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Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

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da K.I.D.

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Im pretty sure Nick riddle only brought that up as a 'hey, we just figured out this really useless thing on mk but everyone acts like all their random mk bs makes their matchups even so ill be dumb and claim it too" type comments.

footstooling mk out of a grab release has 0 bearing on the matchup. why did it take me 5 seconds to realize this while you guys are still talking about it.
 

Seagull Joe

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http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=139656

His exact wording on it was "He goes even with the entirety of B tier, except he beats Peach/Pit/Wolf/Lucario.

He beats everyone below that, other than being even with Sheik."

Stop making stuff up...unless it's in the comments.
Vinnie changes his mind all the time. In more recent times he agrees with me that :wolf: vs :gw: is even as indicated on the current chart anywho.

:018:
 

Grim Tuesday

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Im pretty sure Nick riddle only brought that up as a 'hey, we just figured out this really useless thing on mk but everyone acts like all their random mk bs makes their matchups even so ill be dumb and claim it too" type comments.

footstooling mk out of a grab release has 0 bearing on the matchup. why did it take me 5 seconds to realize this while you guys are still talking about it.
Jigglypuff can Rest MK if she shields GSL.
50:50 plz
 

infiniteV115

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Yes, and rightfully so. ICs are definitely 2nd with such a conservative stagelist.

With a stagelist such as that in URS, I really don't think they would be 2nd. Frigate, Brinstar and RC seem like too much for them to handle. They'd still be good (at worst, top of high tier) but not 2nd.
 

Luco

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But, how will Jiggz get enough damage on MK for rest to kill?

...:awesome:
Why, isn't it obvious? Rest! :troll:

Usually after a comment like this i'd have something to say that is on topic. Nothing is coming to me. Nothing at all. I can't comment on a jiggz/MK match-up and otherwise this thread is going awry atm. New proposal?

Wait, what am I talking about, that first comment was more on-topic-ish than that other stuff. Ahh well. -_-
 

Grim Tuesday

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But, how will Jiggz get enough damage on MK for rest to kill?

...:awesome:
...

Why, isn't it obvious? Rest! :troll:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Usually after a comment like this i'd have something to say that is on topic. Nothing is coming to me. Nothing at all. I can't comment on a jiggz/MK match-up and otherwise this thread is going awry atm. New proposal?

Wait, what am I talking about, that first comment was more on-topic-ish than that other stuff. Ahh well. -_-
Jiggs/MK is a sick topic. It basically goes like...

MK can counter all of Puff's options in every situation, technically. He also can't be timed out like Snake, and can consistently pressure Jigglypuff when she runs way. MK's punish game on Jigglypuff is also pretty strong because he can force her off stage and actually stop her from coming back.

Which is why it should be -4

But MK players suck, and don't know completely relevant match-ups like Puff/MK. So it is much closer to -2 or -3 in practice. On top of this, the fact that the MK will never know the MU as well as the Jigglypuff pretty much prevents it from being -4 ever.

Puff's plan in the match-up (against a competent MK, I need to stress that) is to retreat until he makes a mistake, and then either:
a) Punish him
or
b) Get in a position where he will mess up again and you can punish him (or punish him harder, if you're feeling risky).

Unfortunately, like I said before, MK can pressure Jigglypuff's retreat - which means she has to be ever vigilant and always out-playing MK - you have to predict/guess what he will chase you with and react accordingly, as well as baiting him into choosing the wrong option, etc...
She can't rest (and I don't mean the move) unless she is hitting him.

GSL, by itself, counters all of Puff's approaches. Which is why it is good that it can be auto-punished on shield - KOs at 40% on standard stages (add 10%~ for perfect DI, but no one DIs Rest), and as low as 30% on Halberd (Puff's counterpick).

If you can bait MK into trying to hit you with an aerial shuttle loop, you can double jump > dair and, if the angle is right, you'll catch him out of the SL. If the variables are right, that dair can combo into Rest as well (more early KOs!)

Anyone who thinks dair > rest isn't viable hasn't played a Puff that is good enough to read and follow SDI. It is also 100% guaranteed if you only hit with the last 2 hits (say... if someone spot-dodges or air dodges the first few), or if it trips.

Puff can punish MK pretty well *if she gets in*. But because getting in is so hard against MK, it mitigates her 30%~ punishes (stringing bairs, and dair > grab).

The End.
 

GOofyGV

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Yes, and rightfully so. ICs are definitely 2nd with such a conservative stagelist.

With a stagelist such as that in URS, I really don't think they would be 2nd. Frigate, Brinstar and RC seem like too much for them to handle. They'd still be good (at worst, top of high tier) but not 2nd.
Who else then? Not Olimar at least.
 

SoulPech

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...



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



Jiggs/MK is a sick topic. It basically goes like...

MK can counter all of Puff's options in every situation, technically. He also can't be timed out like Snake, and can consistently pressure Jigglypuff when she runs way. MK's punish game on Jigglypuff is also pretty strong because he can force her off stage and actually stop her from coming back.

Which is why it should be -4

But MK players suck, and don't know completely relevant match-ups like Puff/MK. So it is much closer to -2 or -3 in practice. On top of this, the fact that the MK will never know the MU as well as the Jigglypuff pretty much prevents it from being -4 ever.

Puff's plan in the match-up (against a competent MK, I need to stress that) is to retreat until he makes a mistake, and then either:
a) Punish him
or
b) Get in a position where he will mess up again and you can punish him (or punish him harder, if you're feeling risky).

