[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Mario the Jumpman]

For the fifth character slot for the Pokemon series, should it be Mewtwo or Lucario?

 

[Spydr Enzo]

For the fifth character slot for the Pokemon series, should it be Mewtwo or Lucario?

The fifth Pokemon slot goes to a popular fifth generation Pokemon, which will happen, and I'm sure Sakurai will want to include one to keep up with the series.

While you've been gone, Mewtwo has been discussed a bit. Really, he doesn't have the greatest chances, although I'm not saying its not possible. But there are plenty other deserving Pokemon characters before Mewtwo would return.

 

[UncleSam]

say no to sakurai!
new production team for SSB4!


EDIT: @spydr- depends on the release date for SSB4 because there isn't going to be a fifth gen for a long time
and it should be mewtwo

 

[Fatmanonice]

SmashChu, seriously, no one isn't going to buy the game or completely loathe it if Tingle is in (except for a small few who really have issues). I really don't like Snake or Sonic, and I never liked Pichu or Dr. Mario in Melee, but I accepted the fact that they were in and instead of playing as them they served as my CPU punching bags when I had no one else to play as.

Don't bring bias into this, if you don't like Tingle, Sakurai doesn't really care. The fact is that Tingle is the most likely new Legend of Zelda character for SSB4. You just have to accept that. While no one really likes it, everyone has accepted it but you.

And Pieman is right about the Pokemon thing. While Pokemon has a HUGE fanbase, it still has a HUGE group of haters that play Smash, and buy the games anyway. I'm not a fan of Pokemon, I don't enjoy them, and I know most of my friends who have the game hate Pokemon with a passion, but they bought the game anyway.

This. A thousand times this. I don't think there's anyone here who hates (more like resent, truth be told) Tingle more than me but I would never consider not buying a Smash game simply because he was playable or deny that he's the most likely new Zelda addition. Like I said a few pages back, Sakurai's somewhat aware with what the fans want but they don't control his actions. It very obvious that he doesn't fear rejection or pissing off a few people if it means he can try something new. Remember, the guy originally left HAL Labortories because he was sick of the fans constantly demanding for sequels. The guy even left Kirby, his own creation, behind in order to spread his wings and explore new interests. This is a man who obviously doesn't bend to angry fanboys. If this were true, Mewtwo would still be with us and Ganondorf would have easily have had an original moveset in Brawl (he even made fun of the fans in a sense by giving Ganondorf his sword... as a taunt.)

Oh and ROB, enough said...

 

[kirbywizard]

This. A thousand times this. I don't think there's anyone here who hates (more like resent, truth be told) Tingle more than me but I would never consider not buying a Smash game simply because he was playable or deny that he's the most likely new Zelda addition.

Luz if you hate Tingle so much. You should hope he gets in, then you can use him as a punching bag . Just hope he doesn't turn out to be the Metaknight of SSB4

 

[Arcadenik]

Pikachu will undoubtly be playable in SSB4. What the four other slots go to is up for debate. But before we discuss that, we should examine how Sakurai came up with the Pokemon roster for Brawl. It seems to me that Brawl was originally going to have just Pikachu, Pokemon Trainer and Lucario. We know for sure that Sakurai considered adding Mewtwo and Plusle & Minun but he went with Jigglypuff. Why? I think its because Mewtwo was probably similar to Lucario in some ways and Plusle & Minun were just going to be a clone of Pikachu (more like Pichu times two) so Jigglypuff was the obvious choice, seeing its more unique than those two.

For SSB4, we have Pikachu and four empty slots for Pokemon characters. Starting with the Pokemon Trainer, Sakurai might either choose to stay with Red and the Kanto starters or replace them all with Gold and the Johto starters from HeartGold/SoulSilver. The 2nd gen Pokemon are no longer "outdated" and are now "new" in the eyes of the mainstream audience and the new generation of Pokemon fans.

Next is the 5th gen Pokemon. There is a high chance this Pokemon would become popular and possibly overrated due to being the featured Pokemon in a future movie before the actual 5th gen games come out... much like what had happened with Lucario years ago. If this Pokemon happens to be similar to Lucario or Mewtwo in some way, Lucario or Mewtwo may not return unless Sakurai wants to make this Pokemon a clone or semiclone of Lucario or Mewtwo.

