Official SWF Tier List v8

[Shaya]

Marth runs off stage while you're recovering as Pikachu.
What do?

His name is Shaya and he wants to kill you. With a neutral air.

Pika's recovery is pretty good though. I'd place it somewhere between Marth's and Toon Links. #PikaForLowTier

For extra credibility:
#SmashVilleOnly (not really though)

The thing about Pika's recovery is a general lack of invincibility coupled with over bodily exposure in his recovery moves. Yes they come with hitboxes. The angles of Up-B are fantastic but you can't freely use that "everywhere" to recover. Having the ledge grabbed is a major bummer scenario for Pika when pressured.

Characters like Wario and Sonic reliably have ways to always recover HIGH above the stage where 5 ultra jump meta knights struggle to reach. And they do it really really quickly.

 

[Luco]

What the-

Just did Lucas vs. Olimar, used Fair to hit him and got hit by his Fair, but it didn't induce knockback. Lucas has invincibility frames on his Fair??

Also spacies have issues on lag before and after on their recovery options - Phantasm is only invincible for a certain amount of frames before you can interrupt it.

It's a reason why they're not even with MK.

 

[Cassio]

Ive never seen an issue recovering low against any non-metaknight player, if pika has his jump. This is assuming a character has committed to traveling offstage to try and edgeguard pika, and occasionally ends with pika onstage while the opponent is stuck on the ledge after their offstage foray. Pikachu isnt pressured to travel back to the stage immediately, and holding back and recovering late against edgeguard attempts tends to work out pretty well for pika, and waiting that extra portion of a second also allows him to knock opponents off the ledge should he need it. Im also not sure if you were referring to bodily exposure with quick attack? Attacking the QA transition offstage is extremely risky, and his movement phase is pretty safe and allows him to snap to the ledge at a pretty safe distance (grabbing the ledge interrupts the quick attack).

Also is recovering high really a more valuable attribute than making it to the ledge? I feel like this might be pretty character specific.

 

[Shaya]

I think just about everyone hates being on the ledge in comparison to being on stage.

Also yes, always lower is always better. GOOD ANSWER

Too bad people still will not always recover low with Pika.

 

[smashkng]

Just to correct the reputation that Phantasm has invincible frames. It does not have any. It's just that his hurtbox teleports really far at the start of the distance as shown in this vid which shows the IAP frame by frame: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCAjswCuLds So you can't hit him out at the first 1/3 of his phantasm distance he goes (which is about the length of a BF plataform as seen in the vid).

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

MK Wario Pikachu ??? ??? Pit

Fill me in SFP

imo

MK
Game and Watch
Pikachu
Wario
Jigglypuff

 

[pidgezero_one]

did somebody say jigglypuff

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

did somebody say jigglypuff

Yes, SFP did.

It was one post above yours how could you not notice it gosh.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Jigglypuff has a lot of problems but getting back to the stage is far from being one of them

 

[pidgezero_one]

I soloed jiggs in a tourney yesterday because i decided it was time to live up to my SWF name and face full life consequences

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

And how was is it? Did you have any trouble recovering?

 

[FourStar]

Pikachu can combo into smash attacks?

If you mean like at CG percents, being able to combo at low percents is pretty universal across the good characters

have you not ESAM do it with his forward grab or a down smash into a up smash?

 

[FourStar]

Dsmash at lower percents require SDI. At higher percents, it only requires ASDI (hold the control stick in a direction).


I like Uair. Its damage is pretty pathetic, but its rather useful. Really similar to MK's Uair. Nair is pretty decent and many characters wish they had a sex kick type of move. Those are extremely useful. I am not sure about Fair. The long duration is useful for a forward attacking move. Dair too is useful for a strong strong back. Bair is.... eh.
^Conclusion: Pikachu has pretty good neutrals in the air.

I could potentially agree with one of the best recoveries in the game in a particular sense. MK has the most options, but they are all rather straight forward and telegraphed (UpB is just hard to react too). Look across Smash64, Melee, and Brawl, and Pikachus' quick attack is rather hard to pin down. With it's distance, it can get pikachu to the upper platforms, to the ledge, or deep on stage. Not many characters have that freedom and still fewer can hope to cover all the angles Pika has from all of them.
^Conclusion: Pika has some pretty good recovery options.

I don't see how smashes are important in anything really. Generally, they are pretty poor compared to tilt options which are a nice medium between start-up/cool down time, duration, range, and knockback. Unless you are olimar where smashes are superior to any tilt really.

Having a good dashing speed is pretty important in a lot of aspects. Allows you to get in on opponents how they commit to an option.

at least someone understand what im talking about. LOL thanks i guess for not being ignorant

 

[pidgezero_one]

And how was is it? Did you have any trouble recovering?

Huh?

 

[Desu~]

Jigglypuff's got 99 problems but recovering ain't one.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Ganon has >Infinte problems and walking is just one.

 

[smashkng]

Ganon's only good things are pretty much his damage output + kill power, decent range (his grab is complete trash though), a mediocre move to tech chase with and a great Uair. He is pretty much incredibly bad at everything else.

 

[Espy Rose]

His damage output is meh. It's really just his kill power and sideB.

