Official SWF Tier List v8

[Tesh]

Almost every dash attack is horrible as a brawl move because its an offensive commitment. I'm just talking about whats "good for a dash attack" and even by those standards ZSS doesn't look great to me. Any dash attack that gets shielded is most likely going to be punished, except for maybe Diddy and kirby due to low lag and sometimes sonic due to the massive distance covered which can retreat behind an opponent.

How possible is it to land these dash attacks (range and speed) and how rewarding is it (power, setups) is all thats going to matter here because charging directly into your opponent is already bad most of the time anyway.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Olimar has a good dash attack. Its not particularly useful for Oli seeing as it completely goes against his playstyle, but if it were on a character that wants to get in your face it would be great. Definitely not the best, but up there.

 

[infiniteV115]

whats so great about it that puts her above all those other traits. she has a super laggy dash attack that fluctuates between being unsafe on hit and barely comboing into frame 1-4 attacks. There is no spectacular disjoint, speed or power.

First of all, refer to everything SFP said.
Now I'll respond to why it's better than the following stuff

Better than
The ones that trip?
The ones with no many hits and no lag?
The ones that can semi spike?
The ones that kill?
The ones that kill REALLY EARLY?
The ones that cover alot of distance really fast?
The ones that enable a usable DACUS?

Whats so great about MK's? Hitbox is okay, but isnt it kind of detrimental to have a lasting hitbox that will clash with aerial (making it worse for catching landings?)

Really hers sets up for stuff about as well as Captain Falcon, Lucario, Fox , Mario etc. Its not great, but her quick moves up close let her combo off of it SOMETIMES.

Tripping with a dash attack isn't really a big deal on a char like ZSS/TL. TL gets what (at best) out of a trip, an usmash/dsmash for killing/damage?
ZSS's best trip option is either dash attack because it'll yield the best damage (for the reasons SFP mentioned already + dsmash is too slow to true combo out of trip iirc), or go for the tech chase with sideB/dsmash.
You make it sound like many hits = good thing. That just makes the dash attack easier to SDI. And I'm pretty sure both Kirby's and Diddy's dash attacks are still unsafe on block (fairly certain I've punished both with utilt OoS as ZSS) so that kinda nullifies the whole 'no lag' thing. At top level they shouldn't be taking a punish much weaker than ZSS for a dash attack on block.

Semi spike? What do you mean? Can't you just DI those up...?

Yes, a dash attack that can kill is good, but that doesn't mean a dash attack that kills > a dash attack that doesn't. ZSS' dash attack isn't supposed to be a kill move, it's for netting damage and positional advantage. It'd be like saying Falco's dthrow sucks because it can't kill. Or tornado is bad because it doesn't edgeguard.

Yeah, ZSS' dash attack doesn't cover a lot of distance really fast. Assuming it did while still maintaining its stringing properties, it would be a bit better. But it's still very good.

ZSS doesn't need a usable DACUS. Her usmash is not exactly a move you use to approach a grounded opponent.

So yeah on top of all that stuff SFP said and all the stuff I just said as well, there are many other things about ZSS' dash attack that make it godlike.
-Elaborating on what SFP said, after DAL percents, dash attack can set up (ie not a true combo but it still works fairly well) into both dsmash and sideB. An opponent who gets hit by a DA after DAL percents and decides to tech in place WILL get hit by a buffered dsmash, and the spacing generally works out so that an opponent who tries to counterattack right after getting hit by the DA by throwing out an aerial will NOT hit ZSS, except for the really big things like MK/Marth/Ness/Ike fair. Right after DAL %s, you can still get a pseudo-DAL going.
-At pre-DAL %s when DA --> jab/utilt is still guaranteed (ie about 25-40 give or take depending on weight), an opponent who knows anything about ZSS will be holding shield, which allows for grab mixups.
-It's frame 6, making it a fairly viable OoS option
-It has a long lasting hitbox, making it good for trapping landings
-The DAL not only does a ****ton of damage but can also get the opponent offstage and potentially lead into a gimp against certain characters.
-It can force resets at low %s

There's more I was gonna say but I'm sleepy.

 

[Dre89]

Almost every dash attack is horrible as a brawl move because its an offensive commitment. I'm just talking about whats "good for a dash attack" and even by those standards ZSS doesn't look great to me. Any dash attack that gets shielded is most likely going to be punished, except for maybe Diddy and kirby due to low lag and sometimes sonic due to the massive distance covered which can retreat behind an opponent.

