[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Dogboy]

New characters- Waluigi, retro (like, 2d, g and w style, plus older versions from previous smash games- ssb1 Kirby-yay!) and ex versions of preexisting characters.
Examples of ex mario- smb3 or smw mario with the ability to glide short distances and hover/cape spin/ spin jump. Tourney illegal probably.
EX2- Old School wario. Specials= side tackle, back side giant throw, up pile driver, (fart may remain), ground pound.
EX3- Retro Bowser- specials are hammer throw side, fireball neu, stomp down, and his recovery up. Footstooling does some damage.

Retro stages like SMB3 with old school powerups appearing there (like more shrooms in mario stages and more onions on wario stages- would work on all m/w stages probably- working warp pies that port you across the stage-w/ limited use, semi random exit points and trajectory-like the rocket pipes in nsmb- and some lag on entry and exit, I know a lot of people would just go in and out of em all day-etc. although it would be fun w/o those restrictions..)

More powerups relating to each ch's game. (like the green shroom etc.)

A super meter for final smashes maybe?

Possible 3rfd party ch's- Megaman, Snake, Sonic.

More retro enemies on retro stages like goombas, lakitu's, metroids, those crazy wario enemy things, etc.
Better stage creator with more space and game themed set pieces.
Built in online sharing of said stages.
Better online matchmaking.
Faster, more lag free play.
In game tutorials for each ch like in sf4.
light Character customization/ color edit, abilty to put "logo" on characters like in Animal Crossing DS or Mario Kart DS.
Ability to use miis in some way.
Better saving of control settings, as in when you got to your name, your setting is enabled, and the ability for the game to recognize your game.
ranking??
more online modes on "w/ anyone" and "w/ frineds" like custom and coin brawls.
More options on custom brawl.
Easier tilts.
easier short hop and fast fall.
ACTUAL combos, maybe?!
Smashboards room for brawling with yooz guyz
warioware wario needs to be even crazier and more random.
wario waft as a final smash would be nice.
DS connectivity.
Bring back the old school adv mode.
return of ss emmisary.

pac man could be a ch, but his final smash and retro ver would just OWN everybody. they'd all turn blue and lose control/ get backwards control of their chs, and he'd eat them all.
other than that he'd probably be like he was in pcmn world 3.
side spec= pac roll, aaa combo equals punch punch, down b would be triple bounce. don't know about up, the hanglider from his genesis game? a propeller sprouting from his head? a simple third jump?

 

[Big-Cat]

I would have a super meter for special moves. If you've played Street Fighter IV, there are EX attacks which consume a fourth of the meter. These moves are stronger than their normal counterparts and have special properties in some cases. This could help set up different strategies. Also, like in SF4, if only increases by attacking.

If the meter is full, maybe there should be a super attack. Nothing final smash or broken worthy, but a small stream of combos. For example, Captain Falcon can have a Falcon Knee into Falcon Punch combo.

 

[Dogboy]

I would have a super meter for special moves. If you've played Street Fighter IV, there are EX attacks which consume a fourth of the meter. These moves are stronger than their normal counterparts and have special properties in some cases. This could help set up different strategies. Also, like in SF4, if only increases by attacking.

If the meter is full, maybe there should be a super attack. Nothing final smash or broken worthy, but a small stream of combos. For example, Captain Falcon can have a Falcon Knee into Falcon Punch combo.

Or just a REALLY big SUPER FALCOLN PAWNCH! like sol's tyrant rave, but smaller
ex's could be quicker f punches and kicks w/ slightly less power but more knockback velocity.
ex lasers would make shdl ing a lot easier and more effective, It could fire 2 quick lazers at once.
falcos would fire one and have you press again for another more meter drain and slower

fox super suggetsion- big fire fox or multiple fox illusions. or just a combo.
super taun- peppy jsut comes in in his arwing and says do a barrrell roll over and over while doing br's and shooting randomly. you have the opportunity to smash him to the blast line.

Other super could be just rapid punch to falcon kick to normal falcon pawnch.
or a bg fk
or a super rapid punch or a super knee.
people would SO abuse ex kirby moves like ex stone. there'd have to be some terrible endlag.
EXs would also make for an EVEN FASTER sonic. now that is SCARY.
on the other hand, ex fireballs with some knockback would be ok. you could dodge those.
and how dya suppose you'd do ex specials? by smashing it as opposed to tilting it? that would make for some randomness. I suggest a really hard smash or pressing b twice.

EX's are from friggin darkstalkers, keke.They were adapted to sf in sf3. They were called something else in ds though.

and they need to give dorf his friggin SWORD and some SPEED!

