Official SWF Tier List v8

[da K.I.D.]

yea dude, no reason to be disrespecting him like that espy

 

[Espy Rose]

I don't know what came over me.

 

[Desu~]

It's because of that tier list.
Since then, everyone just leaps and kill each others like mad dogs.
Evil needs to be vanquished.
The tier list must disappear.

 

[Cassio]

Again this is from a more objective (as opposed to result based) perspective.

In general people underrate his range and seem to have no understanding of his priority. Every character that doesnt have a sword or something like bananas is going to have issues with pikas that know how to properly space moves like fair, dair, fsmash, dtilt, uair, etc. The best way to describe it would be to think of pika as a flying yellow pikmin. Most pikachus dont really try to space with his disjoints because its hard to understand much less do, but if used in conjunction with his speed and mobility it makes him a powerful character.

Okay fine.
Pikachu looks good to people who don't understand him.
Sad that you're one of those people. You had Pika2 for years.

That's not exactly true. Anther, Z, and ESAM all believe hes top 5 in the game or better, and I find the more I learn about the character the better he seems to be as well.

stuff

stuff

I dont think MU experience plays a part in the way you seem to think. I will say this, and it comes from my own experience in the MU, until you fight multiple high-top level MK's consistently you will have a pretty hard time learning and understanding how to fight them, this goes for many characters. ESAM admitted this as well in regards to his understanding of the MK MU. I think its no fluke that the best players at fighting MK tend to come from NY/NJ, Socal, and Japan or close by. In honesty I think this sort of MU inexperience benefits MK more than pika, pika is a very simple character to fight since the two most important aspects of fighting him (having good DI and SDI) are essential components to being good at brawl in general.


Also SFP you can see this for yourself. Watch these videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3OondJpqQA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtgNZJxRUlc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poKaItNc6IU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDIelLkl8wk


and compare to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nInvaKa7PrY or his older vids in general. I'd say at this moment most of pikachus MU's are underdeveloped from lack of rep, and it makes his spread underrated. However, if you rely more heavily on results or set standards based on them as you do I can see that perspective.

Dunno if anyone actually wants details on the MU. Basically MK's weaknesses just become a bit more apparent in this MU such as his transcendent priority and low mobility. I think one aspect people disregard is that pika actually outranges MK, something that was mentioned in a discussion I had with tyrant recently, granted MK's mobility helps him alleviate this.

 

[Espy Rose]

All of those people are insane, and we've had plenty of proof over the years to prove that.
Except for Z. He's just kinda... Z.

 

[Bobert]

Love the new tier list.

 

[Kazu]

I don't really have an issue with this tier list. I only think that the tier categories should be more simple like Top, High, Mid, Low, Bottom. No Upper or Lower crap, it just makes it more confusing. I don't know why Ice Climbers have their own tier- I do think they are second best in the game, but why do they need their own tier? Finally, I don't believe that Lucario, Dedede, and Toon Link are mid-tier. They should be the bottom 3 of high tier, as they are very viable characters, but obviously not as much as the other high tiers. These 3 characters will probably dominate mid-tier tournaments if they include the upper mid tier section.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So conclusion: Donkey Kong will drop more placements in the future?

 

[Ishiey]

I'd say at this moment most of pikachus MU's are underdeveloped from lack of rep, and it makes his spread underrated. However, if you rely more heavily on results or set standards based on them as you do I can see that perspective.

I think his spread is overrated tbh, but do agree that his MUs are underdeveloped.

Dunno if anyone actually wants details on the MU. Basically MK's weaknesses just become a bit more apparent in this MU such as his transcendent priority and low mobility. I think one aspect people disregard is that pika actually outranges MK, something that was mentioned in a discussion I had with tyrant recently, granted MK's mobility helps him alleviate this.

I agree with you on the first part , but how in the world does Pika outrange MK? @_______________________@

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I agree with you on the first part , but how in the world does Pika outrange MK? @_______________________@

obv becuz pika has a projectile & mk duzn't

 

[Dre89]

I don't think people realise how much previous tier lists bias their opinions of characters. If Esam had been owning people like he does now back in 2008 and maintained that until today (which is something we know is possible, because that's a player issue, not a character issue) pikachu would probably have been top tier for many tier lists, and that in turn would affect people's perception of him today.

