Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[C.J.]

Reflex has always said that Ivy is a girl.

Shaya, what are you doing- go to sleep.

 

[Shaya]

What CJ? its 6pm.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's worth noting that I have Japanese Brawl at home, where Ivysaur sounds like a girl to me--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYDa7aWrhrk

Either way, it's personal preference, of course, but, since I'm the best PT, what I say goes, OBVIOUSLY.

 

[Claire Diviner]

It's worth noting that I have Japanese Brawl at home, where Ivysaur sounds like a girl to me--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYDa7aWrhrk

Either way, it's personal preference, of course, but, since I'm the best PT, what I say goes, OBVIOUSLY.

It could be the voice of a prepubescent boy.

Spoiler

I do see why you say its female though.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

It's worth noting that I have Japanese Brawl at home, where Ivysaur sounds like a girl to me--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYDa7aWrhrk

Either way, it's personal preference, of course, but, since I'm the best PT, what I say goes, OBVIOUSLY.

Actually, iirc Ivysaurs have differences in genders, and the Ivysaur in Smash is actually a girl

Don't quote me on this though, I may be wrong

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Actually, iirc Ivysaurs have differences in genders, and the Ivysaur in Smash is actually a girl

Don't quote me on this though, I may be wrong

Nope. Female Venusaur has a seed in the center of her flower, but, there's no difference for Ivysaur or Bulbasaur.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

of course they have different genders. how the hell else they gonna **** and spawn? some ***** gotta get the ****

 

[Claire Diviner]

Nope. Female Venusaur has a seed in the center of her flower, but, there's no difference for Ivysaur or Bulbasaur.

Pretty much this. Also, it's interesting to note that Pokémon of the same species have the same voice regardless of gender in most cases. I mean, Ash's Pikachu is in fact a male, yet is voiced by a woman.

 

[Tesh]

So is Ash.

 

[Claire Diviner]

So is Ash.

That's because Ash IS a girl.

Actually, I don't know if this has been pitched or not, but shouldn't each individual PT Pokémon have their own MUs displayed in the Matchup Chart?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Nope. Female Venusaur has a seed in the center of her flower, but, there's no difference for Ivysaur or Bulbasaur.

ah, thank you for correcting me

and I said DON'T quote me

 

[#HBC | Joker]

That's because Ash IS a girl.

Actually, I don't know if this has been pitched or not, but shouldn't each individual PT Pokémon have their own MUs displayed in the Matchup Chart?

No, because fatigue makes it so that you really can't play a full MU with just one pokemon. You'll have to use all 3, or 2 at the very least, unless you body them uber quickly.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

No, because fatigue makes it so that you really can't play a full MU with just one pokemon. You'll have to use all 3, or 2 at the very least, unless you body them uber quickly.

...

 

[Claire Diviner]

No, because fatigue makes it so that you really can't play a full MU with just one pokemon. You'll have to use all 3, or 2 at the very least, unless you body them uber quickly.

I can certainly see that point, but can't help but feel that each Pokémon do have their advantages and weaknesses against certain characters to warrant rating their individual MUs, fatigue aside.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Realistically, the question is, how much does fatigue play a role in each individual matchup?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Realistically, the question is, how much does fatigue play a role in each individual matchup?

I'd imagine its at least a noticeable factor against heavier characters/characters that last forever.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Well, I'm assuming fatigue plays a significant enough role. Doesn't it reduce the Pokémon's kill power, and make them easier to be killed themselves? I would think it's worth doing MU evaluations for each Pokémon; one without fatigue calculated in, another with fatigue, and then round it up into a MU rating average. Either that, or just display their MUs without fatigue being factored in.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Well, I'm assuming fatigue plays a significant enough role. Doesn't it reduce the Pokémon's kill power, and make them easier to be killed themselves? I would think it's worth doing MU evaluations for each Pokémon; one without fatigue calculated in, another with fatigue, and then round it up into a MU rating average. Either that, or just display their MUs without fatigue being factored in.

I think if we did stuff like that, we'd end up with unnecessary stupid **** being on the tier list, like Shielda.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It reduces knockback and damage against the opponent.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I think if we did stuff like that, we'd end up with unnecessary stupid **** being on the tier list, like Shielda.

I don't think Shielda was a stupid addition to the tier list, although I do wonder why they didn't do the same for Melee's tier list. Anyway, I'm not proposing putting each Pokémon on the tier list in a similar vein as Shielda/Zelda/Shiek; I'm merely proposing the display of each individual matchup.

It reduces knockback and damage against the opponent.

That's not nearly as bad as I thought; I also believed it caused the Pokémon to be easier to kill.

 

[da K.I.D.]

The last time I saw zelda and shiek being used in the same match in melee, outside of using zelda to recover, it was in that hacked video of mew2king, where she could transform instantly mid combo.

and i know this is late, but does anybody else see this every time mekos posts?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBw9LdcqvSQ

 

[-LzR-]

Tbh I think Ivysaur doesn't care too much about fatigue. Her metagame is anyways just zoning and keeping the opponent away and rack as much damages as you can until you find an opportunity to switch, which Ivy can do with stuff like Uthrow even if fatigued. Squirtle is totally ****ed by it though.

 

[Luco]

I think beats based on what Yink has told me and she knows the PSI kids.

Actually, Yink assumes that Lucas is playing a certain offensive strategy (she has told me so herself in that she hasn't seen a Lucas playing defensively). After seeing the more defensive style that Mekos and a couple others have displayed it's possible there are more options there than we know. However, that goes the same for Ness, I don't know if he has a way to counter-act this strategy or not.

