[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[ToiseOfChoice]

I don't want Ridley to be that small

Sounds like a personal problem!

Smaller Ridley > No Ridley, at least for anyone who can keep their nerd rage in check

 

[Big-Cat]

Where's that size chart of the Brawl characters and Ridley when you need it?

EDIT: Here's one

I think if you mead Ridley taller by 2-3 heads than Ganondorf, he'd work fine.

And here's another picture.

At the very least, the size between him and Samus by making him 2-3 heads taller (in his common crouching state) than Ganondorf would be faithful and not too insane to balance. And besides, Yoshi would probably kill him with his DAir.

actually, i wrote something... then i submitted it... then i read you responded to something that made my message moot, so i edited it so it won't be viewed. no big deal... just don't like things that go on and on and on... things get boring, which is why i love smash... it isn't shipping various versions like an arcade edition lol cheap shot at capcom.

At least Capcom is willing to make an update AND make its newest one DLC.

 

[Pieman0920]

Given Bowser's appearance in Brawl/Melee, I don't know where these complaints about Ridley come from. Bowser is usually much larger in the Mario Bros games than he is in Smash, and he's usually screwed over in terms of ability. Most people tend to forget that Bowser's a faster runner, and can jump higher than Mario, or at least is shown as that in Galaxy. (And SMB3 I guess) Still, no one complains about him being toned down, so I don't really understand this Ridley stuff. :/

 

[Steam]

bowser jumps mad high in 64 yo

 

[Big-Cat]

Here's something I notice with both Bowser AND Ridley.

While their sizes have varied in 3D titles (my guess is for both dramatics and gameplay), look at their sizes in all the 2D titles. There tends to be a general consistency in size which can partially be explained that making them so big as the 3D games would just be too hard to manage in a 2D game.

If anything, my guess is a playable Ridley would follow Bowser in that he'd be more 2D proportional to Samus.

 

[augustoflores]

ridley's issue is with his frame... his tail is way longer than bowsers, his wings are way longer than charizards. his head is way long, his neck... whatever...

also... sorry 'bout that cheap shot at capcom earlier, i just can't afford to keep up with them... im also not sure if i want to work with them... they have this policy that doesn't allow any new IPs... don't know if i should join their megaman team (if they have one) or work for Inafune with his new game company... that is after i am well versed in the industry. (still studying!)

 

[Big-Cat]

Things may chane in the future. The main concern about not wanting to do new IPs is because of the economy. It's too much of a gamble to make a new console IP since if it bombs, it really hurts the company.

I think now that Ridley would be a character that excels best in pokes. Not necessarily a defensive character, but things would change greatly for him at close range.

 

[Pieman0920]

I wouldn't really say that the 2D games are that consistent for Bowser and Ridley's heights. Bowser was basically as tall as "Super" Mario in SMB, slightly taller than that in SMB3, and much larger in SMW, where his head was the size of Mario with a mushroom. Even in his smaller form in SMB, he's still technically bigger than he's depicted in Smash. The main games not withstanding, other 2D depictions of Bowser seem to vary a bit. The M&L series has a Bowser that's comparable to Smash's or SMB's Bowser in size. Super Mario RPG has him shrunk, Paper Mario has him a bit bigger, and Yoshi's Island 2 has him quite a bit taller than Yoshi, especially compared to Smash. Still, one thing that you sort of notice when going through all of these is just how often Bowser becomes giant sized later on in the games. (NSMBWii, SMG2, YI2, M&L3) Odd.

Anyways, Ridley only has about 3 2D appearances to look at, so its hard to say that there's really a trend in his size. Metroid 1 has him at Samus' size, Super Metroid has him as shown above, being about twice Samus' size, and Zero Mission has him around the same height, but less compact. (Fusion just used the Super Metroid sprite, and then it was Ridley X)

As for Ridley's frame, he's really not that bad. Generally, Ridley's wings are shown to be rather small, at least in the 2D games. His tail also stretches to fit most of the time. His pointy head is usually faced down, and he usually crunches up. Give him a slight bit of modifying from the picture that Kuma posted, and you're golden. Heck, just look at Charizard really. The only major difference in their frames that would pose a possible issue (or at least the only one I notice) is the fact that Charizard has stubby legs compared to Ridley, but considering how Ridley scrunches up all the time, I don't think that's really that much of a problem either.