 

[Big-Cat]

Or just a REALLY big SUPER FALCOLN PAWNCH! like sol's tyrant rave, but smaller
ex's could be quicker f punches and kicks w/ slightly less power but more knockback velocity.
ex lasers would make shdl ing a lot easier and more effective, It could fire 2 quick lazers at once.
falcos would fire one and have you press again for another more meter drain and slower

EX's are from friggin darkstalkers, keke.They were adapted to sf in sf3. They were called something else in ds though.
!

I was thinking that the EX Falcon Punch would allow for Capt. Falcon to turn around whenever he wants when he does the Falcon Punch. I think EXs should be exclusive to the special moves only.

I didn't know Darkstalkers invented the EX attack. Nonetheless, I think it would add some depth to Brawl easily. Here are a couple I have in mind.

Mario: EX Fireball
Shoots out three fireballs just like SMB.

Peach: EX Turnip
Raises the chances for a dead face turnip.

Zelda: EX Din's Fire
Larger blast radius.

Lucas: EX PK Hado-I mean-Fire
Starts with the initial explosion followed by a second one, but not as strong.

Samus: EX Missle
Fires Super Missles

 

[smashmaniac2008]

Mewtwo's Return (buffed) Isaac and Skapon

 

[Arcadenik]

I think that 44 is probably a reasonable and realistic number for SSB4. I noticed that the roster grows by about 12 in each game.

SSB: 12
Melee: 25 (12x2=24+1=25)
Brawl: 35 (12x3=36-1=35)
SSB4: 44 (12-1=11x4=44)

I also noticed how the character select screen grows in each game when you unlock more characters. So, I modeled my roster after the pattern.

SSB: 4x2 (8) to 6x2 (12)
Melee: 7x2 (14) to 9x3 (25)
Brawl: 8x3 (21) to 9x4 (35)
SSB4: 9x3 (26) to 9x5 (44)

With 44 as the roster limit, I needed a way to balance the roster. I looked at how Sakurai did the roster in all three games, especially Brawl, and I liked how he organized it. It showed how Sakurai thought out the roster very well and it looked very professional. This is what I came up:

Other Nintendo Franchises - 6
Mario Main Series - 5
Zelda Franchises - 5
Pokemon Series - 5
Donkey Kong Series - 4
Famicom Disk System Franchises - 4
Kirby Series - 3
Star Fox Series - 3
Famicom Franchises - 3
Mario Spin-Off Franchises - 2
Mother Series - 2
Fire Emblem - 2

The 14 newcomers are bolded. The 18 unlockable characters have asterisks.

Column 1
1. Mario
2. Luigi *
3. Peach
4. Toad *
5. Bowser

Column 2
6. Donkey Kong
7. Diddy Kong
8. Dixie Kong
9. King K. Rool *
10. Starfy

Column 3
11. Yoshi
12. Wario
13. Kirby
14. Meta Knight
15. King Dedede

Column 4
16. Captain Falcon *
17. Olimar
18. Fox
19. Wolf *
20. Krystal *

Column 5
21. Pokemon Trainer
22. Pikachu
23. Meowth *
24. Lucario *
25. 5th Gen Pokemon *

Column 6
26. Ness *
27. Lucas
28. Marth *
29. New FE Lord
30. Commanding Officer

Column 7
31. Link
32. Zelda / Sheik
33. Ganondorf *
34. Toon Link *
35. Tingle *

Column 8
36. Takamaru
37. Samus / Zero Suit Samus
38. Pit
39. Little Mac
40. Captain Rainbow *

Column 9
41. Mr. Game & Watch *
42. Ice Climbers
43. Hunting Dog *
44. R.O.B. *
45. Random

 

[majora_787]

I kinda get lost in the conversation, so I won't even attempt to continue it. ^^"

If someone would be so kind as to fill me in? Oh, and also, my Epic Roster Project has both reached 250 fighters, and has begun its "SPECIALS" edition. When finished, every entry will have at least four specials and three final smash options, as well as some alternate costumes.

Just saying.

EDIT: Oh, rosters? Then this would be a PERFECT time to talk about my EPIC ROSTER PROJECT.

I could, out of the 250 fighters on it, guess EVERYONE on SSB4's roster! How awesome would that be? xD

 

[Pieman0920]

Column 1
1. Mario
2. Luigi *
3. Peach
4. Toad *
5. Bowser

Toad....No. Toad's just a generic race at this point, and unlike Yoshi, doesn't have his own game series. To pass up on both Paper Mario and Bowser Jr in favor of him seems down right unlikely, as both of them not only make better fighters (Toad hasn't done much of that in like forever) but they are also more topical. The only way I could see this changing is if NSMB Wii actually does use those blue and yellow toads, though that seems really dumb. (I'd hope they'd at least take one out for Peach, but speculating about that game is getting a bit off target)

Column 2
6. Donkey Kong
7. Diddy Kong
8. Dixie Kong
9. King K. Rool *
10. Starfy

While I do think that Dixie would certainy get in before K.Rool, I don't think she'll make it in next time. With that being said, I see no reason why the DK series would actually get two new characters. Yes, its the 4th best selling franchise Nintendo has, but mostly all those sales were in the past. As of now, its declined significantly, and as I posted earlier, the Wario series is doing better than it right now. Thus, it makes no sense to me that a series such as that would get no new characters, while this one gets two. Starfy/Stafy/whatever is okay though.