Unfortunately, like I said before, MK can pressure Jigglypuff's retreat - which means she has to be ever vigilant and always out-playing MK - you have to predict/guess what he will chase you with and react accordingly, as well as baiting him into choosing the wrong option, etc...
She can't rest (and I don't mean the move) unless she is hitting him.

GSL, by itself, counters all of Puff's approaches. Which is why it is good that it can be auto-punished on shield - KOs at 40% on standard stages (add 10%~ for perfect DI, but no one DIs Rest), and as low as 30% on Halberd (Puff's counterpick).

If you can bait MK into trying to hit you with an aerial shuttle loop, you can double jump > dair and, if the angle is right, you'll catch him out of the SL. If the variables are right, that dair can combo into Rest as well (more early KOs!)

Anyone who thinks dair > rest isn't viable hasn't played a Puff that is good enough to read and follow SDI. It is also 100% guaranteed if you only hit with the last 2 hits (say... if someone spot-dodges or air dodges the first few), or if it trips.

Puff can punish MK pretty well *if she gets in*. But because getting in is so hard against MK, it mitigates her 30%~ punishes (stringing bairs, and dair > grab).

The End.
This should be the strategy for any kind of Jigglypuff player. Just counter attack and force a mistake. The issue though is that MK's moves come out quick and are almost lagless. There is a way to run away from MK, like float to one side, the chase, then run to the other. This is when you begin to punish. The Dair-Rest would work but when they SDI, you would have to chase them. Honestly even with a competent jiggs/mk It is going to be 25-75 MK

:phone:
 

PMC66

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I feel Shiek should be even with ROB Shielda being even when shiek isn't is kind of dumb
 

Luco

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There's a definite strategy to being shielda that works better than either char. I think I can understand to a degree why shielda would have match-ups that shiek or zelda by themselves would not.
 

PMC66

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yeah but vs ROB she's actually even so does that mean the boost of sending out Zelda will beat ROB?

i know Shielda is better for like a handful of matchups but vs ROB I don't feel it makes much of a difference.

VS wolf, MK or Olimar switching to Zelda is a horrible idea imo

btw Wolf doesn't loose to Sheik get@me it's the truth :p
 

PMC66

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it's only a radical concept because wolf mains don't know the mu.

BRING IT ON ISH GHEB AND GULL!
 

Ishiey

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I think it's close to even, but haven't really played any amazing Sheiks and am not that amazing myself lol, so I usually defer to whatever Kain and Judo say.

:059:
 

Seagull Joe

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The matchup is +1 :sheik: in :sheik: vs :wolf:. I've played Tutu, Ed, Noid (Best hidden :sheik:), and Snakeee. That tilt lock is just overpowering. I could see it as even otherwise. Then again, if I consider :falco: vs :wolf: even I don't see why :sheik: vs :wolf: couldn't be classified as even. It's all subjective. I think it's :sheik:'s favor 55-45.

:wolf:'s only matchups 60-40 or worst are :snake:, :metaknight:, :wario:, :pikachu2:, and :dedede:. :snake:/:metaknight: are 4-6 (-1). :pikachu2: is 3-7 (-2). :dedede: is 2-8 (-3). :wario: is 3-7 (-2). :wario: is even without the cg. :pikachu2: is even without the cg. :dedede: is broken. :snake: is gay because he never dies -.-. :metaknight: is :metaknight:.

:wolf: however is one of the better characters vs :metaknight:. He may not have a huge amount of ways to gimmick kill like :gw: or guaranteed kills at certain percents like :snake:, but he is heavy, has a camp-able projectile, his Dthrow does 12%! and setups well, he has grab releases into dacus/fsmash, has shine (the only character that has a move to challenge :metaknight:'s attacks safely, and safe aerials on block. If :wolf: didn't have RCO lag or GSL wasn't invincible then the matchup would be drastically different.

:018:
 

Ishiey

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Too bad SL OoS eats everything Wolf has for breakfast besides a perfectly spaced bair -__- MK is a pain. Same level as Wario imo, but I don't know if they should fall into -1 or -2...

:059:
 

PMC66

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neither Wario or Mk are -2. Wario isn't that bad.

Chu i this is +1 for Wolf Without chain grab with it's pretty hard not going to lie.

D3 if it wasn't for the fact mashing existed i'd say he was -4 rofl.

I personally don't feel snake beats wolf, he'd need to read in advance to pivot grab aproaches same with Wario and alot of his matchups.

Tilt lock isn't that overpowering when even regardless of being hit by it and taking maximum damage you can live to another 100% because she can't kill.

Sheik doesn't beat wolf for one pure and simple reason, She can't kill him, and F-tilt lock is actually situational in practice.
 

Seagull Joe

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neither Wario or Mk are -2. Wario isn't that bad.

Chu i this is +1 for Wolf Without chain grab with it's pretty hard not going to lie.

D3 if it wasn't for the fact mashing existed i'd say he was -4 rofl.

I personally don't feel snake beats wolf, he'd need to read in advance to pivot grab aproaches same with Wario and alot of his matchups.

Tilt lock isn't that overpowering when even regardless of being hit by it and taking maximum damage you can live to another 100% because she can't kill.

Sheik doesn't beat wolf for one pure and simple reason, She can't kill him, and F-tilt lock is actually situational in practice.
This made my brain hurt :c.

:018:
 
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