 

[vVv Rapture]

That's a good point; rarely does Ridley ever actually strike a pose that extends his body. He's almost always hunched over, his arms inward, his head slouched, his wings upon him (and they are rather small in the 2D games, beeteedubs), his tail curled, etc.

One of the things that could make Ridley so terrifying is when he does extend himself, whether it be to run or to attack, as it would give him a good amount of deceptive range (but obviously make him a bigger target when attacking).

In terms of size, yeah it's obvious Ridley was never really meant to be the size of Samus or whatever, but we have to face facts: that's just how it works. Ridley would have to be small enough to be a good fighter. He can't be humongous. If he's Bowser size or Zard size, then that's what's best for him. I mean, come on, is it really worth not putting him in as playable just because of resizing? That's ridiculous.

 

[augustoflores]

ive been thinking just now... what if we change up the trophies?

remember in Smash 1, there were these animations of the characters doing the moves with their histories on the sides? i was thinking since the whole STRIFE thing got people with the idea that it is some futuristic thing, that the trophy stands were to project physical holograms. a bit like the handheld devices the jedi and sith used to communicate.

i would like these things not to project a blue contour of the figures but rather they be full color high definition models with motion and occasionally maybe flash some disturbance waves to signify it is indeed a hologram.
it may even be showing the reason why Dr. Mario can fight Mario or why mario can fight himself but with different clothes... or why mario fights along with himself but with different tones.
i don't know about you but i think i've got it! (though i can't guarantee shiit since i don't work for nintendo or HAL labs)

the reason being that that mario is a fake... not the real thing... this adventure mode could be about realization... or something else

 

[Gallowglass]

Ridley and meta Ridley should stay as bosses.

Other Bosses I would like to see

Vaati
King Boo
General Scales
Kamek
Pigma (Fight him from the inside)
Ice Climber Bird
Koopalings Gauntlet
Gohma

 

[vVv Rapture]

Ridley and meta Ridley should stay as bosses.

No.

/tenopinionsofyoursarewrong

 

[Shorts]

Isn't bowser REALLY big in a lot of the canon Mario titles? Yes. This Ridley discussion shouldn't have moved past this point.

remember in Smash 1, there were these animations of the characters doing the moves with their histories on the sides? i was thinking since the whole STRIFE thing got people with the idea that it is some futuristic thing, that the trophy stands were to project physical holograms. a bit like the handheld devices the jedi and sith used to communicate.

can we not? I like the idea of trying some sort of new trophy thing. But not this. Besides. . . starwars.... enough said.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Isn't bowser REALLY big in a lot of the canon Mario titles? Yes. This Ridley discussion shouldn't have moved past this point.

Apparently some magic stuff happens or whatever, so it's okay. >_>

 

[augustoflores]

didn't say it was star wars. it was to show a demonstration of a similar quality. star wars just came to mind. anything could have been the demonstration, i just happen to use star wars because it is easy to relate to. apparently, i didn't know there were people on the this board that didn't like star wars... just my luck. lol
(based on your context... it is not sure if you don't like Star Wars, but i must digress)
well, one opinion down.

 

[AetherEch0s]

I would assume that from the point that Ridley emerges from his final metamorphosis he continues to grow. That would explain why he is absolutely enormous on games like Prime 3, which would presumably be his oldest incarnation. His body survived the battle on Zebes, was partially mechanized body somehow survived the battle on Tallon IV, was reconstructed and revitalized with Phazon, to return on Prime 3. If you notice there are mechanical aspects to his design when he attacks Norian. Its safe to assume he continues to grow as he ages. On Other M, he is still arguably large, despite having little time to grow, but not nearly as large as he was on Prime 3, but its also safe to assume that the Federation was using growth enhancers on Ridley to speed up the process, as they did with the Queen Metroid.

tl;dr
Ridley's size could possibly be based on his age. Its smaller, brawl suitable Ridley could be canon.

