Official SWF Tier List v8

[Dre89]

I laughed reading "iDA" over the last few pages
Is there any basic action in this game that doesn't have an AT-esque name.

Reminds me of that flame dash video from 08 lol, and the windmill of fury

Uh how is it not an AT? You have to use different inputs than what you would use to do a normal DA. It's not mentioned in the manual or any tutorial, is only known by competitive players, and is probably the most 'advanced' way to use a DA outside of DACUSing and BDACUSing.

Your argument was that Dedede dominating mid-tier tourneys - which heavily implies that he beats the majority of mid-tier - does not mean that he is significantly better than mid-tier.

I like how you didn't respond to the fact that I pointed out that you don't understand argumentation at all.

And uh yeah, that doesn't mean he's not mid-tier, because the tier list doesn't tier how good a character does in MTs. It tiers how good a character is in standard tourneys.

Saying that D3 dominating MTs somehow makes him more viable in standard tourneys than other mids and therefore should be higher than them is like saying that ICs should be lower on the list because they're supposedly crap in doubles. How a character does in doubles or MTs is irrelevant to this tier list.

Suppose D3 bodied everyone below how, but hypothetically had -3s and -4s with everyone above him. Now suppose Tink doesn't necessarily body everyone below him, but has good to negative-but-winnable MUs with everyone above him. In this scenario, it's clear that D3 would be less viable than Tink in standard tourneys, despite dominating MTs way more than Tink does.

To take a leaf from pokemon's book, that's what ban tiers are for. A UU ban tier would be for pokemon who are UU in terms of usage/viability in OU, but are too good for the UU meta. To say that these pokemon are OU simply because they're OP in UU misconstrues their viability in OU.

So please, explain how dominating a meta game that is not factored into the tier list somehow makes a character more viable in the meta that is actually factored into that list.

 

[Shaya]

Falco is almost mid tier like King Dedede is almost top tier?

 

[Jabejazz]

It hurts me that neither Marth nor Falco are the best tiers, MK is still top, and Link is still one of the worst.
Tell me, why do you people think that characters are so low or so high? If you would put your places to study characters and tournaments, as well as players, you could come up with a more "official" tier list, rather than the one that is like this. In a professional Link vs Meta Knight battle with the best two players, who would win? Would it be Link? Would it be Meta Knight? Would it be random? See, I know that any match outcome will always be random to most people watching, so saying Meta Knight is still the best, and Link is one of the worst, is all a fallacy.

No, numbers, cold hard facts show that Link is terrible in many aspects (even worse than SSBM's Link, which you consider high tier) and unless there's an absurd difference in skill level between the two players, MK will win.

Tell me this as well, why not make a chart depicting players level of profession, rather than a character? As well, why not make any sort of character analyzer that tells what attributes characters have, like their power, weight, hitbox, ease of use, range, and speed? Surely it must be easier than doing this.

The boards actually contain a lot of data concerning characters ground/air/fall speeds, moves frame data and so on.

I've studied and played Brawl for the past 5 years, but being the secretive, sadistic *** I am, I will never show you people how a true smasher should play. I do not know where to begin on telling you about my studies of the characters. Since 2001, I have devoted my life on the study of Smash Bros. Listen to inquiry rather than fallacy. I am the only one who has taken the most notes about the Super Smash Bros. series because I went to tournaments, looked at livestreams and pro videos, and even played in some.

Mooooooooooooom, someone's trolling me on the internet.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Uh how is it not an AT? You have to use different inputs than what you would use to do a normal DA. It's not mentioned in the manual or any tutorial, is only known by competitive players, and is probably the most 'advanced' way to use a DA outside of DACUSing and BDACUSing.





I like how you didn't respond to the fact that I pointed out that you don't understand argumentation at all.

And uh yeah, that doesn't mean he's not mid-tier, because the tier list doesn't tier how good a character does in MTs. It tiers how good a character is in standard tourneys.

Saying that D3 dominating MTs somehow makes him more viable in standard tourneys than other mids and therefore should be higher than them is like saying that ICs should be lower on the list because they're supposedly crap in doubles. How a character does in doubles or MTs is irrelevant to this tier list.

Suppose D3 bodied everyone below how, but hypothetically had -3s and -4s with everyone above him. Now suppose Tink doesn't necessarily body everyone below him, but has good to negative-but-winnable MUs with everyone above him. In this scenario, it's clear that D3 would be less viable than Tink in standard tourneys, despite dominating MTs way more than Tink does.

To take a leaf from pokemon's book, that's what ban tiers are for. A UU ban tier would be for pokemon who are UU in terms of usage/viability in OU, but are too good for the UU meta. To say that these pokemon are OU simply because they're OP in UU misconstrues their viability in OU.