Jigglypuff would likely return in SSB4 if the 5th gen movie Pokemon happens to be similar to Lucario or Mewtwo since she's more unique than a cloned or semicloned Lucario or Mewtwo. Sakurai may add Lucario or Mewtwo after he adds both Jigglypuff and the 5th gen Pokemon if he does not feel like coming up with a new unique moveset for a new Pokemon like for example Meowth (he's next in line after Red on the Melee poll and Sakurai does acknowledge that Meowth is considered a major Pokemon). So, here is my possible Pokemon roster for SSB4:

1. Pikachu
2. Pokemon Trainer (Red or Gold)
3. 5th gen movie Pokemon
4. Jigglypuff or Lucario or Mewtwo
5. Lucario or Mewtwo or Meowth or other

 

[Pieman0920]

Given that Lucario was included before even Jigglypuff in Brawl (most likely because there had to be a Pokemon representing the 4th gen) I think its a safe bet to say that Sakurai is aware of the problem with too much focus on the first generation of Pokemon, and thus when we get SSB4, Lucario will still be there, so the gap won't get any worse than it is already. That being said, I find it very unlikely that Mewtwo will return, for various reasons I've already said before, mostly stemming from the fact that there is too much focus on the first gen, and that Jigg's inclusion in Brawl cememnted her status above Mewtwo.

 

[JM94]

Hm... you guys seem to have a lot of confidence that Megaman will get in the next one, so which version do you guys think will get in?
(And yeah, I realize that the subject is completely unrelated to the current subject, but I don't really care)

 

[Clownbot]

say no to sakurai!
new production team for SSB4!


EDIT: @spydr- depends on the release date for SSB4 because there isn't going to be a fifth gen for a long time
and it should be mewtwo

Sakurai is teh shiz, mang. Don't you dare talk smack of the one who gave us Melee.

There was a long time between Melee and Brawl, though. Unless the Pokemon series just stops (unlikely), I think we can expect a fifth gen to be here by SSB4. Hell, TWO generations passed in between Melee and Brawl. I would expect a new gen pokemon before Mewtwo or Lucario.

EDIT: @JM94, I would think classic Mega Man.

 

[UncleSam]

Sakurai is teh shiz, mang. Don't you dare talk smack of the one who gave us Melee.

oh yeah, right...
Jiggz and pikachu are definately not going anywhere
PT would have 4th gen pokemon

Spoiler

croagunk/ambipom/infernape?

a 5th gen rep.
and a 2nd gen. rep

Spoiler

sneasel?

heck, sakurai might even do a 3rd gen rep.

Spoiler

Blaziken plz

 

[sundayseclipse]

Hm... you guys seem to have a lot of confidence that Megaman will get in the next one, so which version do you guys think will get in?
(And yeah, I realize that the subject is completely unrelated to the current subject, but I don't really care)

i would like exe with his hait sticking out except with the smash logo on his chest

 

[JM94]

i would like exe with his hait sticking out except with the smash logo on his chest

Honestly, if it's any megaman but classic or X gets in...he'd become my new punching bag for getting in over an, IMO, better version, if he was the original or X, he'd become my main. <_<

In other words, if megaman gets in, I'll either main him, or he'll become my punching bag.

 

[UncleSam]

I don't mind megaman
Tingle is still my punching bag

 

[JM94]

I don't mind megaman
Tingle is still my punching bag

I have no problem with Tingle, he seems like he could make a unique original character, but if a newer megaman got in over my favorite megaman (classic and X), that megaman would earn all my hate. >_<

 

[Arcadenik]

Pieman, you seem to forget that Pokemon Trainer was added in Brawl before Jigglypuff, meaning that Brawl was going to have 4 1st gen Pokemon and 1 4th gen Pokemon before Jigglypuff was added. Its too obvious that Sakurai favors 1st gen Pokemon over latter gens of Pokemon. He added Lucario because it was new just like he added Pichu in Melee because it was new. It is also possible that Red and his starters were added because they were "new" again thanks to FireRed/LeafGreen. So, maybe there is a small chance that Mewtwo may be in SSB4 since it is "new" again in HeartGold/SoulSilver just like Gold and his starters are but I wouldn't get my hopes up for his return in SSB4.

