Official SWF Tier List v8

[Jabejazz]

We're on to something here.

all of you are doofuses

Extremely.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

all of you are doofuses

I think you mean BIDOOFuses, tyvm

 

[SoulJoker]

You call that a BIDOOF?

THIS! IS A BIDOOF!

OBJECTION!
This is a bidoof

 

[Shaya]

falco's dash attack is horrendous on block?

Doesn't matter.
It's maximum reach/pseudo disjoint is ridonculous.
And getting hit by it is just THAT BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH.

Oh and seriously. Stop this **** that should be getting spam infractions.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

falco's dash attack is horrendous on block?

Doesn't matter.
It's maximum reach/pseudo disjoint is ridonculous.
And getting hit by it is just THAT BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH.

Oh and seriously. Stop this **** that should be getting spam infractions.

Yes sir Mr. Shaya sir *salutes*

I should probably use Flaoc's dash attack more, if only for the Gatling combo (which I never use )

 

[Shaya]

Power shield -> dash attack on Falco breaks the game. Gattling is just some little extra thing that works on some characters at some percents. In terms of relative options from an opponent that gets hit by it, it's like maniacal laughter youtube videos.

It's the crutch of his punishment game.

 

[Dekillsage]

Not usmash oos? I get falco's dash attack is good but not for punishing moves on block.

 

[Shaya]

What follow up/positional advantage does usmash oos give you that dash attack doesn't?
Usmash OoS is faster.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Usmash OOS may be faster, but OOS DA (or OOS DACUS) are way better.

 

[Dekillsage]

Uair frame traps, catching landings with lazer, damage/kills.
I don't know why you'd go for a dash attack with falco when grab is also really good. Maybe if you're catching someones landing sure but after block nope.

 

[Shaya]

The opponent has to adjust and play restrictively to avoid it.

Watch Larry against Tyrant, a guy who cries about Falco's dash attack. The older the set, the more dash attack you'll see. At the moment though Larry doesn't DA that much but I'll tell you, it's not because "it's bad", it's because he as MK has to play a different game to avoid it's amazingness at punishment (and following up) and that is giving Larry more opportunity for jab and grab pressure; it lets larry get in closer without fearing "attacks" (because dash attack has enough range + length of time the hitbox is out for and trading hits with dash attack is generally always Falco's advantage). Now watch Larry against other players of MK or non-MKs, dash attack, dash attack, dash attack, dash attack, dash attack, and most people's immediate adjustment is shielding more, which isn't how Tyrant/etc avoids it, so they get super *****. The fear of dash attack is OP.

The main thing beyond "punishment" with DA is also how mostly safe it is to use after getting just one successful hit. Oh I hit with ftilt? yes dash attack. Oh i hit with lasers and they weren't on the ground? dash attack. Oh I back aired them weak hit? Fast fall into dash attack. Oh I back aired into a strong hit? Dash forward, roll behind them, dash attack. Double hit jab and expect a shield? move away slightly and dash attack the shield drop or spot dodge they do to avoid grab, catches the roll too. hit with side b? you know it's going to be a dash attack. Too bad you can't do anything about it.

tl;dr Dash attack beats everything but a clean shield.

 

[Dre89]

I still don't understand why people are mentioning how unsafe dash attacks are on shield because you would never do one when they can shield anyway.

 

[KillerAP]

I didn't say it might be the fastest in the game O.o
You're also completely ignoring the high rewards that come out of ZSS' dash attack and you're looking solely at how punishable it is on block. I'm also having trouble believing that Diddy's and Kirby's DAs are only -10 on block ; I'd like the actual value if possible but that's beside the point.
Yes, a poorly executed dash attack from ZSS (ie one that gets blocked) is pretty bad. Using it properly (ie actually hitting the opponent with it like you should) makes it really good, and is not very hard to do at all, when you consider both ZSS' great running speed and the fact that it's frame 6. She can get it out of a few air releases, out of lasers, out of dsmash, and you know...pretty much all whiffed standing grabs or dash grabs can be punished by it rather easily.

jale

 

[Dekillsage]

Pretty sure you can beat dash attack with both grab or an attack.... oh well

 

[Jabejazz]

DA on spot-dodge happy people is pure sex.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I once landed Dthrow -> Dash Attack twice in one game against a Peach as D3

Also sniped him with a few Gordos

I should pick up D3

 

[Dark.Pch]

All I am gonna sat here is I really don't care anymore what people think of my character or where she is in the tier list. I'm gonna let people say and think what they want. Cause for one thing, I have been letting people off way too easy when they play me. I realized this when from playing with a top melee player. As well as other good melee players in the community trying to help out the kid. Here is what I realized In terms of my game in brawl

- I let people get back on the stage for free. Cause i don't properly edgeguard characters well enough. I get people off the stage alot and then I let them on for free. I am not abusing the many creative ways Peach can give people problems off stage. Nor am I patient with my edguards, cause people get right threw me or I end up in a bad position. I play like a coward alot cause of fear messing up the edgueeguards.