So please, explain how dominating a meta game that is not factored into the tier list somehow makes a character more viable in the meta that is actually factored into that list.

I actually didnt think there was any way that the second exposure could be more painful than the first, but my boy Dre found a way.

This dude Bowser the Train just got logic bombed. 5 bucks says he slinks away from this conversation and doesnt bother to respond to Dre, knowing that hes been SOUNDLY defeated.

Or better yet, tries to attack me for meatriding (which to be fair, i kind of am) instead of responding to dres actual argument in an attempt to make himself feel better.

THIS GAMES WINNER IS...


DRE!!!

 

[Espy Rose]

Kinda? You're essentially a KID-kabob right now.

 

[FourStar]

King D3 is not even on the same level as Falco..... WTF

 

[Iota]

Of course not. That doesn't change that they both have about the same amount of spots between them from and to top tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Dedede is mid tier. HIs place in mid tier is long overdue and honestly the best, most progressive and intelligent change in this tier list.

Honestly, rationally: Dedede has no chance to do anything significant at top levels of play with MK, ICs, and others legal. It's just not reasonable to assume. He belongs in mid tier with other characters with strong traits and huge weaknesses or really bad match-ups. It's really that simple.

 

[FourStar]

I still think to this day Falco is at the top of the top tier. replace falco with marth and bam. there is a good list

 

[Espy Rose]

Good implies that Sonic be over Peach, which he currently is not.

 

[BladeBry]

This seems pretty accurate

 

[FourStar]

i think sonic is more of a high mid tier character. he is sooo ****ing fast and he's pretty easy to pick up

 

[Z'zgashi]

I personally think Sonic is good where he is. If anything Id actually switch him and Ike around, but regardless I think Sonic is pretty well placed. MAYBE Sonic/Ike could pass Kirby (not DK though, DK > Kirby imo).

 

[Espy Rose]

I'd be fine with where he is if Peach were below him.

 

[Tesh]

Good implies that Sonic be over Peach, which he currently is not.

Sonic does better against other mid tiers, but Peach does better against high tier and top tier characters. Ness and Sheilda should be above Sonic. Kirby and DK should be below him.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic does better against high and top tier than Peach.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Imo mid tier should be:
HIGH MID:
Lucario >> King Dedede > Toon Link >>> Wolf > Pit > Fox > R.O.B.
MID:
Mr. Game & Watch > Donkey Kong >> Peach > Kirby > Ike > Sonic
LOW MID:
Ness > Sheik > Yoshi >> Lucas > Pokemon Trainer

 

[Espy Rose]

Move Peach down three spots and it's perfect.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Zz's Mid Tier List: Espy Edition:

HIGH MID:​

Lucario >> King Dedede > Toon Link >>> Wolf > Pit > Fox > R.O.B.​

MID:​

Mr. Game & Watch > Donkey Kong >> Kirby > Ike > Sonic > Peach​

LOW MID:​

Ness > Sheik > Yoshi >> Lucas > Pokemon Trainer​

 

[Tesh]

MK maybe in some irrelevant way of getting less stomped but still....well stomped.
ICs seems to go to Peach pretty clearly, Peach arguably wins and ICs arguably counter Sonic. No one thinks Sonic does better in this matchup
Olimar is the same deal, no way sonic does better.
Diddy is gonna have to go to peach once again.
Marth goes to Sonic we all know.
Snake....who knows, but for the sake of argument I'll give it to Sonic, but they both lose.
Falco is great against Sonic, not sure how badly he beats Peach
Pikachu and Wario go straight to peach as she actually wins these matchups decisively where Sonic is countered by Wario and even at best with pikachu
ZSS goes to sonic
Lucario I'd give to Peach just based on lucky pulls solving that glaring issue they both face.

so sonic has mk, marth, snake, zss

 

[Espy Rose]

Good thing history provides backup to all of those claims. Otherwise you'd just sound like a nut job.

 

[BlueXenon]

I prefer the characters be separated in these tiers.
S:
(±0)

A+:
(+2) (-1) (-1)

A-:

(+2) (-1)

(-1) (±0) (+1)


High Tier

B:
(-1) (±0)


Upper Mid Tier

C:
(±0) (±0) (±0) (+1)(-1) (+1) (+1)


Mid Tier

C-:
(-2)(±0) (+2) (±0) (+1) (-3) (±0)

(+1)


Lower Mid Tier

D:
(-1)

(+1) (-1) (±0)


Low Tier

E:

(±0) (±0) (±0) (±0) (+1)

Bottom Tier
(-1)

(±0) (±0)

 

[Z'zgashi]

I pretty much agree with the order, but im not seeing the tier separation. Top tier is fine separation wise, high tier is k i guess (being that small seems so wrong, but it really is small in this game), high mid i agree with the separation, mid tier I dont get because Sheik/Yoshi are pretty much neck and neck and interchangeable, then Ness has far better results than both making it a VERY strange separation there, Luigi over Lucas is laughable and idk why Luigi isnt low tier yet with how completely non existent he is result wise while guys like Mekos/PF wreck everything lately, and cutting off bottom tier with just 3 doesnt make sense imo and should undeniably have at the least 4-5 down there.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Why did you write this many words - almost entirely about yourself - that aren't related at all to the discussion that was being had in a thread about tier lists?

