Official SWF Tier List v8

[Dre89]

Uair and dash attack are the only two genuinely good moves Ganondorf have. They're the only two moves that high-top tiers may actually want over what they already have.

He's also not as good at KOing as people make out. The only moves he can hit with reliably at a high level of play are probably uair and dash attack, which are good KO moves when fresh but are likely to be stale. Verm even said he doesn't normally finish off mid-weights until around 120%

 

[Luco]

Uair and dash attack are the only two genuinely good moves Ganondorf have. They're the only two moves that high-top tiers may actually want over what they already have.

He's also not as good at KOing as people make out. The only moves he can hit with reliably at a high level of play are probably uair and dash attack, which are good KO moves when fresh but are likely to be stale. Verm even said he doesn't normally finish off mid-weights until around 120%

Dash attack? I personally think ZSS has one of the best dash attacks because it avoids things like bananas and it combos into stuff. ^_^

Ganon's dash attack is average IMO but... that's just my opinion.

His Uair is pretty nice though. Definitely a fine move.

 

[Sunnysunny]

I'm sure alot of other characters are envious of that side-b of his as well~ It's a shame Ganondorf has next to no mobility or spacing moves to threaten with it effectively, or put the opponent in the air above him to chase with his U-air. Ya know. Outside of dash attack maybe.

Damn.
Imagine a move like Ganon's side-b on a character like Pikachu.

 

[Luco]

I'm sure alot of other characters are envious of that side-b of his as well~ It's a shame Ganondorf has next to no mobility or spacing moves to threaten with it effectively, or put the opponent in the air above him to chase with his U-air. Ya know. Outside of dash attack maybe.

Damn.
Imagine a move like Ganon's side-b on a character like Pikachu.

Ganon has some fantastic set-ups in teams though. His side-B leads to slam locks via jab or tilts or whatnot through many characters, especially seeing how you can't tech it iirc yea?

 

[Tesh]

When you have something resembling a camp game and some safe ranged attacks in ADDITION to massive power for hard reads (like lucas), or a beastly dangerous aerial game like (Ness) + awesome kill options (killing people at 120 with a grab is amazing in this game), Bad frame data on a grab release wont put you in bottom tier.

Ganon has almost nothing going for him. Frame 20-30 moves that kill at absurdly low percents are a great asset to a character (lucas, snake, ivysaur, DDD), but not when you weren't equipped with the quicker, safer moves that can allow you a shot at landing something slow

 

[Sunnysunny]

Ganon has some fantastic set-ups in teams though. His side-B leads to slam locks via jab or tilts or whatnot through many characters, especially seeing how you can't tech it iirc yea?

Yup.
It's a an utterly broken move on anyone but Ganon.

Suddenly shifts momentum.
Unblockable.
Good damage
Forces the foe into a tech chase situation.
Has true follow ups if it were on a good character.
Can suicide stocks with it.

It's almost as if the developers nerfed Ganon into the ground so that this move wouldn't be as broken as it could be. Like he was built around it or something.

 

[Dre89]

Sideb is dodgeable or punishable on reaction, so the only time Gdorf can land it is if the opponent commits to something first. Not saying he'll never land it at high levels of play, because he does, but the opponent usually has very little reason to commit to an option against Gdorf.

Luco- Gdorf's iDA is good (it should really only be used an iDA) because it's quick, and has good range and priority, going through a lot of projectiles. It's great for punishing landings, and is a decent KO move if fresh. It also has vertical knockback, so you can harass them with uair or punish their landing with a pivot grab, fake-out sideb or another iDA. I never said it was the best in the game, but it's definitely up there.

 

[Sunnysunny]

I know, I know, i'm just saying if Ganondorf wasn't such a telegraphed charactered as far as movement went it'd be a nice mix up with much greater rewards on someone with more mobility or less move start up.

Dorfs dash attacks legit.

Man.
I'm starting to get a little bummed out now.

Fingers crossed Namco manages to make the dude usable next game.