 

[Pieman0920]

Pieman, you seem to forget that Pokemon Trainer was added in Brawl before Jigglypuff, meaning that Brawl was going to have 4 1st gen Pokemon and 1 4th gen Pokemon before Jigglypuff was added. Its too obvious that Sakurai favors 1st gen Pokemon over latter gens of Pokemon. He added Lucario because it was new just like he added Pichu in Melee because it was new. It is also possible that Red and his starters were added because they were "new" again thanks to FireRed/LeafGreen. So, maybe there is a small chance that Mewtwo may be in SSB4 since it is "new" again in HeartGold/SoulSilver just like Gold and his starters are but I wouldn't get my hopes up for his return in SSB4.

I didn't feel a need to mention PT, though he does have a important role in that he represented the first genration so well that he almost compromised Jigg's status from being in SSB, and did compromise Mewtwo. And yes, while it is fairly clear that there is favoratism towards the first generation, its not on a level which blinds Sakurai. If there are five slots in the next game, you can be sure that it won't increase the first generation's stranglehold on the Pokemon series. And no, Mewtwo isn't "new" again in HG/SS. For one, the Mewtwo thing was never confirmed. Second, even if he was, his role in the game is almost certainly just going to be a legendary Pokemon at the end of a dungeon with no importace to the story, so it makes little sense that he would be chosen to represent HG/SS when it could be done better by a Pokemon actually in the second generation.

 

[n88]

You're falling into the importance trap again. There are a number of reasons Mewtwo probably won't get in, but importance isn't one of them.

 

[Tacel]

Just hope he doesn't turn out to be the Metaknight of SSB4

He will be.

 

[Arcadenik]

Like I said before, there is a small chance that Mewtwo may be in SSB4 and I wouldn't get my hopes up for his return in SSB4.

To be honest, I would rather have Gold and his 2nd gen starters instead of Pichu again. So if it means replacing Red and his 1st gen starters, so be it. I can always go back to Brawl if I want to play as Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard again.

 

[Zario777]

What?

I'm pretty sure its Wolf is to Fox what Luigi is to Mario. FALCO is to Fox what Dr. Mario was to Mario, but Dr. Mario isn't in Brawl, so it doesn't matter.

I just did a little test to see how cloned characters in the smash series are to thier original. There was a total of 50 points a character could get (2 points for each original moveset, 1 point for a similar move that function differently [e.g. Fox and Wolf's Blaster] and 0 points for the same move).

Wolf scored 40/50 points. He has only 3 cloned moves (the ones worth 0 points) of Fox and 4 semi-cloned moves (the ones worth 1 points) of Fox. Those moves are Bair, Pummel, FS, (cloned) and his specials (semi).

Falco scored 23/50 points. He has 11 cloned moves of Fox and 5 semi-cloned moves of Fox. Those moves are Ftilt, Dtilt, Usmash, Dsmash, Bair, Throws, and FS (cloned) and his Dair and his specials (semi).

Luigi scored 24/50 points. He has 11 cloned moves of Mario and 4 semi-cloned moves of Mario. Those moves are A, AA, Ftilt, Usmash, Bair, Uair, Pummel, Throws, (cloned) Dsmash, Nair, B and Up B(semi).

My point here is that Falco and Luigi's scores are much closer than Wolf and Luigi. Falco and Dr. Mario are nowhere close because Dr. M scored 7/39.

 

[Tacel]

They could have easily taken Falco out with Pichu and kept Fox all alone like Samus.
Then there would have been no Wolf. *Holds back tears*

 

[Fatmanonice]

Luz if you hate Tingle so much. You should hope he gets in, then you can use him as a punching bag . Just hope he doesn't turn out to be the Metaknight of SSB4

As I said earlier, I think I resent him now more than I hated him in the past. Of all the characters Zelda has ever had, why did they decide to make him one of the reoccuring ones and, to add insult to injury, give him his own franchise? They could have at least kept Vaati alive or maybe even Ralph. *pouts in the corner*

 

[GwJ]

They could have easily taken Falco out with Pichu and kept Fox all alone like Samus.
Then there would have been no Wolf. *Holds back tears*

Samus isn't alone. ZSS is a seperate character.

 

[n88]

They could have at least kept Vaati alive or maybe even Ralph. *pouts in the corner*

What? Ralph was even more annoying than Tingle. Why would we want him as a main character?