Its a pointless argument anyway. Sakurai now knows that the fans want him playable and will most likely attempt it if nothing else. He even commented on it. It is interesting to note, that Ridley was the only character that Sakurai has commented on regarding their absence from the roster. Here is exact text from the interview in which Sakurai commented on why Ridley was not playable in Brawl:

Nintendo Power: There was a rumor at one point about Ridley being playable. Was that ever a consideration?

Sakurai: I think that would probably be pretty impossible. [Laughs] If we had put our best efforts into it, we may have been able to do it. But he might have been a little slow. Would that be all right? [Laughs]

Its a shame to know that he didnt put his best effort into it >.>
But still, atleast he knows the fans want it.

 

[Zap tackle]

It is Good! It is Good! You won! I was wrong about Ridley ... but what do you think of this:

Characters:

-12 Veterans 64
-11 Veterans Melee
-14 Veterans Brawl (Less Toon Link and Lucario)
-Daisy (Peach different movements, not Necessarily inspired by Mario sports, your Final Smash Could Be a sandstorm)
-Waluigi (Mario Tennis Movements based on, ITS Final Smash would be "playing tennis alone," where he Plays characters on one side of the arena to another in sequence,

Some were good, but Daisy and Waluigi before Toad and Bowser Jr.? I'm pretty sure that these cannon characters created by Miyamoto himself would have priority over Daisy and Waluigi.

 

[AetherEch0s]

and Fawful? I think M&LBIS guarantees him a slot. He surely beats out Daisy, Toad and Waluigi as far as importance to the series, being in 2 main games, and the main antagonist in one of them. Not to mention tons of moveset potential.

 

[Kantrip]

Pokémon

Hey guys. I wanted to post some ideas for pokéball pokémon from the 5th generation. So here goes:

Panpour / Pansage / Pansear

The elemental monkey trio that you receive a member of based on your starter. These guys are a new concept for the generation and put an emphasis on teaching the basics of type coverage. So I thought they should have basic attacks for their type.

Panpour is the water-type of the trio. Upon release from his pokéball, he begins to shoot Water Guns. These Water Guns act the same as Squirtle's, except they do a light amount of damage, go further, and push a greater distance. I could see him possibly replacing Piplup.

Pansage is the grass type monkey. He would stand there shooting out a flurry of Razor Leaf attacks. These would work like Ivysaur's, except they would go farther, shoot faster, deal more damage, and curve more wildly. I could see him possibly replacing Chikorita.

Pansear, the fire user of the threesome, would use Flamethrower (just like Charizard, see a pattern here?). This flamethrower would be more powerful than Bowser's and Charizard's, including longer range, and more damage per second caught inside. It would also be harder to DI out of. I can see Pansear replacing Cyndaquil.

Cofagrius

The new coffin sarcophagus pokémon, Cofagrius sets himself apart from other ghost types through his unique ability: Mummy. When an enemy pokémon makes contact with Cofagrius, they lose their ability and get Mummy as well. This Mummy can continue to be passed along like some sort of contagious disease.
When Cofagrius comes out of his pokéball, he floats around the stage until he comes within proximity of an enemy. He uses Curse on them. They then start taking 6% damage per second and he continues to follow them wherever they go, closely behind them. Cofagrius can be destroyed, however. If he is hit, he will disappear and his Curse will end. However, the person who hit him will be unable to use B moves for a while (around 15 seconds) due to his Mummy ability.

Whimsicott and Cottonee

The cotton pokémon. Whimsicott may appear cute and innocent at first as he floats harmlessly above the battle, but his spores are quite deadly. Whimsicott will float through the air above the stage and rain down an assortment of Cottonee onto the action. These Cottonee will fall slowly to the ground, sit there for a second, and then disappear. That is, unless they find an unsuspecting fighter to unleash PoisonPowder on! If you step onto a Cottonee on the ground or one drifts onto you, you will begin to take a steady 10% damage per second. The Cottonee can be smacked off, and works similarly to the Metroid assist trophy and Olimar's pikmin. After a while of raining his destruction, Whimsicott will float away off the top of the screen.