 

[Tesh]

Sunny I always had that theory too. Every single moveset in the game aside from his would be broken with that move. 80% of the cast would have true 0-death combos or infinites from it because he has a +8-16 frame advantage on everyone. Meaning pretty much everyone would be able to side B-jablock-side b-smash attack. It would honestly be so easy and so broken that a standard jab alone would probably skyrocket him into mid tier just because people would HAVE to avoid side B the way they avoid ICs grab.


Also the only move thats fast enough to hit everyone is a jab that hits absurdly high off of the ground

Side B is like frame 16, thats slow, but didn't P1 say a few pages back that diddy kong's side B is frame 19 and still hits people? Not to mention that any character with an otherwise decent moveset can land slow moves based on apprehension and fear of quicker ones.

 

[Luco]

Side B is like frame 16, thats slow, but didn't P1 say a few pages back that diddy kong's side B is frame 19 and still hits people? Not to mention that any character with an otherwise decent moveset can land slow moves based on apprehension and fear of quicker ones.

Haha yeah, I remember once when my brother and I were in tournament in doubles as ditto Lucas, we were in Loser's finals and we had to catch an early train back home so we decided to just mess around and spam Usmash and everything. For some reason, so many of them actually hit, it was somewhat ridiculous.

What was funny was that even doing that we won the first match. Then the second/third matches we lost. :3

 

[smashkng]

The biggest problem with Ganon is having nothing safe on block combined with no real grab besides side b, which is laggy and telegraphed like Dre said. Curse Sakurai for making a character with such large arms have the worst grab range in the game. He has just about 0 OoS options too. Ganon is terrible in any zone except mid range. The thing with Diddy's side b is that he moves much faster during the move and it has less animation to react to than Ganon's (similar to Link's Fsmash which is 15 frames slow but looks unreactable due to an almost unnoticeable start-up animation).

 

[Luco]

Yeah Ganon doesn't have much safe on block does he? That's why I wasn't as impressed with his dash attack... he usually doesn't move past the shield does he?

 

[Dre89]

But the only time you would ever dash attack a grounded opponent is if you dashed-stopped to bait a commitment- dash attacked. Most times you'll be punishing a landing or a jump.

It's like saying that nado is bad because you can just shield it. A good MK will never just nado a neutral opponent that hasn't committed to anything. Same with Gdorf's DA.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Holy **** you guys for the longest time i was all like "shut the hell up PSABR is not a smash bros ripoff" until today i realized that Fat Princess has an alt costume where her dress is yellow and her hair is brown

 

[Luco]

But the only time you would ever dash attack a grounded opponent is if you dashed-stopped to bait a commitment- dash attacked. Most times you'll be punishing a landing or a jump.

It's like saying that nado is bad because you can just shield it. A good MK will never just nado a neutral opponent that hasn't committed to anything. Same with Gdorf's DA.

Good point, I concede.

Yes I can see it being used to cover landings - most DAs do that rather well.

 

[DeLux]

I see good MK nado people at neutral all the time despite them not committing to things lol

A lot of why nado is good is because they CAN do that at neutral and then still have a multilayered option read scenario to escape punishment free on a lot of characters

 

[Luco]

I see good MK nado people at neutral all the time despite them not committing to things lol

A lot of why nado is good is because they CAN do that at neutral and then still have a multilayered option read scenario to escape punishment free on a lot of characters

I find it so ironic that crouch, one of the least-considered options for like everything, is often a solution for this move, especially for chars like ZSS and snake because they can move whilst doing so.

And you see people like Salem doing it too. It's funny as all heck. :D

 

[NickRiddle]

Crouching is broken, people just don't understand the concept of smaller hurtboxes.

 

[Vaati]

With my first post I didn't want to say that Ganondorf needs to be higher in the tier... he is pretty much crap. He has no speed, can't grap and jumps like a penguin. I just wanted to say that SOME people just look at the tier and say "OMFG META KNIGHT IS SUPER GOOOOOD" and stick with him... I think it is funnier to just use the character you like. I really enjoy facing a MK because I consider it a challenge. And I really don't approve banning him from tournaments... if someone wants to use MK then let him use MK.