Cause I am usually the only person here that corrects false info with Peach. And most people have learned alot of **** about this character from me in here. Like one point lucario thought they can uptilt me inbetween dairs and Nair. I had to correct them and told them not to do that. You will eat a nair before your tilt comes out. His uptilt is 7 frames I believe. Shield drop is 7. Thats a total of 14 frames your attack will come out. Peach can do another air attack on frame 33. The move ends on frame 32. Nair is 3 frames. You can not punish that without of shield options unless you have an up-B Like Marth. Meta Knight can't even punish that with his Up-B. The invincibility frames don't even kick in before my nair would hit him.

But yea, thats just an example of what I been doing here along with debates. But I am not gonna be fighting for peach in here anymore. And stated my reasons why. That's it. I will answer questions about her dealing to the example I gave above. But going into debates and match up talk in comparison to other characters I will no longer do. I'm just gonna let people think and say what they want.

 

[Tesh]

Well, both characters still lost most of those matchups so success is harder to measure. Even ancient history only gives a clear shot of a few characters.

Sure you beat Rich Brown and DEHF a long time ago, but I think more recent stuff shows these matchups aren't anywhere near decent when WC isn't involved.

As for Snake, Diddy and Lucario, I can't remember any of these characters taking a big loss to sonic or peach.

 

[Hippieslayer]

............

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sonic and Peach both do about equally vs ZSS.... if anything, Sonic does slightly worse, but it's negligible.

 

[da K.I.D.]

didnt nicole win money in some good sized tournament recently?

 

[Hippieslayer]

zss win both if pro enough, but Lucas an Luigi are strong.

 

[Tesh]

Sonic and Peach both do about equally vs ZSS.... if anything, Sonic does slightly worse, but it's negligible.

Maybe ZSS beats Sonic, I could believe it, but results don't show Peach doing as well as Sonic. Stuff like __X__ beating Nick Riddle twice (2-0 right?) and well I've never seen Nick Riddle lose to a Peach. In fact the matchup looks pretty bad for Peach.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

No top ZSS has lost to a Peach since like 2009, though the match-up has become kinda rare.

As for Sonic, well... it was like early 2010, first of all, but NickRiddle had no idea what to do. Not to john for him, but Sonic isn't exactly a match-up you can just walk into and win, you kind of have to know what's going on, which NR (in his own words) really didn't at the time.

ZSS does beat Sonic though.

 

[Espy Rose]

ZSS doesn't beat Sonic.
Rofl.

 

[infiniteV115]

Sonic definitely does better against ZSS than Peach. Sonic is arguably even, at worst for Sonic I'd say it's like 53:47 ZSS' favour, at best it's even. I think it's very slight ZSS' favour and I have experience against Meek but idk.
Peach seems like at least 55:45 ZSS' favour.

 

[Espy Rose]

I feel like at worst it's like, 49:51 in ZSS's favor.
If she has any advantage on Sonic whatsoever, then it's incredibly negligible.

 

[Muhti]

The metagame can only do so much about frame data. Characters with good frame data like Luigi and Sheik have potential to rise if some kind of playstyle of discoveries to overcome their weaknesses should arise, but when all your best moves come out in 10+ frames and have massive blind spots...

I have some work to do boys...

 

[NickRiddle]

Don't give Luigi players hope that their character isn't trash tier.
Because he is, and that's just ****ing mean.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

There's not really any way to overcome bad kill power, unfortunately for Sheik.

There's also no way to overcome a complete lack of safety both on shield and on hit.

It's too easy to trade with Sheik and as long as you're trading you always win, cuz she can't kill you first.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Sheik is a fun character but she can't kill for ****. I feel Ike and DK are much better than her.

 

[BlueXenon]

There's not really any way to overcome bad kill power, unfortunately for Sheik.

There's also no way to overcome a complete lack of safety both on shield and on hit.

It's too easy to trade with Sheik and as long as you're trading you always win, cuz she can't kill you first.

I don't know what Sheik is good at, but it seems like your ignoring her strengths.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Sheik is good at, well, being Sheik. She can still rack up damage effectively as in Melee. And she has an awesome projectile. She just suffers through Brawl's shield-game, and a massive nerf in her KO power.