Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean, I hear the "PT is garbage, but I don't know how to play against him" excuse a lot, and there's a lot to be said for it. I still think that many people underestimate the character, but, I don't think he's realistically capable of reliably beating a knowledgeable, say, Marth.

 

[Doc King]

lol it's like you people aren't reading my posts. lol It's whatever tho.

You guys say characters strengths based on what you have witnessed. The metagame should always be evolving. And I just explained about lucas's hard matchups. That still doesn't mean other parts of the data isn't wrong. I explained that. Reread my posts.

That's all I'm saying.

And I don't see what is wrong with Peepee beating me in tourney in 2010. He is a really smart player. I didn't have the skills to beat a smart Marth back then. Everyone hopefully should be growing in powerlevel. Grow after every defeat and analyze what you did wrong.

For the longest I went through a small depressed state hating singles! I said there was no hope for my character and agreed with this terrible MU chart. At my old power level there was just nothing I could do. The advantages were too much. I said forget singles!! I will just stick to being a doubles master!!

But then two people changed the way I play smash at Genesis 2. Fow told me to just shut the heck up and get better. I used to argue with him and say "but you are not doing that! You are picking up a pocket mk!".

Coach Pane told me to focus on my opponents habits.

I eventually listened to both and went to the hyperbolic time chamber. I created a unique playstyle for lucas and even created a new AT. I don't care if people don't call it that and agree with it. But it does enhance lucas's spacing/quickness abilities. This is crucial because Lucas is a powerful and quick character. The only issue is that he lacks priority in his attacks(Most other moves in the game will go through lucas's attacks even if we start our attack first. We can even be grabbed through some of our moves!). So this new AT helps greatly! I was now able to compete against top level players!
I also started to try and read my opponents. With my new playstyle I turned Super Saiyan.

After Ktar6 something clicked and I had mastered reading my opponents habits. This is when I reached Super Saiyan 2.

After a few other tourneys I developed unique setups for specific stages. This is when I reached Super Saiyan 3.

When I compare my lucas to other lucas players I see that I have invented the unique things that I do. Many people haven't witnessed it or know what is going on. Lucas is now a better character than what you have seen in the past. Stop judging him based on what u have witnessed. I gained the will of fire and now believe anything is possible. I didn't give up on singles and enter it at tourneys.

So my point is with mastery of the basic fundamentals of the game and the lucas I've created the matchup chart is wrong. I've explained it like 3 times.

One more example, it shows -1 for falco. Why is that? A lucas who has mastery over his AT's isn't afraid of the spike. The matchup is actually 0. The first time I played a falco offline was at collision against Pelca. He beat me 1-3. (i beat his snake and he 2-0'd me with falco. close matches). Then with the experience I had gained I 2-0'd him at SKTAR.
I also went even with Larry the best falco in the US in friendlies. I created a strategy for falco and it is working so far.

I don't get what being the better player means. Does it mean that the player has taken the time to develop strategies, has learned how to read his opponent, and utilize his character to the fullest more than his opponent? Even if that is so that shouldn't take away from the character. The character still needs to have tools to make it happen.

In the past I didn't think lucas had the tools. Now he does.

lol @ Falco being even for Lucas.

I'm just curious, what's the AT? More camping?

-______- I already explained. I've only been to one tourney since Apex and we didn't play.
You must mean alot of months ago or like a year. I don't remember playing u. No offense but you are always begging me to play. Maybe I did alot of months ago. But I don't remember.
Definitely something I didn't want/care to do. I don't like singles or care to test my might against impossible matchups unless its the best of the best with that character. That is my personal want, to test my power level against them.

@Verm - Ganon is slow. Lucas is quick. Marth's fair also beats all of lucas's attacks. But with lucas's quickness, mastery of the basic fundamentals of the game, and the ability to read your opponent you can get around the deadly fair with lucas. As shown in that match I posted. Yes it is hard but that is where your mental power comes in. You are a low tier user so u understand but for everyone else...

You know how you feel when you play an ice-climbers? Well for many matches for low tiers that is the mental power we must put forth. If we don't then one grab can maybe change the game. You are put in a terrible situation, gain heavy %, or are dead. Just like an ice-climbers matchup.

Marth is quick too so Marth will be able to get those quick fairs and up airs on Lucas.

You're not making any sense because you're basing matchups completely on your experiences. It's like saying Pikachu is 2-4th on the tier list because of Esam and climbers beat mk +1 because of a couple of tournaments with vinnie and esam.

Wth? I'm not insulting you and don't think I am the man. We are talking about lucas right now and his info on the matchup chart. I'm explaining why it is wrong. I'm still growing as a pla

I think you are just joking haha. If you know me you know I don't care about singles. It wouldn't make me upset wth? And yea before apex is along time ago not a few months back.

I'm not being passive aggressive. That is the truth. You ask me any chance you get to mm me like right now. -____-. And the only person to **** me in a set is m2k. He straight out bodied me. I don't remember the match but I doubt you *****/wrecked me haha. And I've already told you I don't care about "putting" up. I don't play this game for money or for bragging rights. I play this game for my own personal goals. lololol .
See me in tourney if you want to face the fire bender! I don't mm in singles unless it is for my own personal goals. I don't care otherwise. Singles is lame.