 

[infiniteV115]

Dash attack? I personally think ZSS has one of the best dash attacks because it avoids things like bananas and it combos into stuff. ^_^

I'm happy to see this being acknowledged by someone who isn't a ZSS main

 

[Z'zgashi]

@Ganon talk: well Ganon's fair was supposed to auto cancel right after the hitbox was out, which wouldve given him a safe move on block and made him MUCH better, but a coding mistake pretty much destroyed that move. If I remember correctly, in the code, someone put an extra 0 after the frame which it SHOULD have canceled on in the coding, so instead of autocanceling like, frame 36, it says 360 in the code, hence why that move has ridiculous lag when you land even way after its ended.

If he had that fixed, he'd easily be at the least the top of low tier, and probably low mid with Ness/Yoshi.

 

[SHAWDY]

One thing I find really funny is the constant change between Jigglypuff and Link. They have been swapping back and forth for the longest time now haha.

 

[Sunnysunny]

With my first post I didn't want to say that Ganondorf needs to be higher in the tier... he is pretty much crap. He has no speed, can't grap and jumps like a penguin.

Nonesense!
Dedede's recovery is much better then Ganon's!

 

[Jabejazz]

Crouching is broken, people just don't understand the concept of smaller hurtboxes.

TripleD's crouch is debatably the most broken taunt in the game.

-Combos into itself
-Combos into DTilt or DownB
-Arguably the best move to bait people with
-Literally the living concept of "Swag"

 

[NickRiddle]

Swag is a stupid word, and you should feel stupid.

 

[Dekillsage]

Why you hating on his swag!!!!

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Official BBR Tier list V8: Swag edition

SS: MetaSwag
S: Swag Climbers
A+: Swagimar, Diddy Swag
A-: Swaggarth, Solid Swag, Swaog
B: Pikaswag, Zero Swag Samus,Swagio
C+:Swagcario, King SwagSwagSwag, Swag Link
C: Wolf O'Swaggell, Fox McSwag, Mr. Swag & Swag, Kid Swagarus
C-: S.W.A.G., Princess Swag
D: Swagy, Donkey Swag, Swagnic, Swagike, Swagda, Swageik, Nesswag, Yoswag
E: Swaguigi, Swag Trainer, Luswag
F: Swagario, Swagmus, Bowswag, Captain Swag, Linkswag, Swagglypuff, Zelswag, Swagondorf

 

[Tesh]

@Ganon talk: well Ganon's fair was supposed to auto cancel right after the hitbox was out, which wouldve given him a safe move on block and made him MUCH better, but a coding mistake pretty much destroyed that move. If I remember correctly, in the code, someone put an extra 0 after the frame which it SHOULD have canceled on in the coding, so instead of autocanceling like, frame 36, it says 360 in the code, hence why that move has ridiculous lag when you land even way after its ended.

If he had that fixed, he'd easily be at the least the top of low tier, and probably low mid with Ness/Yoshi.

IIRC it wasn't right after the hitbox came out. It was just supposed to auto cancel out of a full hop (instead of having to full hop and perfectly time a double jump to get it to end before you land), which would make it a little better, but not remotely safe. It would still hit way to high to function as a spacing move against short characters and at best it would function just like Bair (which is not safe) Swagondorf would still be where he is now because fair just isn't a practical enough option to help him in most situations.

btw, I think "swaggy kong" would have been better for one of them

also sqagco

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

IIRC it wasn't right after the hitbox came out. It was just supposed to auto cancel out of a full hop (instead of having to full hop and perfectly time a double jump to get it to end before you land), which would make it a little better, but not remotely safe. It would still hit way to high to function as a spacing move against short characters and at best it would function just like Bair (which is not safe) Swagondorf would still be where he is now because fair just isn't a practical enough option to help him in most situations.

btw, I think "swaggy kong" would have been better for one of them

also sqagco

wtf is sqaco supposed to be?