Column 4
16. Captain Falcon *
17. Olimar
18. Fox
19. Wolf *
20. Krystal *

Instead of just saying negative things, I'd like to say that this is in my eyes the best technical direction the SF series can go if it does actually use Krystal. Falco is the bigger clone than Wolf, and the one who technically contributes less to the series. Still, I think its possible that Krystal won't get added at all, and it may just stay the same as it is in Brawl. Also the SF series would be on top~

Column 5
21. Pokemon Trainer
22. Pikachu
23. Meowth *
24. Lucario *
25. 5th Gen Pokemon *

Pikachu would be on the top.

Also, you shouldn't really put in place holder things like that, since when Smash 4 comes out is a mystery, as well as Gen 5.

Column 6
26. Ness *
27. Lucas
28. Marth *
29. New FE Lord
30. Commanding Officer

Who is Commanding Officer? Is it some type of generic Advance Wars CO? That won't fly in my opinion. Also, I don't think Ike will get cut. He's his own character, unlike Roy, and is also popular. Whether FE gets three spots is up in the air I guess, I don't think Ike will be sacrificed for one.

Column 8
36. Takamaru
37. Samus / Zero Suit Samus
38. Pit
39. Little Mac
40. Captain Rainbow *

No Ridley..tsk tsk tsk. Also Samus would be on top, not Takamaru. Captain Rainbow may also be a bit unlikely seeing how his game is not only Japan only, but also sold poorly. I'd also rather have Samurai Goroh as playable instead of Takamaru, but that's just me.

Column 9
41. Mr. Game & Watch *
42. Ice Climbers
43. Hunting Dog *
44. R.O.B. *
45. Random

Hunting Dog....that's just a bad choice. Sorry to be so blunt, but it is. It'd look pretty bad fighting, it has no place fighting, and it doesn't deserve to get in at all.

 

[professor mgw]

Just give me

Megaman
crash
rayman
pac-man

and i'll call it a day.

 

[BSP]

No tripping. Stop trying to make mario be in the middle.(a.k.a. buff mario)

 

[Clownbot]

I think it's pretty logical to make Mario a mid-tier, all-around character. He's Nintendo's mascot, which is why they do that. They make him into a good character for beginners. It's fitting, if you ask me.

 

[pacmansays]

Hmm, my list of characters I believe should be added


KK Slider (Animal Crossing)
Phoenix Wright (Ace Attorney)
Skull Kid (Zelda)
Viewtiful Joe (Viewtiful Joe)
Bowser Jr (Mario)
Chibi Robo (Chibi Robo)
Rabbid (Rayman Raving Rabbids)
Professor Layton (Professor Layton)
Megaman (Mega man)

Not sure about any others but I think we should add more franchises to the mix and build upon ones with only one representative

 

[Arcadenik]

Response to my post.

Toad doesn't need to have his own game series to be playable as much as Bowser Jr. does. The difference is that Toad is an original while Bowser Jr. is a derivation. Most of Mario characters can be divided into two types: original and derivation.

Original: Mario
Derivations: Luigi, Wario, Waluigi, Dr. Mario, Shadow Mario, Baby Mario, Baby Luigi, Baby Wario

Original: Peach
Derivations: Daisy, Rosalina, Baby Peach, Baby Daisy

Original: Bowser
Derivations: Bowser Jr., Baby Bowser, Koopalings, Dry Bowser

Original: Toad
Derivations: Toadsworth, Toadette

Derivations have a tendency to be clones. Luigi and Dr. Mario to Mario. Lucas to Ness. Falco and Wolf to Fox. Young Link and Toon Link to Link. So, to avoid adding more clones, I picked Toad.

I added two more Donkey Kong characters because at least Dixie Kong and King K. Rool are pretty much the last of the key characters of the series not yet playable. What makes one WarioWare employee more important over the other employees? There aren't any other important Wario characters besides Wario himself.

I think it is reasonable to have a placeholder. It is highly likely that there would be a whole new generation of Pokemon sometime after HeartGold/SoulSilver comes out and its likely a 5th Gen Pokemon would have a starring role in a Pokemon movie - that is the Pokemon who would likely be playable in SSB4.

Commanding Officer would be the generic Advance Wars CO, yes, much like Pokemon Trainer in Brawl. To reflect on the fact that the COs don't fight but the soldiers do in Advance Wars, I have Andy in his tank where he directs a team of infantry soldiers to do most of the fighting.