Low tier scrub salty of singles because your character sucks in singles.

Mekos, I don't think that anyone worth anything in this thread thinks you are a bad player, but even if you outplay the hell out of Will, that doesn't mean Lucas beats DK.

MU experience is actually a factor, and you're going to run into that a lot because you play Lucas. Think about it for a second. You are the only really active Lucas player of recent times and one of about three Lucas players that are worth playing. You WILL run into people who do not know the MU when you get on a national stage. You abuse it and you are right to. You succeed and people notice, but the fact that MU experience has something to do with it does remain. It does result people having a lower impression of your skill level than they would otherwise, but doesn't necessarily mean that they are wrong about what your skill level is. You're playing a low/borderline mid tier character. You're playing an uncommon low/borderline mid tier character. Of COURSE you're going to run into the MU experience john more often than any high tier player. It's a john because at the end of the day, a win is a win, but it shouldn't be discredited.

Don't forget the people who saw your recent performances and tell you "good ****, Mekos." A lot of them will also point to MU experience as a factor.

You're a good player. I look forward to MMing you at WHOBO.

Once ppl learn the matchup they will realize that Lucas really sucks and Mekos will eventually pocket mk like Fow did.

 

[Player-1]

Mekos for best MK

 

[_Kadaj_]

He doesn't think he's the man because he knows I'm the man.

 

[Judo777]

The chick in J's avatar is hot. Who is she?

 

[Claire Diviner]

I mean, I hear the "PT is garbage, but I don't know how to play against him" excuse a lot, and there's a lot to be said for it. I still think that many people underestimate the character, but, I don't think he's realistically capable of reliably beating a knowledgeable, say, Marth.

Well, the MU is -3 for Pokémon Trainer apparently. Still, I can't help but feel that Squirtle has a better chance at beating Marth than Ivysaur and Charizard, what with its speed and quick aerials, but that's just my guess.

 

[Myollnir]

^Grab release though. And range.

 

[Mekos]

I agree Reflex 100%. But at the end of the day smash is a mental game. That is why theory is fun but not reliable.

For example, many times in smash if you get the lead and start camping. The other player breaks mentally and starts going more aggro than they should in certain situations. I've made this mistake many times myself. But that is just a small example of the smash being a mental game. There are so many factors other than what is currently known about the character. Me abusing this small example is how I win most of my matches.

Lucas has a terrible time approaching. So I put 110% mental strength into getting the first %. It is sooo so crucial. Many players break mentally from this small tactic. And from the very beginning I have control for the rest of the match.

Smash is a beautiful game in that sense.

 

[Tesh]

I agree Reflex 100%. But at the end of the day smash is a mental game. That is why theory is fun but not reliable.

For example, many times in smash if you get the lead and start camping. The other player breaks mentally and starts going more aggro than they should in certain situations. I've made this mistake many times myself. But that is just a small example of the smash being a mental game. There are so many factors other than what is currently known about the character. Me abusing this small example is how I win most of my matches.

Lucas has a terrible time approaching. So I put 110% mental strength into getting the first %. It is sooo so crucial. Many players break mentally from this small tactic. And from the very beginning I have control for the rest of the match.

Smash is a beautiful game in that sense.

Funny I think thats one of the worst things about playing Brawl. Although I guess it does seem pretty beautiful from one side...

 

[Mekos]

If you mean the camping part...then I agree!!

That is why I hate singles! And don't care for it. But that is how you win in singles in this game most of the time unless you are mk or lucario.
I was talking about the mental aspect of smash.

Smash singles is soo lame that I can only muster that lameness in tourney personally. If it's not tourney I'm going to have "fun" and approach.

 

[-LzR-]

At least singles isn't about using the same damn team tactic for 8 minutes for the win.

 

[Doc King]

Brawl singles and doubles suck. End of discussion.

 

[-LzR-]

Singles are amazing, I just don't understand how some people prefer doubles over it, though doubles is kinda allright, but I don't even enter doubles tournies anymore really.

 

[#HBC | J]

The chick in J's avatar is hot. Who is she?

*shrug*

Just another hot chick with glasses.

Probably gonna have to look up who she is because you aren't the first to ask this haha.

*Semi-on-topic*: I much prefer doubles to singles but singles is still fun.

 

[Espy Rose]

At least singles isn't about using the same damn team tactic for 8 minutes for the win.

I'm pretty sure some people would argue that singles is just about using the same 1v1 tactic for 8 minutes for the win.

 

[Claire Diviner]

^Grab release though. And range.

Oh, I didn't know Squirtle had a grab-release issue. I definitely knew about the range issue.

 

[C.J.]

Yeah, Marth gets GR->
tipper fsmash, regrab, dair, fair, nair, uair, DB, dash attack, probably other things.

He gets bodied when he gets grabbed.

