Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Steam]

Too bad SL OoS eats everything Wolf has for breakfast besides a perfectly spaced bair -__- MK is a pain. Same level as Wario imo, but I don't know if they should fall into -1 or -2...

SL OOS shuts down like almost everything most characters can do.

punishes anything lucario does OOS cept fsmash :L

 

[da K.I.D.]

thats not true.

grounded shuttle loop without shielding stuffs just as many options as shuttle loop out of shield.

 

[Steam]

thats not true.

grounded shuttle loop without shielding stuffs just as many options as shuttle loop out of shield.

well yeah. I'm just referring to what can be punished on reaction on shield.

completely missing the point there.

 

[Neon!]

I just realized how optimistic Peach's ratios are, Diddy, Olimar Falco, Marth, DDD, and possibly Zero suit should all be a point harder than shown here. In contrast, Peach does actually beat Pikachu and Samus instead of going even with them.

 

[Luco]

I just realized how optimistic Peach's ratios are, Diddy, Olimar Falco, Marth, DDD, and possibly Zero suit should all be a point harder than shown here. In contrast, Peach does actually beat Pikachu and Samus instead of going even with them.

I'm not necessarily disagree-ing with you but could you provide reasoning?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Peach has always lost to Diddy Kong and Olimar in tournament but the former in particular. Falco is pretty much her 3rd worst match-up after MK / Snake. It's easily -2. I don't see why Marth should be worse than -1 though. To me that match-up is the definition of a -1.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I still remember how kos-mos had a perfect record vs every diddy

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I do think an optimally-played Peach should beat Diddy, for what it's worth. Like KID I remember KOS-MOS just never, ever lost to Diddy Kong.

Interesting that MK is listed as -3. I thought most good Peach players said it was a little better than that, but hard to remember.

And Peach vs. ZSS is probably a very slight advantage for ZSS at high levels of play if only because ZSS should be really hard for her to kill. The first 70% of the Peach match-up is really frustrating though, ZSS sucks out of shield vs Peach, she just does not care if you shield something. You have to play really smart and abuse your dash speed and try really hard to never hit L or R, or you get locked into forward roll as your only actual option. Having it listed as 0 isn't an egregious error. From a certain perspective it's pretty even.

I think the ZSS figures are pretty correct by the way, although I think Snake is 0, TL is +1, Pit is +1, and Kirby is +2. I also don't see how ZSS ever wins the Diddy match-up. I think ADHD could beat basically any ZSS with one hand on the controller. >_>

 

[infiniteV115]

???
ZSS:Diddy is listed as +1 in Diddy's favour on the chart.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah and I think it's worse than that :\

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What Diddy Kong players did Kosmos beat though.

 

[Ussi]

Samus vs Peach is even cause Xyro

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I can see Peach's struggle with Samus' heavy weight. It also must be hard for her to get around zair [she's slow on the ground and her aerial movement via float is rather telegraphed] and Samus' upB out of shield looks like a reasonable answer to Peach's so-called 'shield pressure'. I wouldn't be surprised if it actually was even. Too bad the match-up has never been played in tourney a lot other than Xyro vs Illmatic. I would love to see how quiK plays it against reaper / Leon and how YB does against Kie.

 

[da K.I.D.]

fliphop and gnes and i dont know who else.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

le thein a million times

 

[Player-1]

Zss vs diddy is nearly even, slightly diddys favor tho

 

[da K.I.D.]

OMG le thien, I completely forgot about him, he was sosooooooo good. i read some of his posts here. dude was hella smart, I thought he was gonna be where gnes is now (before he quit for marvel) i forgot why he stopped playing.

 

[infiniteV115]

Zss vs diddy is nearly even, slightly diddys favor tho

This lol. A big part of ADHD being able to beat every ZSS on the planet is probably that he's quite a lot better than them.

And maybe I'll beat him when I play him

 

[Player-1]

Cuz he was like 26 when he quit

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm going to be 27 in March.

God I'm old.

 

[da K.I.D.]

youre not old, youre just older than everyone on this site or playing this game.

some times i feel like Im old just because ive been playing smash for 6-7 years, but im only 23 so im not that much older than the majority.

 

[PMC66]

^ admin of smash domain is in his 40s so don't feel bad about your age lol

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

tilt locking falco is really easy, you just have to slow down and let him drop a bit inbetween the f-tilts so that he doesn't rise up too high before he's at killing percents.

Laser's aren't even a thing to worry about.

It's all about his jab that outranges sheik's life and falco's bair that ruins sheik's aerial game. Landing f-tilt on Falco at the correct percent is actually harder than it should be. I still think that sheik +2's both him and wolf. Wolf is slightly harder than Falco tho, he has a much better "I'm not gonna get hit with f-tilt" game.