- I don't pressure well enough when I get close to someone and have them blocking. I leave too many gaps and sometimes give up space for no reason. Peach is annoying up close and her best trait. I can't do much from mid/full screen (This is why Marth is my demon as of right now. If I start being safe while staying in his face, I would do alot better and not lose to so many brain death marths that just do stuff and hope for the best) I need to stay on top of someone as much as I can.

- Need to add ground floating to pressure and my OoS options. I hardly do this.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All the stuff I have said Peach can do, I hardly do it to anyone. Even when I am being a beast in friendlies. I am still not abusing most of what I say she can do in terms of how and why she is as good as I been saying for years. I can't sit here and calm so many things if I play so much like a coward. Im too afraid to get hit. This has been my problem for years. Thus I have never learned to edgeguard the cast well with a character I know like the back of my hand. And if I do, I never do it cause of fear. Another problem that I though was not serious until my last 2 tournies is me eating. I usually go to tournies tired/hungry. I really don't eat or sleep much before leaving. I try to fight it off each time at tournaments So I tend to have no patients. And just lost to stuff I already know better about. Really with characters. I know how to deal with every camping situation in this game to get the win. But with lil to no energy in the body............yea.....

So from now on, I am no longer defending this character. People can say and think many things in terms of options vs her or even match ups. They could be completely wrong and I can prove it as usual, but won't. People can say this mid or low tier is better then her and I won't say anything. The only thing I would do is answer specific questions about Peach as I usually do. But if it would lead to some debate or opinion, I am not gonna say a word.

So with that said, this list I made, Im gonna currently work on it. Now I am actually relearning my character again. I can't let fear hold me back. It has for so many years. and I realize just how much just from being trained by melee players. And something that Bum (legendary DK player from melee) said to me last nite. So i'm gonna but most of my time on this and not these debates. It's pointless and people will just be childish to show off and think they are cool online. Wish I would have listen to Wes and the others long ago. I wasted so much time. I could of had all this down already and let let people get away with so much crap. Once I get all this down (and finally start eating/resting before tournaments) I'll be doing some stuff. And people will still have the same mindset of peach. Which I will take full advantage of cause they won't be use to any of this and having a much more harder time then usual. hey should have payed closer attention to what I been saying this whole time.

That is all.

 

[Tesh]

Anyone remember saviorslegacy from the sheik boards?

That guy and dark peach are like...the same person.

 

[Minwu]

im not going to lie anymore guys. NO im NOT HAPPY that yoshi is only mid tier.i hate it .i hate this videogame,today was the worst day ever and then they have to make yoshi bottom off D tier... im done with this $%#&. my stepdad woke me up at noon and told me that my turtle die of cancer. then at breakfast he kissed my mom right in front of me and she asked me how i was doing. I HATE YOU MOM THATS HOW IM DOING I JUST WANT TO DISAPPEAR

 

[pidgezero_one]

stfu

 

[Supreme Dirt]

stuff.

Your argument was that Dedede dominating mid-tier tourneys - which heavily implies that he beats the majority of mid-tier - does not mean that he is significantly better than mid-tier.

 

[infiniteV115]

That's correct. Top tier MUs matter a heck of a lot more than mid-tier MUs. If DDD does significantly worse against the top tiers than other mid-tier chars while still beating mid-tier solidly, he's not significantly better than the rest of mid-tier, unless you're talking about the metagame of mid-tier tournaments.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Happy Monday Everyone!

[collapse="how i feel every day of the week"]

[/collapse]

 

[FourStar]

i still wonder why a lot of people hate on the chu. he is a great character if you don't suck with him. and he's more respectable to play if the other guy doesn't suck....

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I laughed reading "iDA" over the last few pages
Is there any basic action in this game that doesn't have an AT-esque name.

Reminds me of that flame dash video from 08 lol, and the windmill of fury

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Anyone remember saviorslegacy from the sheik boards?

Ah, I wonder what that guy is doing now. Probably traded playing smash for shooting people with all the guns he owned. Good times 4-5 years ago

 

[pidgezero_one]

I laughed reading "iDA" over the last few pages
Is there any basic action in this game that doesn't have an AT-esque name.

Reminds me of that flame dash video from 08 lol, and the windmill of fury

I propose we rename "walking" to "slow-dashing" or "SDing" for short

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That is all.

Why did you write this many words - almost entirely about yourself - that aren't related at all to the discussion that was being had in a thread about tier lists?

Happy Monday Everyone!

Best comic ever? Best comic ever.

 

[Luco]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF2qhWJOzYo

*sigh*

Lucas really does get his nice results right AFTER a new tier list...

 

[NickRiddle]

Lucas winning in MD/VA doesn't make him not trash.
It just shows how good the region is.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF2qhWJOzYo

*sigh*

Lucas really does get his nice results right AFTER a new tier list...

Lucas won a tournament?

BETTER MOVE HIM TO TOP TIER

(completely serious btw, if that came off as sarcastic)

 

[Luco]

Lucas winning in MD/VA doesn't make him not trash.
It just shows how good the region is.

My argument is that he's got other results.... eh well.

I'm aussie so I don't realllyyy know the regions that well.

A sec, i'm going to look something up.