Blitzle

Blitzle is the first evolution electric zebra pokémon. He is extremely fast, and it shows when he uses Wild Charge. When Blitzle comes out of his pokéball, he will prepare to charge as the lightning bolt on his head charges up and flashes yellow. Then suddenly he will charge across the screen with lightning speed and incredible power, dealing a solid 30% damage and very high knockback to anyone caught in his path. He will promptly disappear afterwards.

Conkeldurr

Conkeldurr is a big bad final evolution fighting type, and he is very strong. Upon release from his pokéball, he will immediately begin to throw the giant stone slabs he lifts, alternating hands left and right, while grabbing more from behind his back as he goes. These slabs will deal around 15% damage to anyone in the air, meteor smashing them straight down with incredible force, and they will do around 30% damage to those on the ground, pushing them into the ground like DK's side B. The slabs fly in a random arc per rock that make the slabs difficult to avoid unless you're behind Conkeldurr.

Genesect

Genesect is already becoming quite a famous pokémon in the 5th generation. He is a deadly steel bug type legendary with his own set of items that change his type (this change really only affects his signature move, Techno Blast). When he comes out of his pokéball, he begins to charge a beam that he will fire straight ahead. This beam works exactly like the beam on Battleship Halberd: When caught in it, you take cumulative damage and are trapped, and when it ends you are sent flying. Genesect's Techno Blast is slightly harder to DI out of and slightly stronger than the Halberd version. It glows with different elemental-type colours.

Victini

This list was made assuming that the 5th gen representative would not be Victini, and would most likely end up being Zoroark. With this in mind, Victini became an obvious candidate for the "special legendary" that comes into the game very little and is extremely rare. When Victini comes out of the pokéball, he lets out his cry and flies to the top and centre of the screen. He then uses V-create. A giant V is formed into the sky out of flames, and then it begins to rain down on the enemies, dealing tremendous knockback and about 20% damage. Also, whatever special rare item is applicable (CD's, stickers, trophies, what have you) rain down to be colleced.

Obviously, these are just some possible candidates from 5th gen exclusively. Not all existing pokéballs would be replaced.

Thoughts?

 

[vVv Rapture]

I would assume that from the point that Ridley emerges from his final metamorphosis he continues to grow. That would explain why he is absolutely enormous on games like Prime 3, which would presumably be his oldest incarnation. His body survived the battle on Zebes, was partially mechanized body somehow survived the battle on Tallon IV, was reconstructed and revitalized with Phazon, to return on Prime 3. If you notice there are mechanical aspects to his design when he attacks Norian. Its safe to assume he continues to grow as he ages. On Other M, he is still arguably large, despite having little time to grow, but not nearly as large as he was on Prime 3, but its also safe to assume that the Federation was using growth enhancers on Ridley to speed up the process, as they did with the Queen Metroid.

Seems about right. +1 for your Metroid knowledge.

Ridley's size could possibly be based on his age. Its smaller, brawl suitable Ridley could be canon.

Its a pointless argument anyway. Sakurai now knows that the fans want him playable and will most likely attempt it if nothing else. He even commented on it. It is interesting to note, that Ridley was the only character that Sakurai has commented on regarding their absence from the roster. Here is exact text from the interview in which Sakurai commented on why Ridley was not playable in Brawl:

Nintendo Power: There was a rumor at one point about Ridley being playable. Was that ever a consideration?

Sakurai: I think that would probably be pretty impossible. [Laughs] If we had put our best efforts into it, we may have been able to do it. But he might have been a little slow. Would that be all right? [Laughs]

Its a shame to know that he didnt put his best effort into it >.>
But still, atleast he knows the fans want it.

Yeah, a small Ridley can definitely be canon considering now we know he has an actual life-cycle and that he's not just an anomaly, he's one of a species. I'm sure Sakurai definitely sat down and considered him to be playable, but then he probably just said, "**** it" and made him a boss, since that's easier.