Whether you think he is high or top or whatever, he definitely has the ability to win nationals, especially if other imperfect characters like Falco and ZSS can. That's all that matters from a practical standpoint.

 

[Tesh]

obv becuz pika has a projectile & mk duzn't

actually pikachu has 2 projectiles so he has more mixups than mk

 

[-LzR-]

I don't think people realise how much previous tier lists bias their opinions of characters. If Esam had been owning people like he does now back in 2008 and maintained that until today (which is something we know is possible, because that's a player issue, not a character issue) pikachu would probably have been top tier for many tier lists, and that in turn would affect people's perception of him today.

Whether you think he is high or top or whatever, he definitely has the ability to win nationals, especially if other imperfect characters like Falco and ZSS can. That's all that matters from a practical standpoint.

If you mean people should always think of making a tierlist from a scratch instead of a just "moving" characters up or down, I totally agree with you.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

actually pikachu has 2 projectiles so he has more mixups than mk

You don't seem to understand what a mixup is...

 

[Tesh]

I'm not great with terminology, I might have mixed it up with something else.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario in mid tier tournaments would make me happy, but I know TOs won't let him, TL and D3 in there. :/

 

[Tesh]

Might be interesting to see tbh. Its not like any of those characters are unstoppable.

D3 might be the closest thing because it could be argued that no one beats him.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lucario might be a problem in Mid Tier tournaments if theres an actual good Lucario player in attendance, but there arent many so I dont see him being a problem often. I see D3 and Tink being really prominent picks though, seeing as D3 will be a VERY dominant character with an easy to learn tactic in his CGs and bair with few to no problem MUs, and with Tink being able to easily outcamp a vast majority of the cast.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Might be interesting to see tbh. Its not like any of those characters are unstoppable.

D3 might be the closest thing because it could be argued that no one beats him.

That sounds like MK in regular tournaments.

Anyone who argues that MK should be legal in standard tournaments, must also therefore argue that D3 should be legal in Mid tier.

obv

 

[Tesh]

yea, but side events exist so people can escape that level of tyranny

 

[Cassio]

I think his spread is overrated tbh, but do agree that his MUs are underdeveloped.



I agree with you on the first part , but how in the world does Pika outrange MK? @_______________________@

What specifically though?

Pika's fsmash actually outranges MK's moveset, but it needs to be used in the right sort of way. Trying to assertively fsmash Metaknight isnt typically a smart thing to do, but for an MK that tries to play the poke game with pika responding with a stutter-step fsmash is a powerful option that forces MK to play a more favorable mobility based game. Its a frustrating experience for any MK that tries to force the issue, and it benefits him against most characters trying to outrange pika in general or that frequently use moves like jabs and tilts to zone.

 

[da K.I.D.]

the part that beats mks range is the part that does wack damage and KB though.

 

[Cassio]

The knockback at low percents is actually pretty useful. It knocks them directly up, but not too far, in a perfect spot for pika to gain some good momentum. Its true the damage isnt the typical 21%, but 14% is still pretty nice.

Also since I know some peeps will wonder this isnt just theoretical, I actually use this against my regions best MK's and Im sure theyd confirm if asked. I dont think MK's just poking at pika is really the strongest way for him the play the MU anyways unless the pika is unfamiliar with how to deal with it.

 

[Espy Rose]

Whether you think he is high or top or whatever, he definitely has the ability to win nationals, especially if other imperfect characters like Falco and ZSS can. That's all that matters from a practical standpoint.

Not anymore.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't think people realise how much previous tier lists bias their opinions of characters. If Esam had been owning people like he does now back in 2008 and maintained that until today (which is something we know is possible, because that's a player issue, not a character issue) pikachu would probably have been top tier for many tier lists, and that in turn would affect people's perception of him today.

Whether you think he is high or top or whatever, he definitely has the ability to win nationals, especially if other imperfect characters like Falco and ZSS can. That's all that matters from a practical standpoint.

Dre pls

stop saying things that make me agree with you

it burnssssssss

 

[da K.I.D.]