 

[Espy Rose]

Doesn't Squirtle get spiked from GR?
Final Destination must be awful.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Well, it's no wonder the MU's -3; Ivysaur can't do much to Marth, and once off stage, there's no coming back, and Charizard's just a large target. I wonder if the MU would've been better had the GR issue didn't exist.

 

[Myollnir]

@C.J. : tippered dsmash lol
Grab release to Dair is Squirtle's biggest issue. It'll kill him at like 30-40% and can't be SDI + tech'd unless the stage is YI or something like that.

Squirtle is kinda good at not getting grabbed but that's when Marth's range starts being a huge problem. Extremely difficult MU, really. :/

 

[Claire Diviner]

Doesn't Wario suffer more or less the same problem with Marth?

 

[Tesh]

Squirtle gets CGed to the ledge then Daired. He is also light enough to die to tipper Fsmash under 70%. Wario won't get really die under 120 if he gets grabbed in the middle of the stage.

Not to mention Wario gains the benefit of waiting a long time to land 1 combo. Squirtle is exactly the opposite.

 

[Myollnir]

Yes, but he doesn't have any problem with Marth's Dair because he gets hit by it too high so he can SDI/tech it.

@Sol : Yeah, right. Charizard does the best out of the trio, it's between -1 and -2 imo.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I guess that's why it's -2 instead of -3. Makes sense.

 

[-LzR-]

Doesn't Reflex think Ivy does decent vs Marth or am I totally wrong? Ivy can at least kinda challenge Marth, though the damage will be in Marths favor

 

[Myollnir]

I don't know about his opinion on the MU.

"Decent" is a bit optimistic imo. Ivysaur can't really deal with Marth's pressure.

 

[-LzR-]

Decent as in doesn't get hit and gimped like most ppl say.

 

[Myollnir]

Yeah, Ivysaur is underestimated. Ivy is definitely not bottom tier or something like this lol.

 

[Espy Rose]

I'd think Ivysaur would do fine until it gets pressured to the ledge. I don't know how Ivysaur gets back on stage under those circumstances.

 

[Claire Diviner]

It's not like Ivysaur has a lot of options when coming back onto the stage outside of tethering.

 

[Myollnir]

I'd think Ivysaur would do fine until it gets pressured to the ledge. I don't know how Ivysaur gets back on stage under those circumstances.

I don't know either.

@Sol : As long as I don't get hit by moves like MK's Dair, ICs' Dtilt, etc... I don't usually have problems when recovering, Ivy can Dair/Bair/SideB. But when you get hit while you're offstage, you're dead.

 

[Claire Diviner]

@Sol : As long as I don't get hit by moves like MK's Dair, ICs' Dtilt, etc... I don't usually have problems when recovering, Ivy can Dair/Bair/SideB. But when you get hit while you're offstage, you're dead.

Well, yeah, Ivysaur can fight back with Bair, Side B, etc., but it has nothing for an actual recover option outside of Up B, which is tether only, which is the point I'm trying to make, I guess. The same could be said for Olimar too, but he does have the god armor that is Pikmin Order, and I think his second jump is better than Ivy's, but I don't really know that for sure, as I play neither character myself.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ivysaur does okay against Marth cause Marth's advantageous MUs are gimmicky, like a better DDD.

Instead of losing every MU and ****** some; Marth goes even every MU and ***** some.

Mid risk, mid/high reward spacing is ehhhh

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Olimar also actually hops when he uses UpB, so if he can't tether the ledge, he can still get a bit of a 3rd jump. Also, whistle armor.

Ivy... doesn't have any of that, so he just gets butt****ed offstage.

 

[-LzR-]

And Oli doesn't have landing lag on his upB. Ivy though is totally ****ed in that case, if he somehow lands onstage.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah, Ivysaur does alright against Marth because of being able to compete with range, but Marth has control all the time. It's annoying.

Recovery isn't that big of a deal. Unlike Olimar, Ivysaur can grab the ledge during the transition to special fall, so "just hold the ledge" doesn't work as well against Ivysaur. Ivysaur still gets a "hop" like Olimar, but she can't move horizontally during it.

 

[Shaya]

Squirtle has a critical flaw as a character that not too many people are aware of. And while his 'getting gay grabbed' is a flaw that is often the result of this critical flaw, that critical flaw applies to every character Squirtle can't just ftilt to win the match up in.

So Squirtle:

1. Secretly terrible character flaw most people aren't aware of
2. Fatigue
3. Gets grab gayed by soooo many.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'll just continue F-Tilting, Shaya.

ALSO, I'LL BEAT YOU

 

[Shaya]

You probably would.

I just know when I'll grab you with like 95% accuracy.

 

[Claire Diviner]

The difference between Ivy and Marth, though, would be the speed of their aerials. Yeah, Ivy's Nair and Bair come out faster than its other aerials, but the rest either come out more slowly, or have a pretty "meh" hitbox, not to mention to lag on Uair and Dair when they whiff. All of Marth's aerials have both good range and great speed. As for ground game, I imagine Marth being stronger due to more versatility and speed, whilst Ivy beats Marth in the grab department.

@Reflex: Ivysaur has a gender all of a sudden? o________O