And to be honest, Ridley shouldn't be that slow, especially a small Ridley. Maybe a young Ridley that's faster and agile, but less powerful because it isn't fully grown yet.

 

[Gallowglass]

and Fawful? I think M&LBIS guarantees him a slot. He surely beats out Daisy, Toad and Waluigi as far as importance to the series, being in 2 main games, and the main antagonist in one of them. Not to mention tons of moveset potential.

If he's so important to the series how come he is never shown in any of the Mario spin-offs (Mario Kart, Mario party, etc...). Not to mention Toad has appeared in countless games and is playable in two major title. He even stars in his own spin off Wario woods.

 

[majora_787]

I love how everyone against Ridley actively pretty much use the excuse of "everything that is a good excuse for him to be in only apply to everyone else because we don't like Ridley". I'm just saying. It's like in their world, Ridley is the one character who is not allowed to be tweaked, resized, or rescaled in any way, but for everyone else it's totally acceptable.

ANYWAY. The thing about Ridley is this: The one from Other M and Fusion were their own Ridley. Super Metroid is its own Ridley. Metroid and the Prime Trilogy are their own Ridley. While size is most likely attributed to growth, they probably also made him bigger with each cloning just for the sake of making him bigger and beefier.

One thing I hope they don't do: Make him a chatterbox. If he has like one taunt where he says one word, that's one thing. But if he talks non-stop in attacks, taunts, and victories, it ruins it,. But he should say something, because Metroid fans know: Ridley can talk. Technically.

But I agree, he should be big, he should be fast, he should be mid-weight, and he should be not too strong. He may bruise, but he isn't exactly a bruiser. xD

And I thought Wario starred in Wario's Woods?

 

[BlueSuperSonic1]

Wario was the main villain of Wario's Woods, but Toad was the one you played as.

 

[majora_787]

Wario was the main villain of Wario's Woods, but Toad was the one you played as.

Ohhh. Alright. That's... weird that they named it after the villain. ._.

 

[Zap tackle]

and Fawful? I think M&LBIS guarantees him a slot. He surely beats out Daisy, Toad and Waluigi as far as importance to the series, being in 2 main games, and the main antagonist in one of them. Not to mention tons of moveset potential.

Toad is definitely more important and more recognized than Fawful. When looking in terms of the main cannon series, Toad is clearly beating out Fawful. I don't know about Daisy and Waluigi, but Toad just cannot be compared to Fawful.

Aug, another moveset discussion. Toad has more unique abilities than many characters in the series. There's a lot of stuff left for him from SMB2, NSMB Wii, Wario's Woods, Mario spin-offs, even Mario Galaxy and SMB3 in terms of items can contribute (he ran Toad houses). Additionally, Nintendo can easily make movesets for him. Play Mario Sports Mix? Toad's overall moveset comprises of mushroom and spore attacks. How unique is that?

Ohhh. Alright. That's... weird that they named it after the villain. ._.

I think they did that with a lot of the earlier games (eg. Donkey Kong). Wario was a similar name to Mario, so people could probably recognize it more than Toad.

 

[vVv Rapture]

I love how everyone against Ridley actively pretty much use the excuse of "everything that is a good excuse for him to be in only apply to everyone else because we don't like Ridley". I'm just saying. It's like in their world, Ridley is the one character who is not allowed to be tweaked, resized, or rescaled in any way, but for everyone else it's totally acceptable.

Yes.

ANYWAY. The thing about Ridley is this: The one from Other M and Fusion were their own Ridley. Super Metroid is its own Ridley. Metroid and the Prime Trilogy are their own Ridley. While size is most likely attributed to growth, they probably also made him bigger with each cloning just for the sake of making him bigger and beefier.

Yep.

One thing I hope they don't do: Make him a chatterbox. If he has like one taunt where he says one word, that's one thing. But if he talks non-stop in attacks, taunts, and victories, it ruins it,. But he should say something, because Metroid fans know: Ridley can talk. Technically.