 

[Jabejazz]

Lucas winning in MD/VA doesn't make him not trash.
It just shows how good the region is.

Pretty much this. Pinkfresh is pretty much Based God of Lucas.

That's correct. Top tier MUs matter a heck of a lot more than mid-tier MUs. If DDD does significantly worse against the top tiers than other mid-tier chars while still beating mid-tier solidly, he's not significantly better than the rest of mid-tier, unless you're talking about the metagame of mid-tier tournaments.

I dunno man.

I understand that a competitive player will look at a tier list in order to pick a character that'll help him win tournaments.
That being said, I see a tier list as a way to compare the whole cast between each other. And while it is true that TripleD suffers from a lot of disadvantageous MUs against people above him (then again, a few of his -2s are (I think) toned down to -1 in v3), he's doing amazing against the rest of the cast. As far as establishing a ranking for each character goes, the Ganondorf MU is just as relevant as the MK one, no matter how useless he might be a in tournament setting.

Now I'm not even debating whether TripleD should be "Lower High Tier", "Upper Mid Tier" or "Broken Low Tier", I just don't see a tier list only as a tool to perform well in tournaments.

 

[Luco]

I dunno man.

I understand that a competitive player will look at a tier list in order to pick a character that'll help him win tournaments.
That being said, I see a tier list as a way to compare the whole cast between each other. And while it is true that TripleD suffers from a lot of disadvantageous MUs against people above him (then again, a few of his -2s are (I think) toned down to -1 in v3), he's doing amazing against the rest of the cast. As far as establishing a ranking for each character goes, the Ganondorf MU is just as relevant as the MK one, no matter how useless he might be a in tournament setting.

Now I'm not even debating whether TripleD should be "Lower High Tier", "Upper Mid Tier" or "Broken Low Tier", I just don't see a tier list only as a tool to perform well in tournaments.

I agree but I think you have to take it in context. It's like saying Ganondorf is amazing... without considering the rest of the cast. The ganondorf MU (gee i'm using ganondorf in examples a lot today hey?) would be relevant if it wasn't already known that he suffered against everyone else, is thus the worst and happens to get no credibility. I think you just have to take it with a grain of salt because the tier list IMO reflects how characters are compared to each other, you can't accurately do it without considering context, right?

Or... wrong...? I dunno if i'm rambling and going in circles or not. :/

 

[Diddy Kong]

Best dash attack:

 

[Jabejazz]

Well Ganondorf and MK are extremes and polar opposites; they win and lose against no one, respectively. In most fighting games, even bottom tiers have a few winning or even MUs, which still make them relevant when it comes to ranking the cast. In this case, you could say Ganondorf is completely irrelevant, which I understand. But you still have to take him into account when you're ranking someone. While everyone is above him, people still took the time to compare everyone with Ganon. If he had absolutely no relevance to the tier list, I wouldn't even put it in the tier list in the first place.

I think you just have to take it with a grain of salt

I am merely explaining how I see a tier list. I don't really care how the actual tier list turns out to be.

 

[Luco]

Well Ganondorf and MK are extremes and polar opposites; they win and lose against no one, respectively. In most fighting games, even bottom tiers have a few winning or even MUs, which still make them relevant when it comes to ranking the cast. In this case, you could say Ganondorf is completely irrelevant, which I understand. But you still have to take him into account when you're ranking someone. While everyone is above him, people still took the time to compare everyone with Ganon. If he had absolutely no relevance to the tier list, I wouldn't even put it in the tier list in the first place.



I am merely explaining how I see a tier list. I don't really care how the actual tier list turns out to be.

Good point.

I actually quite like that way of thinking. Gee I can be really negative at times can't I?

In Dedede's case i'm honestly not sure for other reasons but that can be discussed later.

 

[-DR3W-]

Just kinda hit me that Falco is almost mid tier

 

[Espy Rose]

Just kinda hit me that Falco is almost mid tier

The best post in this thread.

 

[The Hooded Informant]

It hurts me that neither Marth nor Falco are the best tiers, MK is still top, and Link is still one of the worst.

Tell me, why do you people think that characters are so low or so high? If you would put your places to study characters and tournaments, as well as players, you could come up with a more "official" tier list, rather than the one that is like this. In a professional Link vs Meta Knight battle with the best two players, who would win? Would it be Link? Would it be Meta Knight? Would it be random? See, I know that any match outcome will always be random to most people watching, so saying Meta Knight is still the best, and Link is one of the worst, is all a fallacy.

Tell me this as well, why not make a chart depicting players level of profession, rather than a character? As well, why not make any sort of character analyzer that tells what attributes characters have, like their power, weight, hitbox, ease of use, range, and speed? Surely it must be easier than doing this.

I've studied and played Brawl for the past 5 years, but being the secretive, sadistic ass I am, I will never show you people how a true smasher should play. I do not know where to begin on telling you about my studies of the characters. Since 2001, I have devoted my life on the study of Smash Bros. Listen to inquiry rather than fallacy. I am the only one who has taken the most notes about the Super Smash Bros. series because I went to tournaments, looked at livestreams and pro videos, and even played in some.

Where did all the fun go from the series?