 

[Arcadenik]

Ralph wasn't that interesting back then. He is just a bodyguard to the Oracle of Ages and is the great-great-great-however-how-many-great's-grandson of Queen Ambi. He felt more like a generic anime character compared to Tingle, who had more personality. Vaati will live again if Nintendo decides to do a new chapter in the Four Swords storyline... that is, if Nintendo wants to make a new four-player Zelda game again like they are doing with New Super Mario Bros. Wii now. And even if Vaati makes a comeback, he would just be a big floating eye monster again so he would likely end up as a boss in the Adventure Mode anyway. Tingle is the best choice for the 5th Zelda character unless Sakurai is that lazy and makes clones out of Toon Zelda and Toon Sheik (not Tetra).

 

[Starphoenix]

Everyone seems to think there would be a 5 cap limit on roster slots per big franchise. What if there could be 6? Granted it is highly unlikely, but there is a chance no?

 

[Fatmanonice]

What? Ralph was even more annoying than Tingle. Why would we want him as a main character?

Not as a main character, just to be a reoccuring character. Also, is it even humanely possible to be more annoying than Tingle?

 

[lordvaati]

not As A Main Character, Just To Be A Reoccuring Character. Also, Is It Even Humanely Possible To Be More Annoying Than Tingle?

Hey Listen Hey Listen Hey Listen Hey Listen!!!!!!!!!

sound familiar?

 

[Meorksies]

Hmm. Zelda reps. A subject I feel somewhat comfortable speaking on. The Zelda characters I personally would like to see in Smash.

1:Vaati (human form).
2:Midna (post-game form).
3: Fierce Deity Link.

Though I find any of these making the playable cut unlikely. If any, Fierce Deity Link could appear as someone said of a mask-based Young Link's FS.
Characters I would least like to see.

1: Toon Zelda/Sheik.
2: Wolf Link.
3: Falcon-clone Ganondorf.

I though about the idea of Toon Zelda, and didn't see much promise in it. Wolf Link I just don't like the idea of being in Smash. And Ganondorf needs his own moveset! While some changes have been made, it's not enough in my opinion.
Tingle doesn't make either of these lists. I don't want him in, but I don't detest the idea. In fact, if they did put him in, I'd probably use him because I'm sure none of my friends would.

 

[SmashChu]

@Fatmanonice : Quick question. What did Sakurai say about Krystal in his journal (if he ever made a reply to them)?

Fixed. You seem to think that everyone and their dog hates Tingle. Really, though, a lot of people don't know who he is. They don't really care wether he gets in or not. Your average Joe, upon unlocking Tingle, would laugh at him, and find him a funny caracter.

If most fans who know Tingle hate him, do you think everyone else will "come around." Tingle isn't hated because of a happening in the story or from one game (that was later fix'd). Tingle is hated because he is annoying. Most new players would not find him funny. They'd find him irritating and gay. He'd be loathed.

 

[Fatmanonice]

@Fatmanonice : Quick question. What did Sakurai say about Krystal in his journal (if he ever made a reply to them)?

He didn't say anything about Krystal although she had three entries that talked about her (with one of them being a guy that was un-nervingly obsessed with her). Sakurai only commented on two characters: Megaman and Toad.

Megaman- After the first Megaman request (there were two in the journal), Sakurai explained the basic "rules" for Smash characters. These rules were that they had to be a video game character and they've had to had been in at least one game on at least one Nintendo console. He then went on to explain that only one or two more third party characters would be added if he felt like it. I still get the feeling that he truely intended it to be just Snake at first.

Toad- A kindergartner requested Toad on behalf of his class (they supposedly had a class poll). The kid spelled Toad's Japanese name wrong and Sakurai proceeded to make fun of him for doing so.

 

[Big-Cat]

Regarding this whole rep thing for Pokemon, I doubt that there's a certain quota that has to be meant. As I've said before, Super Smash Bros. is not a Congress. Representation could be off the wall.

People seem to have different ideas as to what caused Mewtwo to be cut. Here's mine:

The data that was found in the game suggests that Mewtwo was the last of the Seven Deadly Characters to be cut. He was so far in development that he has the same files as all the playable characters and has a personal victory theme file, something Wolf does not have. I think that sometime in development, the Pokemon Company contacts Sora and demands that Lucario be put into the game, possibly for advertising. Sakurai mentioned at GDC '08 that it was difficult negotiating with the Pokemon Company, this may have been part of the problem.