But I agree, he should be big, he should be fast, he should be mid-weight, and he should be not too strong. He may bruise, but he isn't exactly a bruiser. xD

And I thought Wario starred in Wario's Woods?

Yeah, but he has never talked in any game, so they probably wouldn't give him dialogue. He really doesn't need it, unlike a human character where it's implied they have a voicebox.

Yep, that'd be a good Ridley. Give him his speed, size and weight, but balance it out with weaker power.

And yeah Wario was the villain of Wario's Woods.

 

[ToddCam]

Whenever I imagine Ridley talking, he has Steve Buscemi's voice. Either way, I would prefer Ridley's vocalizations to be the screeches and roars, like his boss form in Brawl.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Whenever I imagine Ridley talking, he has Steve Buscemi's voice. Either way, I would prefer Ridley's vocalizations to be the screeches and roars, like his boss form in Brawl.

And like every game he has been in.

But please, for the love of God, do not make him sound like Ridley-X.

 

[majora_787]

He didn't talk in games, no. But I think it would be cool for him to growl out one thing for a taunt or something.

 

[Gallowglass]

I don't know how I feel about Daisy and Waluigi. They're important sure and certainly possible to be in it but the moveset would be weird. The only thing you could take from them is their abilities in sports then they become a Nintendo version of Casey Jones (Ninja Turtle Reference). They could always make up new moves like CF.

 

[AetherEch0s]

Toad is a generic species. The only toad that has been in reoccurring games is Toadsworth, and he has no chance whatsoever. Having a playable Toad would be like having a single Pikmin as a character, or a Goomba, or Goron. Its not a character, its a species. The same could be said for Kirby, but its safe to assume that in MOST of the games you are playing as a certain one, although it is not named specifically. The same could also be said for Pikachu, or any of the Pokemon, but im sure most recognize and acknowledge that it is Ash/Satoshi's Pikachu.

Daisy and Waluigi are spin-off centric, and have not appeared in any new games, and have had no important roles. For movesets, they would have to rely on nothing but their sport and party influences, which is what Peach does. Waluigi could be a semi-cloned Wario, but he hasnt been shown to have any of the same habits (eating, farting, motorcycling) and would still have to rely on sports for a moveset.

Fawful on the other hand, was an important character in M&LSS, was a shop owner npc in M&LPiT, and was THE main antagonist in M&LBIS. Having 3 appearances in main games, not spin-offs, he is only below Bowser Jr. in terms of appearances. As far as moveset potential and "imporatance" goes, he surpasses even Bowser Jr, who would most likely end up being a Bowser clone with maybe 2 or 3 new moves.

 

[Kantrip]

Toad is like Yoshi: A generic race that has one character of the same name that stands out as the "main" member of the race. Although there are many Yoshis, when you find that specific green one you know it's the same Yoshi. The same with the red-capped Toad. Toad is certainly more viable than Daisy, Waluigi and Fawful, and is probably tied with Bowser Jr. Toad was the next character introduced as part of the "good guys" after Mario, Luigi, and Peach.

It seems the same things always get talked about in this thread :/ Any comments on my pokémon list?

 

[AetherEch0s]

Yeah, i forgot about Yoshi. Its assumed to be the Yoshi that tended to Baby Mario, although it could be any of them. Technically, Toad COULD make it, but personally, i find a unique character (Fawful) to be much more interesting and viable. But in the end, any of this "someone is in, someone has no chance" is pointless, sorry to get into it.

Yeah, your Pokemon list is nice. I also think Zoroark will replace Lucario, and Victini will just end up being a rare powerful Pokemon in the Pokeballs. Id like to see Sigilyph or Cryogonal in there, but neither are as popular as i would hope.

 

[Kantrip]

Yeah. In all honesty, I understand that the moveset potential off the bat for Toad is small and he is likely to be very boring, but he is certainly more well-known and "deserving" as people like to say. We have no idea what the formula for getting in is for the developers though, so :shrug:

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Toad shouldn't even be compared to Fawful, or Waluigi or Daisy. His chances of actually making a playable appearance is so much greater than all of these characters that it isn't even funny. The only character he could be considered in fierce competition with right now is Bowser Jr. I consider both logical choices, and I wouldn't really be surprised to even see both appear as newcomers. And don't even compare Toad's moveset potential to anyone elses... he has great moveset potential.