Yes, that's right, no Ridley. I don't see what's the big deal about him. He's too big. He's twice the size of Bowser who is the largest playable character in Brawl. If Bowser picked up a Super Mushroom, he would be the same size as Ridley. Ridley's hand alone is too big it practically wrapped around Samus's body in the Subspace Emissary. His head length is almost the same as Bowser's height. His whole body from head to tail is roughly half the length of the Falcon Flyer. He's perfect as a boss.

Also, using Bowser's massive size in 3D Mario games is not a good argument to resize Ridley. I could easily argue that Bowser could have used a Super Mushroom or a Mega Mushroom to get that big in 3D Mario games. I think that some people are in denial about Ridley's size when they insist that he can be resized down to Samus's size or even Bowser's size.

What's so bad about playing as the dog from Duck Hunt? He would be the surprise retro character of SSB4 like Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B. were in Melee and Brawl.

 

[Clownbot]

You know, Arcadenik, I REALLY appreciated your argument...

Yes, that's right, no Ridley. I don't see what's the big deal about him. He's too big. He's twice the size of Bowser who is the largest playable character in Brawl. If Bowser picked up a Super Mushroom, he would be the same size as Ridley. Ridley's hand alone is too big it practically wrapped around Samus's body in the Subspace Emissary. His head length is almost the same as Bowser's height. His whole body from head to tail is roughly half the length of the Falcon Flyer. He's perfect as a boss.

...up until this point.

 

[Big-Cat]

Toad....No. Toad's just a generic race at this point, and unlike Yoshi, doesn't have his own game series. To pass up on both Paper Mario and Bowser Jr in favor of him seems down right unlikely, as both of them not only make better fighters (Toad hasn't done much of that in like forever) but they are also more topical. The only way I could see this changing is if NSMB Wii actually does use those blue and yellow toads, though that seems really dumb. (I'd hope they'd at least take one out for Peach, but speculating about that game is getting a bit off target)

Well, the same argument could be held for R.O.B. to an extent. In the SSE, THE R.O.B. is the Ancient Minister, the leader of the identical looking R.O.B.s. Therefore, if another story mode is done, the Toad that's playable will be a special Toad among all the other Toads. Anyway, I'm starting to think that the "generic character" argument is not all that mighty. It works for things like Space Pirates, but I don't think so in this case.

 

[Clownbot]

Agreed. Just to add on to that, Toad is the only one of the Big Eight Mario characters to not be playable, and all of the Pokemon characters are pretty generic.

 

[Pieman0920]

Toad doesn't need to have his own game series to be playable as much as Bowser Jr. does. The difference is that Toad is an original while Bowser Jr. is a derivation. Most of Mario characters can be divided into two types: original and derivation.

Original: Mario
Derivations: Luigi, Wario, Waluigi, Dr. Mario, Shadow Mario, Baby Mario, Baby Luigi, Baby Wario

Original: Peach
Derivations: Daisy, Rosalina, Baby Peach, Baby Daisy

Original: Bowser
Derivations: Bowser Jr., Baby Bowser, Koopalings, Dry Bowser

Original: Toad
Derivations: Toadsworth, Toadette

Derivations have a tendency to be clones. Luigi and Dr. Mario to Mario. Lucas to Ness. Falco and Wolf to Fox. Young Link and Toon Link to Link. So, to avoid adding more clones, I picked Toad.

That's still not a valid excuse though. Both Bowser Jr. and Paper Mario are types of characters that should not turn out to be clones, due to the fact that they have not been protrayed as such in their games. Heck, Wario there isn't a clone in the slightest. The problem with the hypothetical non-clone nature of Toad though is that he has so few moves, and those few moves that he has are mostly used in the games already.

I added two more Donkey Kong characters because at least Dixie Kong and King K. Rool are pretty much the last of the key characters of the series not yet playable. What makes one WarioWare employee more important over the other employees? There aren't any other important Wario characters besides Wario himself.

Mona, Jimmy T, and 9-Volt are the main employees under Wario, and Mona gets more screen time the others (Seeing as Jimmy's is kind of split between his clones) so she'd be the front runner. While it may be suspect to give the Wario series its second character, it should certainly get them before a washed up series like the DK's gets its third, let alone fourth.

I think it is reasonable to have a placeholder. It is highly likely that there would be a whole new generation of Pokemon sometime after HeartGold/SoulSilver comes out and its likely a 5th Gen Pokemon would have a starring role in a Pokemon movie - that is the Pokemon who would likely be playable in SSB4.

But for the sake of this, you shouldn't make assumptions. For all you know there could be Gen 6 or even 7 by the time we reach SSB4, just like we had two generations between Melee and Brawl. Incidently SSB4 could be released really quickly, and no new gen would have shown up. Place holders like this are really a dumb inclusion as far as I'm concerned.