Are you trying to suggest something for Flaoc? Because I think Swaog is already perfect for Flaoc

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm happy to see this being acknowledged by someone who isn't a ZSS main

Yea, ZSS has probably the second best dash attack in the game after Snake. MK's might be better just because MK has so many other tools that work in sync with it, but ZSS' dash attack is top 3 at least.

 

[Tesh]

Yea, ZSS has probably the second best dash attack in the game after Snake. MK's might be better just because MK has so many other tools that work in sync with it, but ZSS' dash attack is top 3 at least.

Better than
The ones that trip?
The ones with no many hits and no lag?
The ones that can semi spike?
The ones that kill?
The ones that kill REALLY EARLY?
The ones that cover alot of distance really fast?
The ones that enable a usable DACUS?

Whats so great about MK's? Hitbox is okay, but isnt it kind of detrimental to have a lasting hitbox that will clash with aerial (making it worse for catching landings?)

Really hers sets up for stuff about as well as Captain Falcon, Lucario, Fox , Mario etc. Its not great, but her quick moves up close let her combo off of it SOMETIMES.

 

[Dekillsage]

To answer your question tesh

Yes.

 

[infiniteV115]

Really hers sets up for stuff about as well as Captain Falcon, Lucario, Fox , Mario etc. Its not great, but her quick moves up close let her combo off of it SOMETIMES.

Are you talking about ZSS' dash attack? O.o

 

[Tesh]

whats so great about it that puts her above all those other traits. she has a super laggy dash attack that fluctuates between being unsafe on hit and barely comboing into frame 1-4 attacks. There is no spectacular disjoint, speed or power.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS' dash attack is IIRC the fastest in the game, has the fastest interrupt time of any dash attack in any smash game, and links to anything 6 frames or lower from ~40% to around 90%, depending on character. That means it combos into itself, utilt, dtilt, and jab. Dash attack combos can deal, practially speaking, up to 40% on their own (2-3 dash attacks into uptilt). Anything that links to dtilt or uptilt is good because it puts the dude above ZSS. After 90% it combos into even more things if you follow DI. It also has ridiculous range, making it an excellent punish and landing trap. Frankly the only bad thing about it is that it can be unsafe on shield at long range, but at close ranges or at the end of the move, it's reasonably safe. It picks up items easily and safely, too.

Frankly, ZSS' dash attack is good because it broke so many rules that have always applied to dash attacks. They basically deleted it in Project M because it was so broken (they turned it into Fox/falco's dash attack more or less).

The only thing it really lacks is kill power. The hitbox is enormous, too, although it's not especially disjointed.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Almost every dash attack in this game is awful. Exceptions are probably ZSS, Snake and Sonic. lol

Meta Knight too probably.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Diddy, Falco, Fox?

 

[Spelt]

Official BBR Tier list V8: Swag edition

SS: MetaSwag
S: Swag Climbers
A+: Swagimar, Diddy Swag
A-: Swaggarth, Solid Swag, Swaog
B: Pikaswag, Zero Swag Samus,Swagio
C+:Swagcario, King SwagSwagSwag, Swag Link
C: Wolf O'Swaggell, Fox McSwag, Mr. Swag & Swag, Kid Swagarus
C-: S.W.A.G., Princess Swag
D: Swagy, Donkey Swag, Swagnic, Swagike, Swagda, Swageik, Nesswag, Yoswag
E: Swaguigi, Swag Trainer, Luswag
F: Swagario, Swagmus, Bowswag, Captain Swag, Linkswag, Swagglypuff, Zelswag, Swagondorf

I think reading this post just gave me an aneurysm. Filled with rabies.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I forgot about Diddy. Falco's is alright, same with Fox. Certainly not as amazing as Snake or ZSS though.

 

[Dre89]

Y

I forgot about Diddy. Falco's is alright, same with Fox. Certainly not as amazing as Snake or ZSS though.

You're underating a lot of DAs. Plenty of them are fine as iDAs, which is the only way you should be using dash attacks unless you're picking up a nana or something in a safe position.