How possible is it to land these dash attacks (range and speed) and how rewarding is it (power, setups) is all thats going to matter here because charging directly into your opponent is already bad most of the time anyway.

They should only ever be used as iDAs, and they point is that only ever use them when the opponent is in a bad position (eg. landing) or doing something punishable (jumping). A lot of moves are commitments, the point is you only use them in situations where the commitment is lowered or is guaranteed to pay off.

 

[Tesh]

First of all, refer to everything SFP said.
Now I'll respond to why it's better than the following stuff


Tripping with a dash attack isn't really a big deal on a char like ZSS/TL. TL gets what (at best) out of a trip, an usmash/dsmash for killing/damage?
ZSS's best trip option is either dash attack because it'll yield the best damage (for the reasons SFP mentioned already + dsmash is too slow to true combo out of trip iirc), or go for the tech chase with sideB/dsmash.
You make it sound like many hits = good thing. That just makes the dash attack easier to SDI. And I'm pretty sure both Kirby's and Diddy's dash attacks are still unsafe on block (fairly certain I've punished both with utilt OoS as ZSS) so that kinda nullifies the whole 'no lag' thing. At top level they shouldn't be taking a punish much weaker than ZSS for a dash attack on block.

Semi spike? What do you mean? Can't you just DI those up...?

Yes, a dash attack that can kill is good, but that doesn't mean a dash attack that kills > a dash attack that doesn't. ZSS' dash attack isn't supposed to be a kill move, it's for netting damage and positional advantage. It'd be like saying Falco's dthrow sucks because it can't kill. Or tornado is bad because it doesn't edgeguard.

Yeah, ZSS' dash attack doesn't cover a lot of distance really fast. Assuming it did while still maintaining its stringing properties, it would be a bit better. But it's still very good.

ZSS doesn't need a usable DACUS. Her usmash is not exactly a move you use to approach a grounded opponent.

So yeah on top of all that stuff SFP said and all the stuff I just said as well, there are many other things about ZSS' dash attack that make it godlike.
-Elaborating on what SFP said, after DAL percents, dash attack can set up (ie not a true combo but it still works fairly well) into both dsmash and sideB. An opponent who gets hit by a DA after DAL percents and decides to tech in place WILL get hit by a buffered dsmash, and the spacing generally works out so that an opponent who tries to counterattack right after getting hit by the DA by throwing out an aerial will NOT hit ZSS, except for the really big things like MK/Marth/Ness/Ike fair. Right after DAL %s, you can still get a pseudo-DAL going.
-At pre-DAL %s when DA --> jab/utilt is still guaranteed (ie about 25-40 give or take depending on weight), an opponent who knows anything about ZSS will be holding shield, which allows for grab mixups.
-It's frame 6, making it a fairly viable OoS option
-It has a long lasting hitbox, making it good for trapping landings
-The DAL not only does a ****ton of damage but can also get the opponent offstage and potentially lead into a gimp against certain characters.
-It can force resets at low %s

There's more I was gonna say but I'm sleepy.

multi hitting is good because if shield poking and preventing power shields, both add to safety.

having a usable DACUS as an option isn't a detriment, even if your dacus sucks (like wario) for offense, it can help with mobility and give you a small punish you otherwise would have none

semi spikes like any angle can be DIed to an extent, but just like you can't DI ganon's dash attack to go completely horizontal, you can't DI up hard enough to stop puff or toon link from sending you at an unfavorable angle

its frame 6 and you were saying it might be the fastest in the game? MK, snake, jiggs, sonic and sheik are all faster, I'd gladly take the +4 frames for a killer with 4 times the hitbubbles that also sets up at low percents

the fastest OoS options will punish any dash attack, but there are obviously different degrees of safety, ZSS dash attack is laggy enough for her to get hit alot harder than diddy and kirby

zss is unsafe enough on block to get her smashed by almost anyone, diddy and kirby are like -10 on block so if they wind up behind you and you aren't MK shield drop will pretty much stop you from getting anything beyond a turnaround jab/tilt because they are way to short to OoS with most bairs

 

[Shaya]

Falco's dash attack is so ****ing good !_!

Like... Falco wouldn't be viable in nearly any way at top levels without his dash attack.