Commanding Officer would be the generic Advance Wars CO, yes, much like Pokemon Trainer in Brawl. To reflect on the fact that the COs don't fight but the soldiers do in Advance Wars, I have Andy in his tank where he directs a team of infantry soldiers to do most of the fighting.

That makes little sense unless they switch between a different type. Plus with Captain Rainbow, the infantry soldiers have been given a personality, so you may as well use them. On top of that, the Pokemon Trainer is a generic character meant to represent the player, while Andy is a established character that you may or may not choose to play as at certain times. Thus you'd simply say it is Andy, instead of making it a generic CO.

Yes, that's right, no Ridley. I don't see what's the big deal about him. He's too big. He's twice the size of Bowser who is the largest playable character in Brawl. If Bowser picked up a Super Mushroom, he would be the same size as Ridley. Ridley's hand alone is too big it practically wrapped around Samus's body in the Subspace Emissary. His head length is almost the same as Bowser's height. His whole body from head to tail is roughly half the length of the Falcon Flyer. He's perfect as a boss.

Ridley was smaller in the SSBM intro though. He can easily be resized without any problem.

Also, using Bowser's massive size in 3D Mario games is not a good argument to resize Ridley. I could easily argue that Bowser could have used a Super Mushroom or a Mega Mushroom to get that big in 3D Mario games. I think that some people are in denial about Ridley's size when they insist that he can be resized down to Samus's size or even Bowser's size.

....No...You can't argue that really. Bowser is just that big.....He's always been that big. 2D Mario games included. He doesn't use mushrooms either, since in that case, he'd shrink when hit too much. Seriously, that's the dumbest counter argument to that point I've ever seen.

What's so bad about playing as the dog from Duck Hunt? He would be the surprise retro character of SSB4 like Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B. were in Melee and Brawl.

No, the duck hunt dog isn't like those two. Mr. Game & Watch is the main/only character of those old G&W portable systems. ROB is a peripheral. The duck hunt dog is just a retro character who was never playable, showed no real form of combat, and played a minor role in one game. Despite his lack of mobility, Diskun would fit this type of thing much better.

Well, the same argument could be held for R.O.B. to an extent. In the SSE, THE R.O.B. is the Ancient Minister, the leader of the identical looking R.O.B.s. Therefore, if another story mode is done, the Toad that's playable will be a special Toad among all the other Toads. Anyway, I'm starting to think that the "generic character" argument is not all that mighty. It works for things like Space Pirates, but I don't think so in this case.

R.O.B. here was created for Brawl though specifically, as was his hordes of clones. The Toad of old is a established character who eventually turned into a generic species. Its not really the same thing. And plus, if you were letting generic species in by simply just naming that one was special over all others, I'd think we'd see a Goomba or a Koopa instead of Toad, since the overall incluence of those generic enemies is much more noticable.

Agreed. Just to add on to that, Toad is the only one of the Big Eight Mario characters to not be playable, and all of the Pokemon characters are pretty generic.

By big 8, do you mean the racers from Mario Kart 64? If so, you have to understand that times have changed from then. Toad's not as important as he was back then. Look at those Mario & Sonic games, and you'll notice that Toad's not even playable there.

 

[sundayseclipse]

the only reason i would want duck hunt dog playable is to kill the mother fu**er for laubing at me every time i missed.

maby he could replace sand bag. huzah.lol

for the millionth time toad can be playable he has qualitys and a chance

and for the kazillionth time, RIDLEYS NOT TO BIG AND DESERVES TO BE IN DAGUM IT.

 

[Arcadenik]

Pieman, your weak arguments against Hunting Dog are weak.

Was never playable =/= Cannot be playable in Smash

If this was the case, we wouldn't have Zelda, Sheik, and Ganondorf. Though, you would be a hypocrite if you are using this argument against the Duck Hunt dog when you are supporting your precious Ridley when he never was playable.

Showed no real form of combat =/= Cannot be playable in Smash

If this were true, we would never have Zelda, Sheik, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Captain Falcon, and especially R.O.B. Seriously, this argument holds no water. It hasn't held any water since the original.

Played a minor role in one game =/= Cannot be playable

The dog is pretty much the star of Duck Hunt. The dog practically runs the game whether you (the hunter) play or not. He gets the ducks out of the grass for you to shoot and picks them up when you are successful and laugh at you when you fail. People still cry about how evil the dog was for the last 25 years.

Diskun would fit in Smash than the Duck Hunt dog? LOL WUT How would Diskun fight without arms? How would Diskun grab the ledges without arms? How would Diskun grab and throw characters without arms? He is a logo. Why not have the Wii's two i's playable while we are at it.

Oh, and times has changed since then for Ridley. He was not as small as he was back then. It has been established that Ridley is too big - even Metroid: Zero Mission (the remake of the original Metroid) showed that he's that big.