 

[infiniteV115]

Wait
So you don't have to buffer the ftilts and it'll still work?

Yo, Sheik is broken.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Doesn't ZSS get easy infinite set-ups on Diddy with a banana glide toss? I want to say I saw Nick being a douche bag with bananas when he played GNES at WHOBO.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

You need a really fast aerial like diddy/zss up-air to force sheik to buffer it. I think Wolf can shine out if you're too slow, but he falls so fast that you don't have to wait for him like you do with falco.

 

[Seagull Joe]

you need a really fast aerial like diddy/zss up-air to force sheik to buffer it. I think wolf can shine out if you're too slow, but he falls so fast that you don't have to wait for him like you do with falco.

^

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah I've heard that without up air an down b, Sheik would own ZSS with ftilt like Fox.

 

[infiniteV115]

Probably not for as long cause her natural fall speed isn't anywhere close to Fox's (which is what keeps him in so long...same reason ZSS' dsmash chain on him lasts so long) but yeah she'd be worse off

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yall are super old, im only 19 (albeit Ill be 20 in a couple months), and Ive also been playing competitively about 5 years (started playing Melee comp. just 2-3 months before brawl came out, then switched to brawl when it DID come out). So I was like, 15 or something when I went to my first tournament haha.

 

[Tesh]

I can see Peach's struggle with Samus' heavy weight. It also must be hard for her to get around zair [she's slow on the ground and her aerial movement via float is rather telegraphed] and Samus' upB out of shield looks like a reasonable answer to Peach's so-called 'shield pressure'. I wouldn't be surprised if it actually was even. Too bad the match-up has never been played in tourney a lot other than Xyro vs Illmatic. I would love to see how quiK plays it against reaper / Leon and how YB does against Kie.

IIRC back when he was playing actively, he slaughtered pretty much every Peach that came to TX (back when the HOBO series was going, this was alot of good Peach players) in money matches and such.

Doesn't ZSS get easy infinite set-ups on Diddy with a banana glide toss? I want to say I saw Nick being a douche bag with bananas when he played GNES at WHOBO.

Well thats one thing not fully explored, but gnes still won and didn't even use the infinite diddy has on zss. I think if both sides master the infinite, diddy kong still wins.

 

[clowsui]

Kos-MOS also was 1-1 vs ADHD iirc

 

[infiniteV115]

imo ZSS has better setups into the infinite but P-1 tends to disagree

 

[Luigi player]

Diddy kongs really sucked *** back then. Especially at the peach mu. Peachs float should never be a problem if you can think since you can just spam peanuts, use jumping- banana-tosses, fair or sideb kick her... Diddy can just spam these moves and doesnt have anything to be worried about since she kills at like 200% and at low % you can just sdi/uair her stuff. And if she gets too close you could also just roll back to not be pressured anymore.

And as for the 'you need a fast aerial to get out of sheiks ftilt': Falcos nair is just as fast as diddys uair (frame 3).

Diddy also has an easier time getting the infinite than zss IF he knows what to do, but infinites shouldnt really happen in this mu if both play safe enough (most people dont do that though).

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

Well I was being lazy. Falco being a space means he falls naturally fast, but not as fast as the other 2, which means if you just mash ftilt like you would against fox, falco rises too high and should survive the upsmash. But ftilt is still positive enough on hit that you have leeway to wait a small bit between f-tilts to keep them from rosing too high, unfortunately ZSSand Diddy don't fall nearly as fast so you would have to wait longer for them to fall down making their fast aerials a really strong interrupt.

If sheik got falco naired out of tilt lock, she would just immediatly resume it anyway.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

IIRC back when he was playing actively, he slaughtered pretty much every Peach that came to TX (back when the HOBO series was going, this was alot of good Peach players) in money matches and such.


Well thats one thing not fully explored, but gnes still won and didn't even use the infinite diddy has on zss. I think if both sides master the infinite, diddy kong still wins.

Pretty sure it's just because Nick Riddle decided to be bad and dropped the last stock when he had it.

Serious question, why do you think Diddy would win?

 

[NickRiddle]

Pretty sure it's just because Nick Riddle decided to be bad and dropped the last stock when he had it.

Serious question, why do you think Diddy would win?

Yeah, that thing happened.

 

[infiniteV115]

And considering the fact that Nick Riddle is terrible and still managed to almost beat Gnes, the MU can't possibly be worse than -1 for ZSS.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Actually.. You can SDi and foot stool Shiek out of the F-Tilt lock.
But if Falco were to Nair out of the Tilt lock. Falco could shield before Shiek does another F-Tilt, then Falco could grab. Simple stuffs!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Key word being almost, I think the only zss to ever beat any good diddy is quiksilver