Dre has been easily my favorite poster from a quality standpoint for at least 2 weeks now. lol probably would have been longer, had i started associating his name with his posts earlier.

 

[Seagull Joe]

You people and your semantics.

 

[Ishiey]

What specifically though?

Pika's fsmash actually outranges MK's moveset, but it needs to be used in the right sort of way. Trying to assertively fsmash Metaknight isnt typically a smart thing to do, but for an MK that tries to play the poke game with pika responding with a stutter-step fsmash is a powerful option that forces MK to play a more favorable mobility based game. Its a frustrating experience for any MK that tries to force the issue, and it benefits him against most characters trying to outrange pika in general or that frequently use moves like jabs and tilts to zone.

Nothing specifically, just a bunch of in-between MUs that tipped in Pika's favor. I think his MK MU is overrated, but he's not the only one lol.

The hit you're talking about comes out on frame 21... I've seen it used effectively and know it's legit and all, but to say "I can stutter-step fsmash on a ftilt/dtilt hard read so I outrange MK" sounds like too much of a niche situation to be considered "outranging" a character overall. Y'know, a lot of characters can do the same thing, with moves faster than 21 frames, yet they don't actually "outrange" MK, just have the option to do so in a few specific situations.

 

[infiniteV115]

If Pikachu's fsmash was safe on block like ZSS', it'd become much more relevant as an outrange-MK's-tilts tool. But even then it's still an RPS situation at best for Pikachu XD

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

That sounds like MK in regular tournaments.

Anyone who argues that MK should be legal in standard tournaments, must also therefore argue that D3 should be legal in Mid tier.

obv

This is my feeling exactly. it just took me too long to catch up with this thread to say it before you. Mk really is significantly better than all those below him just like ddd. If it is ok for mk to be allowed in standard then there is real lacking justification to not allow ddd for the same reason.

personally I feel ddd should be high tier because he loses a lot of matchups but he functions well enough in there to be a threat. Too many top level diddys were taken out at apex by ddds for me to feel otherwise.

Ddd is one of the worst high tiers but functions just fine in their meta.

 

[Dre89]

Dre pls

stop saying things that make me agree with you

it burnssssssss

I'm pretty sure I know why you don't want to agree with me (this is going back to stuff I said in the PRoom correct?), but I can assure you I don't have those views anymore. I just don't want to say it here for obvious reasons.

Dre has been easily my favorite poster from a quality standpoint for at least 2 weeks now. lol probably would have been longer, had i started associating his name with his posts earlier.

Stawp.

Now I feel pressured to always post quality stuff lol. Should just retire on a good note.

Actually there is one question I wanted to put to the boards regarding the tiering of low tiers. With the exceptions of Jiggs and Samus, pretty much every low tier is inherently unsafe.

At high levels of play, these low tiers probably aren't going to be winning against better characters by playing safe for the whole match, especially if the opponent knows the MU. If they win, it's most likely because they're punishing mistakes.

So my question is, should low tiers (or just inherently unsafe characters) be tiered based on their safety, or how hard they can punish mistakes? For example, Ganondorf is probably the least safe character in the game. He's got one of the least safe shields, least safe approaches, and one of the least safe recoveries. This is part of the reason why he's considered the worst in the game. However, he can punish a lot harder than most of low tier, which is why I think a lot of players are more nervous versing him than like a Link or a Bowser.

The question is, is he worse than other low tiers like Zelda and Falcon, who are technically safer than him, but still not safe enough to be 'safe' against better characters, yet punish softer than he does?

I'm not saying he is better, I'm just asking the question.

 

[infiniteV115]

I would argue that Bowser punishes better than Ganon. Maybe not at kill %s, but in terms of damage Bowser is capable of getting a grab (with a few pummels) --> sideB on quite a few chars in the cast iirc, which even when factoring in staleness will probably equate to roughly 20% per punish, and it's easier for him to get these grab punishes than it is for Ganon to get whatever his high-damage punish is...or at least I imagine that's the case.

Yup, GR --> sideB on almost everyone is guaranteed.
Bowser also gets the OoS punishes with upB, idk how much damage upB does though.