Like it or not, Toad is playable in the upcoming New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Toad has shown some experience in combat even though he doesn't show it as often but he still has that experience.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I just really would wish for Geno in SSB4.......

As do I but there's not all too much to go off of right at the moment aside from most of the major developers who worked on the game working for Nintendo via Alphadream and the "backlist" character theory concerning how most of the new characters will be picked. On the upside though, SMRPG is still in the top 10 best selling VC games in all three major regions and fan demand for him is still decent so hopefully that may at least bring on a true sequel to SMRPG.

Bide your time friend, it's not yet the time to act...

 

[JBRPG]

(Quote about Geno)

As do I but there's not all too much to go off of right at the moment aside from most of the major developers who worked on the game working for Nintendo via Alphadream and the "backlist" character theory concerning how most of the new characters will be picked. On the upside though, SMRPG is still in the top 10 best selling VC games in all three major regions and fan demand for him is still decent so hopefully that may at least bring on a true sequel to SMRPG.

Bide your time friend, it's not yet the time to act...

I believe he's more suited as an assist trophy or other kind of help item in the next installment. For Geno: He can make his existing spells to do damage to the holder's opponents.

 

[Arcadenik]

Lets consider this... the Mario franchise has at least 100 games out already and Geno only had one major role in one game and one minor cameo in another, so why should this obscure character be playable before iconic and established characters like Toad, Bowser Jr., and Paper Mario?

 

[JBRPG]

Toad doesn't need to have his own game series to be playable as much as Bowser Jr. does. The difference is that Toad is an original while Bowser Jr. is a derivation. Most of Mario characters can be divided into two types: original and derivation.

Original: Mario
Derivations: Luigi, Wario, Waluigi, Dr. Mario, Shadow Mario, Baby Mario, Baby Luigi, Baby Wario

Original: Peach
Derivations: Daisy, Rosalina, Baby Peach, Baby Daisy

Original: Bowser
Derivations: Bowser Jr., Baby Bowser, Koopalings, Dry Bowser

Original: Toad
Derivations: Toadsworth, Toadette

Derivations have a tendency to be clones. Luigi and Dr. Mario to Mario. Lucas to Ness. Falco and Wolf to Fox. Young Link and Toon Link to Link. So, avoid adding more clones.

A good Smash Bros. Game should not be invaded by a bunch of derivations.

Pieman, your weak arguments against Hunting Dog are weak.

Was never playable =/= Cannot be playable in Smash

If this was the case, we wouldn't have Zelda, Sheik, and Ganondorf. Though, you would be a hypocrite if you are using this argument against the Duck Hunt dog when you are supporting your precious Ridley when he never was playable.

Showed no real form of combat =/= Cannot be playable in Smash

If this were true, we would never have Zelda, Sheik, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Captain Falcon, and especially R.O.B. Seriously, this argument holds no water. It hasn't held any water since the original.

Played a minor role in one game =/= Cannot be playable

The dog is pretty much the star of Duck Hunt. The dog practically runs the game whether you (the hunter) play or not. He gets the ducks out of the grass for you to shoot and picks them up when you are successful and laugh at you when you fail. People still cry about how evil the dog was for the last 25 years.

Good examples of why people should not use useless characters in Smash Bros. unless they can be decoration items.

Lets consider this... the Mario franchise has at least 100 games out already and Geno only had one major role in one game and one minor cameo in another, so why should this obscure character be playable before iconic and established characters like Toad, Bowser Jr., and Paper Mario?

Geno may not have much experience in physical combat, but he does have a bunch of magic spells which qualifies him as an assist item.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Lets consider this... the Mario franchise has at least 100 games out already and Geno only had one major role in one game and one minor cameo in another, so why should this obscure character be playable before iconic and established characters like Toad, Bowser Jr., and Paper Mario?

Who said that he had to get in before certain people? The term "along side" has alluded people since 2005 but that's perfectly fine I guess. Regardless, just to keep the conversation brief and to the point, he offers something genuinely unique amongst most of the Mario choices. Toad's generic, past experience shows that Bowser Jr would probably end up as a Luigified Bowser at best (not saying that Bowser Jr doesn't have potential but the developers usually take the easy route when possible when it comes to characters), and, despite the differences between the two, Mario doesn't need to be represented twice by himself as Paper Mario. As I mentioned before, for such an obscure character and not being playable in another game since 1996, he still has a decent fan base and fan demand is still pretty high. (Honestly, a video on youtube saying that you can unlock Geno using a glitch has over a million views and videos simply featuring the Forest Maze theme often go in the high thousands like Rawest Forest which now has close to 1.5 million views.) Obscure, yes, but not so obscure as there is no demand or less people would know who he was than say, the Ice Climbers.

Again, I really don't want to debate this at this present time because it's too early for it given what I've already mentioned.

