.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

ITT: your Recovery Tiers
SS: MK
S: Wario
A+: Pikachu
A-: Jigglypuff, ROB, Samus, Pit
B+: ZSS, Diddy, Mr. Game and Watch, Snake, Peach
B-: Yoshi, Sonic, Marth, Lucas, Both Climbers, Donkey Kong
[add a gap here]
C-: Lucario, Toon Link, Sheik, Kirby, Charizard
[idk, at this point I stopped caring]
D: Falco, Wolf, Fox, King DeDeDe, Charizard, Ike, Ness
F: Captain Falcon, Zelda, Bowser, Ganondorf, Squirtle, Mario, Link
Derp: Olimar, Ivysaur, Sopo

Thinking about it, the more I advanced in the list, the less I cared.[/color[

I find it odd that Donkey Kong has a have a better recovery than the Spacie Trio when you consider the fact that DK is purely horizontal and can be intercepted at the cost of trading lightly and no vertical recovery. The spacies have more options in the form of fast horizontal recovery to either the ledge, the stage, or platforms (as easy to intercept, but the speed offers more site of landing, also they have higher jumps).

 

[Luco]

^^^^
A-yup.

Cool.

Yep, then I agree with Shaya - I feel that a recovery with ledge-snapping* is better than an equal one (in terms of vertical recovery) without.

*Obviously the type of recovery which ledge snaps depending on your distance from the ledge when you upB.

Also I feel DK's upB is under-rated when it comes to his vertical recovery. It doesn't go very far but it's not non-existent - his upB actually does pull him up to some extent.

That said, it's tough for me to decide when looking at him and the spacies in that regard, but then you have to remember that DK's upB is wayyyyyy safer. The spacies can literally get edge-guarded out of upB before they go anywhere and that's the way other chars are taught to edgeguard against them.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Well, to me they have a wider range of options and I also consider the ability to actually get down from the air above the stage as part of recovery. DK has two options 2nd Jump and UpB. With UpB fixed to a single direction horizontal. Vertical does exist, but its not enough to really drive on about. Spacies get the omni-directional recovery which is useful in a number of situations such as odd stages like Rainbow Cruise or Delfino. They can stall with it as well which does have its uses. Yes, in the conventional situation of being stuck below the stage ledge they should die if they have to UpB. But, the UpB is more versatile in other situations. Additionally, the sideB is pretty staple to their recovery. As Falco, I can 2nd jump and Phantasm to the upper platform which slower characters cannot handle extremely well. If the opponents is going for the ledge, I can sideB over them and get on the stage.

Again, variety is the superiority of the spacie recovery. Also, I think with having a smaller frame they can better abuse FF air dodge into the ground. They can stall (except falco) with Shine or SideB directly over an opponent as a mix-up and it be a quick escape. Their recovery is just over all very versatile and I just found it odd for them to be considered so low. If anything, fewer characters have the ability to handle all the possible trajectories the spacies can chalk up and eventually find one safe route out of a bad situation. DK and others around him in that list cannot claim as much, imo.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I find it odd that Donkey Kong has a have a better recovery than the Spacie Trio when you consider the fact that DK is purely horizontal and can be intercepted at the cost of trading lightly and no vertical recovery. The spacies have more options in the form of fast horizontal recovery to either the ledge, the stage, or platforms (as easy to intercept, but the speed offers more site of landing, also they have higher jumps).

Speed for the Space Trio doesn't work when you can react to them stopping in the air for a second and punish them. They might snap the ledge, but then they all still have to go back to the stage, so they are still at a bad position.
Maybe Wolf's is better than I listed it, I honestly don't remember how Wolf's recovery works.

Donkey Kong's however is not that easy to intercept (or I forgot how ro do it), or intercept and take a huge advantage from it, DK can just DI well and retry, as a very dangerous move is hard to land... From what I can remember, if I'm worng at this he'll drop in my list, A LOT.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Here is another way to think about it. Yes, if spacies get to the ledge they are stuck on the ledge. But, they have the potential to get onto the stage as well depending upon the stage (BF for example is pretty nice to them with that upper platform). DK cannot do this at all. He is stuck going to the ledge every single time. If he goes above stage, more characters can trade with his recovery with harder hitting moves (its just a matter of timing). Otherwise, characters can still interrupt his recovery with trading spikes for example (matter of timing and spacing). Oh, and spacies can cancel sideB as well. Another depth of options for the opponent to consider and have to try covering.

Sheik is another odd one I find up there too above them. All of Sheik's recovery can be rather forced bit-by-bit by simply ledge grabbing and not really risking much of anything. Every character has a 2nd jump, so I'll ignore that for the time being. This leaves Sheik with two unique options, chain, and UpB. Lets see, Chain is removed by merely being in the way of her chain to the ledge. You don't even have to grab the ledge to prevent her from getting the max length out of it. Its very difficult accomplish this at earlier percents, but if you are closer to the ledge or she is at a higher percent this is more viable and more routine at higher percents. Then, ledge grabbing also prevents her from being able to grab the ledge and is forced like lucario onto the stage (however, lucario can actually direct his UpB into a wall cling/jump).
At early percents, Sheik is going to be having a ton of ledge time, but as the stock percentages increase this won't be happening as much and you can start to abuse her fairly linear and limited recovery options.

Spacies recovery is not spectacular, but it certainly seems better than D. I think on your list around B-/C- would be good. The only reason its probably not better is because of the huge risk associated with either a huge read on the opponents part or a mistake on the players part for not paying attention to the opponents spacing. Oh, and I think Peach's is pretty bad once you consider the fact she is very slow in the air, her air dodge sucks (2nd jump height bad), and this makes her an easy target to juggle around. Float and parasol gets her distance, but she is very frail in between that time and little can she do to prevent the opponent from simply out waiting her.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Now that you mention them, Sheik and Peach are a bit out of place, yes, I'll concede.

IMO, spacies' recoveries are really weak, waiting for them at a certain distance (about half of the Full Phantasm/Illusion lenght, no matter the height) means covering pretty much all of their options (granted your character has good OOS options), even if they manage to land (ex. on a BF platform).

Anyway, don't look too deep into my list, I didn't put much effort on it. lol
I mean, just look at it, Charizard is listed twice!

 

[Cassio]

QACing everywhere was how Anther played Pikachu until 2010, but it became easy to exploit when people realized how much bigger it makes Pikachu's hurtbox.

Pikachus hitbox only becomes bigger during two portions, at its intermission and at the end. The problem is resolved without much difficulty by NOT being near your opponent during these phases unless you can confirm a punish. ESAM's traditionally had a strong bias against QA, and never really tried to develop its abilities. Anther seemed to understand its properties better, but has quit and no ones really tried to integrate it in their gameplay as successfully as he did.

During the part that QA actually travels, Pika's hurtbox is pretty small as well as having a hitbox with electric priority and is very fast. On the ground ive seen it clash with smash attacks and itll completely beat out non transcendent projectiles. This on top of the fact that QA doesnt require much commitment on its placement making it an extremely valuable tool for damage and baiting, yet unfortunately very underdeveloped as well.

Also I cant say I know the special details of warios recovery, but id be pretty surprised if it was better than pikas. Pika can use his jolts to create space in the area he will be travelling, and its even more useful against the one character that mightve normally caused more issues because of his transcendent aerials that basically will only allow him to move out of the jolts pathway. Other characters may have an easier time dealing with jolt, but arent as capable offstage. This on top of pikas falling speed, high priority aerials, skull bash and quick attack make it a hard recovering to interfere with. One issue is if pika doesnt have his jump he might take damage trying to make it back to stage, but he can usually at least get there.