 

[Seagull Joe]

's DA is one of his only disjointed moves. It's also pretty safe on block because when you try to grab a using DA, his body is off the ground. The end lag sucks though and the move is only good vs someone in the air/not expecting it. I only DA when I mess up a dacus (The reason I would think most s would DA) or vs because it's good vs him specifically.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

MK, Diddy Kong, Snake, Falco, ZSS, Fox, Pit, Ike, Kirby, Sheik, Yoshi and Ganon all have pretty good dash attacks imo. Dash attacks aren't generally bad per se, it's just that a lot of characters have their reasons to not dash a lot in the first place.

 

[-LzR-]

GW dash attack is not bad either. It outlasts dodges, is decent OoS and is good after Dthrow. And the trajectory is just perfect for GW. The downfall is the horribly ridiculous lag if it whiffs or is blocked.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

it's just that a lot of characters have their reasons to not dash a lot in the first place.

All characters have a reason not to dash a lot.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

All characters have a reason not to dash a lot.

Some characters have reasons to dash a lot.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Some characters have reasons to dash a lot.

That doesn't mean they don't have a reason not to.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So there's no contradiction to what I said but you mentioned it anyway because ______ ?

 

[Dekillsage]

You should just ignore what mew2 says lol.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

So there's no contradiction to what I said but you mentioned it anyway because ______ ?

Because sometimes you need to make your own entertainment

You should just ignore what mew2 says lol.

Yeah, ignore that purple *******. Mewtwos don't have anything worthwhile to say unless they're green.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Where's the dislike button?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Where's the dislike button?

right here : Dislike

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

For the time being, I see it fitting like this
Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, Olimar, Ice Climbers, Snake, Falco,

-Meta Knight obvious.
-I see Diddy fitting here because of all the characters that are up at this area he does not have really any weaknesses that can be abused that the other characters have. Bananas are more so in his control than his opponent and he has a solid choice of neutrals and recovery.
-Originally, I didn't like the idea of Olimar up here, but Olimar does have very nice properties. Range being the main thing. He has all the tools necessary to completely evade opponents by purely out ranging them. The major flaw of recovery is for putting him below diddy.
-Ice Climbers are the only characters in the game which can guarantee heavy punishment to death. In a game where all character literally have to win dozens of micro exchanges instead of win a stock, ICs can do it in a couple of exchanges. That's pretty important (just play melee). Either way, they are completely useless without the both of them together. Having such a heavy weakness in any match-up I think makes them proper for this placement.
-Snake is very solid in just about everything other than being high up in the air. As soon as he is liberated form the ground, he sucks. Otherwise, he has the tools for virtually all stages and match-ups. But, he never wins any of them super hard.

 

[Dekillsage]

Tesh you don't throw out dash attacks for no reason for them to get punished oos. They serve purpose and the Zss mains have already mentioned some of them. I don't play the character so I can't really add anything but just know some of the properties other characters get off their dash attacks are irrelevant. Ganon isn't going to hit anyone with dash attack because he himself is slow, and just standing out or range shuts down that character.(He can dair in place all he wants lol) DDD's and Toonlinks are slow, they don't hit anyone. When they do dash attack they are yoloing. Diddy and Kirby do not have dash attacks that are safe on block. It doesn't matter if they apparently end up behind you sometimes because any character that's good will punish them regardless. Otherwise they're going to get grabbed or hit by a strong punish ( ) Even then if this false sense of safety is their only good trait its not as good as Zss's. Ike's dash attack is only good for the bthrow dash attack gimmick(or is this legit?) and kiling pikmin I swear. It doesn't do anything else. Etc

You look at a dash attack and go
1) Is this move fast?
2) What purposes does my dash attack serve?
3) Does it have the range it need to be useful?

Snake has the best dash attack because it hits on frame 5, 7 for weak hit and has the most bs range a 5 frame move would have. It allows for more punishes, an easier time catching landing and is a good burst move to yolo at people with. It does other stuff but these imo are its best traits when you exclude usmash.

Zss and Mk's dash attack has similar purposes as well as their own. The Zss players already mentioned some of their dash attacks uses.

Mk's is good because he can frame trap people into it, and having a move that goes as far his instant dash attack goes is actually pretty ****ing stupid for him to have. You don't see it because Mk's don't need it. Only problem I see with Mk's dash attack tbh is how unsafe it is on block and on whiff.

Pit, Sheik and rob have good dash attacks but they don't serve as much purpose as the others do. They're more of "my opponent did ______ that's unsafe I'll dash attack punish" type of moves.

Falco's dash attack looks and feels slow. How fast is that move?