 

[Big-Cat]

T
R.O.B. here was created for Brawl though specifically, as was his hordes of clones. The Toad of old is a established character who eventually turned into a generic species. Its not really the same thing. And plus, if you were letting generic species in by simply just naming that one was special over all others, I'd think we'd see a Goomba or a Koopa instead of Toad, since the overall incluence of those generic enemies is much more noticable.

No, R.O.B. was an NES accessory that somehow became playable.

 

[Arcadenik]

Lets look at Yoshi. He's an individual and a species.

The individual Yoshi is playable in:
Super Mario World (it could be argued that he's only in the Yoshi's Island 2 level)
Tetris Attack
Super Mario 64 DS
Mario Kart series
Mario Tennis series
Mario Party series
Mario Golf series
Mario Strikers series
Mario Baseball series
Super Smash Bros. series

The Yoshi species is playable in:
Super Mario World (including the many other green Yoshis found everywhere in the game)
Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island (the green Yoshi is not the individual Yoshi because this is the prequel to all Mario games and the individual Yoshi hasn't been born yet)
Yoshi's Story (same as above)
Yoshi's Island DS (same as above but the individual Yoshi is born in the end of the game)
Super Mario Sunshine
Super Mario Galaxy 2
New Super Mario Bros. Wii

The individual Toad is playable in:
Super Mario Bros. 2
Wario's Woods
Mario Kart series
Mario Tennis series
Mario Party series
Mario Golf series
Mario Strikers series
Mario Baseball series

The Toad species is playable in:
New Super Mario Bros. Wii

The individual Toad can be playable in SSB4. His palette swaps can be the other generic Toads like blue Toad, green Toad, yellow Toad, and purple Toad (all from Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Galaxy) plus individual Toads like Toadette (pink Toad) and Toadsworth (brown Toad).

KumaOso said it right. The "generic character" argument isn't all that mighty and there are some exceptions. We already have Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pichu, Lucario, Yoshi, Mr. Game & Watch (he's the amalagation of all the Game & Watch characters), and R.O.B. (I'm sure there were thousands of Robotic Operating Buddies sold in the 1980's).

 

[Fatmanonice]

Pikachu- Stars in several games and one of the leading characters in the manga and anime.
Jigglypuff- A reoccuring character in the first generation manga and anime.
Pichu- Star of its own manga but, even then, no longer in Smash Bros so its a moot point.
Lucario- The one in Brawl is basically the one from the Pokemon movie, Pokemon and Mystery of Mew.
Yoshi- As you said, the star of several of his own titles and even has his own franchise.
Mr. Game and Watch- Again, the star of his own franchise.
ROB- Basically the controller for the games Stack Up and Gyromite and is a main character in the sense that he is nessecary to help Proffesor Hector and Vector solve all the game's puzzles.

As others have said in the past, Toad has pretty much been replaced by Toadworth in recent years and, even then, the character offers very little when it comes to moveset potential. In itself, I believe there are more interesting Mario characters that could take a spot instead. Canon importance should be considered also as pointing to mostly the spinoffs is not a good sign towards the character's overall significance.

 

[Pieman0920]

Pieman, your weak arguments against Hunting Dog are weak.

Was never playable =/= Cannot be playable in Smash

If this was the case, we wouldn't have Zelda, Sheik, and Ganondorf. Though, you would be a hypocrite if you are using this argument against the Duck Hunt dog when you are supporting your precious Ridley when he never was playable.

Its a matter of a combination of things. The lack of playability does not automatically take him out, but rather hurts him. His importance in other fields is what could make him bypass this, but for him, there's nothing else.

Showed no real form of combat =/= Cannot be playable in Smash

If this were true, we would never have Zelda, Sheik, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Captain Falcon, and especially R.O.B. Seriously, this argument holds no water. It hasn't held any water since the original.

You're wrong on a good number of those never shown to have combat, such as the SF characters. Still as I said, its factor that hurts him that he could overcome if he had any redeeming qualities....but he doesn't. On top of that, how exacty would a duck retreving dog fight? Would he just go around and bite people. Before you spout on about how others could have a moveset so he should to, at least give me your idea of his specials and FS.

Played a minor role in one game =/= Cannot be playable

The dog is pretty much the star of Duck Hunt. The dog practically runs the game whether you (the hunter) play or not. He gets the ducks out of the grass for you to shoot and picks them up when you are successful and laugh at you when you fail. People still cry about how evil the dog was for the last 25 years.

You're the star of Duck Hunt. The player. The enemies (not really eneimes...more like targets) are ducks. The dog is just the supporting character. He's really the equivilent of Doc Louis, only that even Doc Louis is more desrving seeing as he's been in two games.

Diskun would fit in Smash than the Duck Hunt dog? LOL WUT How would Diskun fight without arms? How would Diskun grab the ledges without arms? How would Diskun grab and throw characters without arms? He is a logo. Why not have the Wii's two i's playable while we are at it.