Not arguing with any of it, just noting that part about how Yink views Lucas. Of course if i'm going to check in this with her next time I talk to her and make sure what i'm saying is correct, seeing as I haven't spoken to her in ages and I could be taking words out of her mouth. >.>

Anyway, i've been out of this convo too long and the conversation has obviously changed.

I never see fatigue as a huge factor in the match-up. Usually the person changes pokemon anyway when they can't be punished and it just seems as though the pokemon kills before it gets fatigued. I don't play top-level PTs but I just imagine this to be the case.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Tbh I think Ivysaur doesn't care too much about fatigue. Her metagame is anyways just zoning and keeping the opponent away and rack as much damages as you can until you find an opportunity to switch, which Ivy can do with stuff like Uthrow even if fatigued. Squirtle is totally ****ed by it though.

I disagree. Ivysaur's matchups are made worse simply because if you walk away from her, she can't really do anything but space Razor Leaf and B-Air without putting herself at risk (until you're near the edge of the stage), which means that fatigue messes with her in a big way. One of Ivysaur's best traits is how often she can put people in 50/50 situations with lots of damage and knockback if they guess incorrectly, but, those really lose their bite when everything is 20-30% weaker, so you have to be able to mix-up people that much longer, which is taxing.

Squirtle and Charizard are fast and safe enough on many of their moves to legitimately force conflict much more often than Ivysaur can. Squirtle can sometimes combo better when fatigued (low-percent combos work at higher percents; stuff like low-percent F-Throw chaingrab becomes a thing), and Charizard's best moves are still pretty dangerous to the opponent even with fatigue.

 

[Myollnir]

Tbh I think Ivysaur doesn't care too much about fatigue. Her metagame is anyways just zoning and keeping the opponent away and rack as much damages as you can until you find an opportunity to switch, which Ivy can do with stuff like Uthrow even if fatigued. Squirtle is totally ****ed by it though.

Squirtle isn't really ****ed by fatigued when the opponent is at low % : he has some awesome combos when fatigued, you can do like 10 U-tilt + 2/3 U-air on heavy characters. And an F-throw chaingrab on some characters.
But yeah, when you want to kill with a fatigued Squirtle, fatigue is a terrible thing.

 

[infiniteV115]

10 utilt?

....SDI?

 

[Myollnir]

React and walk + u-tilt.

 

[infiniteV115]

I never said sideways, lol. Regardless, I doubt that there's enough of a frame advantage for the Squirtle player to be able to walk (on reaction) to the correct side and then utilt again.

There's also the option of SDI up+jump

 

[Myollnir]

Well if you do that you'll probably lose your DJ unless you do this when the U-tilt is no longer guaranteed.
U-tilt lock is done with the middle of the hitbox, you have to hit with Squirtle's body and not with his head. But if you can escape it, tell me, I'm interested.

 

[Alphicans]

SDI up won't take your jump away. You'd be surprised how hard you can SDI moves in this game.

 

[Myollnir]

Don't worry about my SDI lol, I SDI every move so I know what you're talking about.

I'm just saying that if you get hit during the first frame(s) of your DJ, you're ****ed.

 

[Laem]

If you can jump shouldn't you be able to airdodge?

 

[Myollnir]

I think DJ is faster than airdodging, but even if you airdodge without double jumping, that won't help you at all.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Mid-air jump is frame 1; airdodge invincibility starts at frame 4.

That said, U-Tiltx10 is a horrible exaggeration. Against players who SDI well, you can usually get two U-Tilts before the opponent realizes what's going on, then either one more into a U-Air string, or two more U-Tilts into a F-Air. That's usually how it goes against Kismet's Falco, who falls really quickly.

Heavies might be in for a little more, but, optimal SDI Up-Right can only be walk -> reacted to for two or three U-Tilts.

 

[infiniteV115]

k that makes more sense XD

 

[Player-1]

You can air dodge out of hitstun faster than mid air jump though, plus with mid air jump you have to escape where the hotbox is in time which may take a couple of frames to travel a distance

 

[Shaya]

At low percent where moves are comboing, the time it takes for hitstun to end so you can airdodge/jump are the same.

 

[Myollnir]

Mid-air jump is frame 1; airdodge invincibility starts at frame 4.

That said, U-Tiltx10 is a horrible exaggeration. Against players who SDI well, you can usually get two U-Tilts before the opponent realizes what's going on, then either one more into a U-Air string, or two more U-Tilts into a F-Air. That's usually how it goes against Kismet's Falco, who falls really quickly.

Heavies might be in for a little more, but, optimal SDI Up-Right can only be walk -> reacted to for two or three U-Tilts.

Well, actually I never get 10 U-tilt against Falco, but I've already landed 10 on Wolf (but I think if he doesn't try to DJ too early, I can't get 10). I have a video even though Squirtle was fresh so that's not exactly the same thing, but I don't have any better vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxNW_iMyEcM&feature=player_detailpage#t=234s

Against players who SDI well, you can usually get two U-Tilts before the opponent realizes what's going on, then either one more into a U-Air string, or two more U-Tilts into a F-Air.

I'm talking about a fatigued Squirtle, so don't you get enough time to let Falco fall between each U-tilt so you're not forced to go into a U-air string?

Anyway, I'm sorry for the loss of time of everyone. I knew I was exaggerating, but not that much, I thought 8 U-tilt was a realistic number and 10 was possible.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wolf has the second fastest normal fall speed in the game, right? It might affect him more than Falco.

Regardless, he's definitely not SDI-ing to the side as far as possible per hit and should be able to avoid constant U-Tilt stuff like that. Going into early U-Air strings is a smart and powerful remedy, at least.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Aposl has utilt'd me a good deal when we play. Don't think it was more then 5 though... can eventually dbl jump or shine.