Also, I had a thought. To those few who complain bout Toad not working because he is Peach's B move, what about replacing this Toad with Toadsworth? That'd be a great way to represent the newer era of Mario, as well make room for Toad to be playable.

 

[AetherEch0s]

Well, i have a different definition of deserving. The thing is with Toad, one of them was playable in Super Mario Bros. 2, another in Wario's Woods, which could either be the same one, or different ones. They have appeared in most Mario games, and have been playable in most spin-offs. However, its been over a decade since a Toad had any impact on the series. They are usually just npcs. Fawful is a new reoccurring villain, and i consider that more deserving, yet still below Bowser Jr. I just personally prefer Fawful and see more potential.

Theres also the fact that if Toad were going to be playable, it would have been on SSB or even Melee, Brawl was his last straw as far as im concerned. Theres no new material to warrant his inclusion. Old news is old news. Bowser Jr. and Fawful are the only new Mario Series Reps to be found.

 

[Gallowglass]

I really like Toad and I agree with CrimsonFeint about Yoshi. Daisy originally was the princess to rescue in Super Mario Land for the Gameboy. Now that you mention it the Tatanga should be on the roster according to AetherEch0s' standards. He was in two main games and he was the main villian for one of them. Fawful would trump him because he's more recent.

Also two Toads were playable in Mario Wii and one was blue just like the Mario 2 toad was.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Who cares if it was the same Toad or different Toad? How do you know you're always playing as the same Yoshi or a different Yoshi? Toad is a species, but isn't a random generic baddie like a Koopa or a Goomba. This is why I think the "generic species" argument really doesn't apply to Toad.

The fact that Toad has been playable in these games gives him plenty of moveset potential. Not only this but, being an original character that doesn't quite resemble any other character in the series yet has a lot to work with greatly works in his favor, as many moves can easily be designed specially for him without making him seem out of character. You can't shoot Toad down because of reasons like "he has no moveset potential" or "he is un-original", because it is quite the opposite. And I'm not saying that Fawful is unoriginal or has no moveset potential either.

Toad has appeared in pretty much every single major Mario game since the beginning of the series existence. He has also either hosted Mario spin-offs or been playable in them. Toad is extremely iconic of the series, and I'd even go as far as saying iconic of Nintendo in general. You could ask anyone who Toad is, they'd probably at least be somewhat familiar with the character. Try doing the same with Fawful. He sin't exactly iconic... and he has only appeared in three Mario games. Not to mention Toad's popularity cannot really be matched by Fawful.

The fact that Toad has never really had important roles really means nothing when you set that fact up against everything else he has going for him. He is a popular character, familiar to most people even remotely familar with video games, iconic of the series and possibly even Nintendo in general, and has great moveset potential. If that doesn't validate a character's spot in Smash, or makes the "deserving," then really, I don't know what does.

 

[AetherEch0s]

Tatanga has like 0 popularity. Fawful is popular, new and has moveset potential. The 3 most important things for inclusion. Toad is popular, old and has debatable moveset potential.

As i said, his chances are gone anyway. If he were going to be in one, it would have been pre-brawl, when he was important.
Im done with this. Sakurai can do whatever he wants, because he doesnt have the same mindset as any sane person here. He added tripping, enough said. Retro characters have made it, so Toad might make it. I just dont see it happening when there are two newer characters who have larger roles in the series. If Toad is oh so iconic, he would have got in earlier.

 

[Kantrip]

Actually, I'm intrigued as to this moveset potential. If Toad has something unique to him that would make an interesting special attack, would you mind sharing? That was the main point I had against Toad. Toad is still around and playable in recent games, so I wouldn't argue he is "old news". He is recurring news. He's been around since the beginning and stuck around just as long. If there are some legitimate special moves for him, I'm convinced.