 

[Xyro77]

right here : Dislike

why the hell did i click that button? damn you, green mewtwo

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

why the hell did i click that button? damn you, green mewtwo

All is going according to plan

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Falco's dash attack hits fast (frame 6), but does have considerable lag.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Yoshis dash attack combos into dash attack at low percent if they don't tech and if they're really stupid you can do it again and fair spike. True story.

 

[Minwu]

sometimes i like to stick tassles to my nipples and twirl them around in front of the mirror and whelp "would you drill rush me? i'd drill rush me hard"

 

[infiniteV115]

multi hitting is good because if shield poking and preventing power shields, both add to safety.

having a usable DACUS as an option isn't a detriment, even if your dacus sucks (like wario) for offense, it can help with mobility and give you a small punish you otherwise would have none

semi spikes like any angle can be DIed to an extent, but just like you can't DI ganon's dash attack to go completely horizontal, you can't DI up hard enough to stop puff or toon link from sending you at an unfavorable angle

its frame 6 and you were saying it might be the fastest in the game? MK, snake, jiggs, sonic and sheik are all faster, I'd gladly take the +4 frames for a killer with 4 times the hitbubbles that also sets up at low percents

the fastest OoS options will punish any dash attack, but there are obviously different degrees of safety, ZSS dash attack is laggy enough for her to get hit alot harder than diddy and kirby

zss is unsafe enough on block to get her smashed by almost anyone, diddy and kirby are like -10 on block so if they wind up behind you and you aren't MK shield drop will pretty much stop you from getting anything beyond a turnaround jab/tilt because they are way to short to OoS with most bairs

I didn't say it might be the fastest in the game O.o
You're also completely ignoring the high rewards that come out of ZSS' dash attack and you're looking solely at how punishable it is on block. I'm also having trouble believing that Diddy's and Kirby's DAs are only -10 on block ; I'd like the actual value if possible but that's beside the point.
Yes, a poorly executed dash attack from ZSS (ie one that gets blocked) is pretty bad. Using it properly (ie actually hitting the opponent with it like you should) makes it really good, and is not very hard to do at all, when you consider both ZSS' great running speed and the fact that it's frame 6. She can get it out of a few air releases, out of lasers, out of dsmash, and you know...pretty much all whiffed standing grabs or dash grabs can be punished by it rather easily.

 

[DeLux]

Why would a ZSS dash attack when she has Bair though is the real question

 

[pidgezero_one]

sometimes i like to stick tassles to my nipples and twirl them around in front of the mirror and whelp "would you drill rush me? i'd drill rush me hard"

I know that feel bro

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Why would a ZSS dash attack when she has Bair though is the real question

Maybe to save Bair for kills?

The real question is why people play ZSS when they could be playing MK.

 

[SoulJoker]

Maybe to save Bair for kills?

The real question is why people play ZSS when they could be playing MK.

Because MK is overrated.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Because MK is overrated.

3 Headed Shuckle disagrees

 

[Yobolight]

The MK matchup is so practiced and understood that skilled players can create a path to victory through mastery of a slightly worse character and the development of a unique playstyle (See Salem at Apex 2013). The combination of match-up unfamiliarity and skill is a potent one in a metagame where MK dominates the metagame to the point where he percieved to be the only true threat.

That being said, anyone still playing characters below Lucario on the tier list should probably switch mains or pick-up a top-tier secondary.

 

[SoulJoker]

3 Headed Shuckle disagrees

Because 3 Headed Shuckle is slightly more overrated.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Because 3 Headed Shuckle is slightly more overrated.

You can't overrate the best thing in the universe

 

[Jabejazz]

You can't overrate the best thing in the universe

That's not a Bidoof, you damned phillistine.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

That's not a Bidoof, you damned phillistine.

You want a Bidoof? I'LL SHOW YOU A BIDOOF!

 

[SoulJoker]

-Ice Climbers are the only characters in the game which can guarantee heavy punishment to death. In a game where all character literally have to win dozens of micro exchanges instead of win a stock, ICs can do it in a couple of exchanges. That's pretty important (just play melee). Either way, they are completely useless without the both of them together. Having such a heavy weakness in any match-up I think makes them proper for this placement.

Um completely useless without both of them together




I'm just going to leave this here |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-ZPIlzZEbA

 

[Espy Rose]

That video doesn't change anything. All I see is the exception that proves the rule.
Sopo is still free.

 

[SoulJoker]

You want a Bidoof? I'LL SHOW YOU A BIDOOF!

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

You call that a BIDOOF?

THIS! IS A BIDOOF!

 

[Minwu]

all of you are doofuses