 

[smashkng]

Meh damage output? 1 Dair does 22% damage. Bair does 16%, Fsmash 25%, Fair 17% damage. The problem is that almost all of his moves stale so fast and it's so hard to land a hit with him at the first place. After landing a hit on the opponent with Ganon, the next attack he lands on the opponent is often the same attack as before, like Dair for example. The stale rate is so fast, for example Dair after a single hit deals like 19% damage and while fresh it kills many chars at 100%, it's suddenly is like no where near kill % at that percent after only have used it once before. Fsmash also deals like 22% after a single use before. Dash attack is another move heavily nerfed by its severe stale-move negation knockback wise, as it's guaranteed on a lot of characters after hitting someone with a grounded gerudo and kills lightweights at about 100-105% fresh and when it's stale he loses an otherwise guarateed kill set up.

 

[infiniteV115]

Pretty sure dair does 23%

 

[smashkng]

I'm not 100% sure it's either of those %s but it doesn't matter that much, it's still A LOT of damage. And it strings into a lot of stuff at 0% for a usually initial 40% damage (although staling really cripples Dair, in this case, in the long run). Ganon just does single hit high damage moves and he doesn't hit enough times be refresh his kill moves he used to rack up all that damage when it's time to finish off.

 

[Dekillsage]

So do ganondorf players still land dair on people by doing it in place over and over?

 

[smashkng]

No. It hits easiest if he reads a spot dodge or roll behind him, or from a tech chase read out of side b. You can move a bit when you do a SH Dair you know. It's arguably one of his safest moves on block too (although it's most of the times not safe on block really, but considering that he has almost nothing safe on shield, it's one of the safer ones).

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

why are we talking about Ganondorf as if he's an actual character?

Let's talk about Jigglypuff some more, at least she can recover.

 

[infiniteV115]

yo green mew2 y u talkn **** bro MM my ganon with your jigs lets go

 

[ChickenWing13]

I don't agree with Marth being ahead of Snake andFalco. Just bcuz Mikeneko took down Ally at aapex shouldn't give Marth a +2 spot change. I honestly think Falco is also better than Marth and shuts him down completely but hey..

Nd Zss is now B tier??? With pieces or without?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

yo green mew2 y u talkn **** bro MM my ganon with your jigs lets go

yo vIIS if u wnna don8 $$$ 2 me i gl@dly accpt.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Ganon's stale rate is the same as every other character's. Of course a higher damage dealing move is going to lose more damage to stale move negation, it's how proportions work. And those higher damage dealing moves are always dealing more damage than weaker moves when staled to the same degree.

Ganon has innumerable problems, but stale move negation is not a problem for Ganon anymore than other characters.

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't agree with Marth being ahead of Snake andFalco. Just bcuz Mikeneko took down Ally at aapex shouldn't give Marth a +2 spot change. I honestly think Falco is also better than Marth and shuts him down completely but hey..

Nd Zss is now B tier??? With pieces or without?

Lol @ Falco shutting down Marth completely. It's an even MU, perhaps to one character's favour but if so, by a very small amount.

And it's not just because of the suitpieces but yeah, with them.

 

[Shaya]

Wait till everyone gets uber-mecha MK-2 tier with armor pieces and zero suit falls back to low tier like where she started.

 

[FourStar]

Lol @ Falco shutting down Marth completely. It's an even MU, perhaps to one character's favour but if so, by a very small amount.

And it's not just because of the suitpieces but yeah, with them.

agreed there. i wish more people thought like you

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

agreed there. i wish more people thought like you

I'd be terrified if more people thought like V

 

[FourStar]

I'd be terrified if more people thought like V

i meant just about that thought...

 

[pidgezero_one]

I'd be terrified if more people thought like V

I wouldn't.

 

[Shaya]

I think people overrate JIggly's recover for one obvious reason.
Just because he can stay off stage FOREVER does not mean it isn't very harassable off stage or as he approaches the stage. The ability to recover high + with her aerial mobility obviously makes it better than a significant majority of the cast, but I still ain't feeling G-dubs level anywhere.

Comparing it to Pikas...
Pika can recover low with GOODS. Jiggly generally cannot. Jiggs has easier means of recovering at stage height or higher (definitely) and can stay out forever (unlike Pikachu). Side-B and fair are better aerial challenges than Pika (although Pika has tjolts) [you can either get past tjolts or you cannot, so I guess on average jiggly is "worse"... against worse characters...]


I'm not sure which I'd rate higher between the two.

I'd tend to say MK > G&W > Wario > them though.

 

[Dekillsage]

Yo do you guys have twitter?
I have twitter https://twitter.com/dekillsage

Follow me on twitter. I'll follow you on twitter

Know what I'm sayin?

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Yo do you guys have twitter?
I have twitter https://twitter.com/dekillsage

Follow me on twitter. I'll follow you on twitter

Know what I'm sayin?

Shameless self plug is shameless.

Also people are really seeming to put lots of love on g&w's recovery. I agree its good. But it is very linear compared to the others that we are putting in the same class as him. What is it about his recovery that people rate it so high?

 

[FourStar]

Shameless self plug is shameless.

Also people are really seeming to put lots of love on g&w's recovery. I agree its good. But it is very linear compared to the others that we are putting in the same class as him. What is it about his recovery that people rate it so high?

agreed! it is so easy to read and is easily punished. this is where unpredictable ones like pikachu, MK, ZSS, and a few others excel in getting back to the stage

 

[Delta-cod]

So uh, FourStar, how often do you punish GnW's recovery?

 

[FourStar]

um a lot. using pikachu i throw a little thunder jolt and it gimps and makes GnW die. cheap but effective. or sometimes i use melee tactics and use uair to make GnW gimp and die as well. i like gimping GnW. of course its kinda hard and i die sometimes but its fun nonetheless