Ganon's damaging punishes will be, what, sideB --> jab/dtilt? Bair/dair/fair? Maybe fsmash/usmash? These seem like they'd happen less often than Bowser's punishes and I'm not even sure if any of these lead to more damage than GR --> sideB.

 

[FourStar]

RANT TIME:
Idk why people are so stupid about admitting pika is good. he is good. admit it. but there are still problems so that's all i gotta say.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Up B does like, 16%-19% when fresh (I used to know exactly how much but havent played in forever) and also has 5 frames of invincibility on start up. It can also kill characters like MK and Falco starting around 150%. He can also GR > dtilt a lot of characters, which results in a kill pretty early cuz it has a lot of knockback. Also, Klaw kills around the same time Up B does when fresh, only its usually not fresh lol. Also, GR > Jab is guaranteed on EVERYONE except DK.

Bowser can get a good amount out of grabs at basically any percent, has a good up b, etc, but hes still bad character that is really punishable outside of his Jab/Side B.

And I dont think anyone is saying Pika is bad, theyre just saying hes overrated. Overrated =/= bad, it just means less good than people think, which can still be good.

 

[Dre89]

Well I was thinking Ganondorf would punish with uair, dash attack, jab, dair and fair. The latter two aren't bread-and-butter moves, but we're talking about punishing, and those two are excellent realistic punishers.

I think outside of grabs (which Bowser can only land realistically if they misspace an attack on shield or he gets a pivot grab read) Ganondorf 'outpunishes' him in every other regard.

Ganondorf's sideb-follow up usually either gets him similar or more damage than Bowser's sideb, which does 18% fresh. If you factor in KO percents, then you can say Ganondorf punishes even harder because he KOs at lower percents. Ganondorf can realistically KO with a fair or dair, which KO earlier than Bowser's realistic KO options, which are utilt and dtilt out of a jab or grab release.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ganon out punishes, but Bowser is faster, safer, has a better defensive game, more reliable kill moves, and has the ability to turtle which Ganon cant do effectively.

 

[Dre89]

Ganon out punishes, but Bowser is faster, safer, has a better defensive game, more reliable kill moves, and has the ability to turtle which Ganon cant do effectively.

If you read the original context that the discussion came up in, I noted that Bowser is safer, but punishes softer than Dorf. The original question was whether Dorf is worse than characters like Bowser, because although Bowser is safer, he is still inherently unsafe against better characters anyway, but punishes mistakes less heavily.

 

[Espy Rose]

With safety being an inherent factor to a character's worth in the competitive scene, I'd hope that this tier list was made with consideration to the safety of the character's skill set, Dre.

I mean, the higher up the list you go, the more ease the character has with dealing with a generic situation (for the most part). Having said that, I'd consider Bowser above Ganondorf regardless of how much harder Ganondorf can punish.

I'd like to personally say that Bowser is better than Ganondorf to that extent. You can't do much with a character that hits like a bus full of fat people when that character has an extremely small pool of options that just aren't consistently profitable at a high level of play. Bowser hits respectably hard himself, but he has a few tools that make him far more safe than anything Ganondorf can do, and that makes a world of difference.

 

[FourStar]

Ganondorf is just soooooo slow so its hard for him to punish due to his lack of mobility

 

[Dre89]

With safety being an inherent factor to a character's worth in the competitive scene, I'd hope that this tier list was made with consideration to the safety of the character's skill set, Dre.

I mean, the higher up the list you go, the more ease the character has with dealing with a specific situation (for the most part). Having said that, I'd consider Bowser above Ganondorf regardless of how much harder Ganondorf can punish.

I'd like to personally say that Bowser is better than Ganondorf to that extent. You can't do much with a character that hits like a bus full of fat people when that character has an extremely small pool of options that just aren't consistent at a high level of play.

But the question is how much safer is Bowser at high levels of play against top tier characters. The only practical difference I can think of is that you have to be a bit more cautious on Bowser's shield due to upb. In every other regard, I don't see his additional safety really making much difference in terms of how easily he is gimped, how easily he is juggled, how easily his landings are punished, how unsafe his approach is (they both can basically only approach horizontally, the only difference is that Bowser has a good aerial grab) how easy it is to force commitments from him etc.

I could be wrong though, I am a low-level player after all.