Anyway, Lucario had to be implemented or else no Pokemon characters or something similar. Thus, all production regarding Mewtwo was set aside in order to get Lucario in. Unfortunately, there was not enough time in the end to get Mewtwo in. Therefore, Mewtwo met his infamous fate.

Now, where is Jigglypuff in all this? I think she was set aside like Mewtwo since she does not appear in the SSE. However, she may have been further in development enough to be completed. This could explain why it's suggested she was one of the last characters to be implemented fully.

This theory does not take into account generation representation. Rather, it takes into account Executive Meddling. Anyway, I don't think Sakurai will necessarily choose a Pokemon from the most recent generation. In Melee, Pichu was added solely to be the game's Dan Hibiki, not a token second gen character. From the looks of things, the various generations are represented through the Pokeballs.

 

[ToddCam]

Just curious, SmashChu, what is your basis for declaring that "most" people hate him? It sounds like a broad generalization about a group of people with no evidence. I find him annoying, but I don't hate him. Most people here don't hate him either, it seems. There is a general negative view, I suppose, but hate?

Also, homophobia should not be a reason why you exclude a character. Incidentally, I think Tingle is creepy, but not "gay." And Luigi is fairly effeminate in Smash.

 

[WolfCypher]

That sounds very solid. I wish we could just ASK Sakurai these things. Maybe I'm such a Lucario fan that I'm delusional, but I still think that even without the Pokémon Company's meddling, Lucario would have been considered by Sakurai.

Everyone keeps saying Lucario was added in because Sakurai was told to add it in, is no one open to the possibility that Lucario would have been in regardless?

Also, homophobia should not be a reason why you exclude a character. Incidentally, I think Tingle is creepy, but not "gay." And Luigi is fairly effeminate in Smash.

Heh...you didn't take an easy example of effeminacy and used Marth as an example?

 

[Big-Cat]

That sounds very solid. I wish we could just ASK Sakurai these things. Maybe I'm such a Lucario fan that I'm delusional, but I still think that even without the Pokémon Company's meddling, Lucario would have been considered by Sakurai.

Everyone keeps saying Lucario was added in because Sakurai was told to add it in, is no one open to the possibility that Lucario would have been in regardless?

It's likely that he was considered since, as I mentioned, he has a personal victory theme file. I'm trying to find the list that had these and the other scrapped files, but I can't seem to find them.

If he was considered, he may have been wanted by the Pokemon Company to still be finished first. Thus, not enough time could be put into Jigglypuff and Mewtwo. However, there may have been enough for one more and they chose Jigglypuff since she's one of the original twelve.

 

[Arcadenik]

Considering the fact Sakurai added four new Pokemon in Brawl, I would think that coming up with original and unique movesets for all four Pokemon would take a lot of time during the development. When viewing the top row on the first page of Brawl group records, I noticed that Pokemon Trainer and Lucario were last before the "cut but then added back" characters like Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, and Jigglypuff. This tells me that Pokemon Trainer and Lucario were the last newcomers added before Sakurai added the removed veterans and new clones to bump the roster number and finally Sonic. As to why he picked Jigglypuff over Mewtwo, I suspect it has something to do with Jigglypuff being more unique than Mewtwo since Lucario is similar to Mewtwo in some ways. I don't think it had anything to do with Jigglypuff being one of the original 12 since Sakurai was willing to remove her.

 

[Wizzerd]

Regarding this whole rep thing for Pokemon, I doubt that there's a certain quota that has to be meant. As I've said before, Super Smash Bros. is not a Congress. Representation could be off the wall.

Umm, yes it is. The representation admittedly isn't perfect, with for example Mother and Donkey Kong having the same amount of reps, but the fact that it is balanced at all proves that it is. Take series like Mother and Fire Emblem who have popular characters in abundance yet ended up with two reps because that's all they needed, and take a series like Zelda which has four by resorting to an alt form of Link to meet the quota of four. Mewtwo only really has a chance if there is no fifth generation (which would be the absolute preferable situation, as every candidate could get in).

 

[Tacel]

I still want Tubba Blubba in Smash 4 as a playable character.
Does anyone else agree with me?

 

[Wizzerd]

I still want Tubba Blubba in Smash 4 as a playable character.
Does anyone else agree with me?

Why would a one-game boss get in over Paper Mario, the main character of the series?

 

[Tacel]

I never said that he would get over before Paper Mario.
Jeez...