Diskun doesn't deserve to be in, even more so than the Duck Hunt dog, but he's more in line with G&W and ROB. Those two "wtf characters" are not relegated to being standard retro characters like Pit, ICs, and so on. If you really wanted to keep up a trend like them, you'd have to go with someone like Diskun, because they are more than just a retro character. The dog isn't like them though, and is only retro, so he'd be closer to Takamaru than anything.

Oh, and times has changed since then for Ridley. He was not as small as he was back then. It has been established that Ridley is too big - even Metroid: Zero Mission (the remake of the original Metroid) showed that he's that big.

Ridley changes size every game....much like Bowser. Bowser was shown in the last Galaxy game as way too big to be playable, as he was in Sunshine, NSMB, 64 and so on. Heck, Olimar and Kirby shouldn't be playable either due to their size, right? One's the size of a quarter, and the other is only 8 inches tall. Pikachu was shown in the intro of 64 to not even go past a standard Pokemon Trainer's knee, yet look at him compared to the PT now.

Seriously, the size argument against Ridley is just moronic given that this is Smash.

Like it or not, Toad is playable in the upcoming New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Toad has shown some experience in combat even though he doesn't show it as often but he still has that experience.

Like picking up and throwing turnips? I'm sure that such a move has never been used by any other Smash character. But what else is there besides that? Can you think of anything? If you try to make a Mario Sports type moveset that's kind of pointless too, since Waluigi would make more sense with something like that, and we all know how uneeded he is. Also two different types of Toads are playable in the new game. Not the Toad of the past. So even if they don't change them, they are still not Toad, and thus he isn't playable there.

Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island (the green Yoshi is not the individual Yoshi because this is the prequel to all Mario games and the individual Yoshi hasn't been born yet)

You know there is a main green Yoshi in this game that you use more than the others, right? I don't know if you'd technically count that as the main Yoshi or not, but it very well could be. (I guess the best way to think about Yoshi is in the same sense as Link?)

Also the Yoshi in SMG changes color on its own, so it could be the main Yoshi.

 

[pacmansays]

If you want to have a good idea of who will be in the next series then look at it froma fiscal perspective: who if included will make Nintendo most money?

Sonic and Snake would bring in more money as they are 3rd party characters that are recognisable to a non-nintendo audience. Most characters come from best selling franchises and some franchises that need to be invigorated have been aided by SSB. I first got a N64, did I know who Samus was or Ness? No, but it made me aware of their franchises and since then Samus has had a massive resurgence and I am sure Kid Icarus will do the same.

So what will make Nintendo money? Who put in will sell more copies of the game or more copies of other games? Which franchises does Nintendo and their fans want brought back?

 

[JBRPG]

Pikachu- Stars in several games and one of the leading characters in the manga and anime.
Jigglypuff- A reoccuring character in the first generation manga and anime.
Pichu- Star of its own manga but, even then, no longer in Smash Bros so its a moot point.
Lucario- The one in Brawl is basically the one from the Pokemon movie, Pokemon and Mystery of Mew.
Yoshi- As you said, the star of several of his own titles and even has his own franchise.
Mr. Game and Watch- Again, the star of his own franchise.
ROB- Basically the controller for the games Stack Up and Gyromite and is a main character in the sense that he is nessecary to help Proffesor Hector and Vector solve all the game's puzzles.

As others have said in the past, Toad has pretty much been replaced by Toadworth in recent years and, even then, the character offers very little when it comes to moveset potential. In itself, I believe there are more interesting Mario characters that could take a spot instead. Canon importance should be considered also as pointing to mostly the spinoffs is not a good sign towards the character's overall significance.

Yoshi has enough moves to become a fighter while Toad, on the other hand, they usually talk with Mario and friends, and they also do duties for Peach.

 

[Wisp]

Ridley for SSB4. :] I really like Pieman0920's argument for his size--Olimar is supposed to be roughly the size of a quarter. If they can make him that much bigger, they ought to be able to shrink Ridley to something acceptable. Besides, Metroid is a very successful franchise: it deserves more than two characters. Who better than Ridley to fill the void? :3

 

[Arcadenik]

You cannot compare Bowser, Olimar, and Kirby to Ridley. Lets look at this way...

Kirby is supposed to be 8 inches in Kirby games. But he does not look 8 inches in Smash games when he's standing next to Mario and Link. Kirby has no one to scale with so he fitted in just fine. So, Meta Knight and King Dedede are to scale with Kirby so they fit in just fine, too.

Olimar is supposed to be the size of a quarter in Pikmin games. But he does not look that way in Smash games when he's standing next to Mario and Link. But there is no one to scale Olimar with so he fits right in just fine. Some of the Bulborbs are pretty huge in Pikmin games and they are pretty much scaled with Olimar in the Distant Planet stage.

Samus is probably 6 feet tall in Metroid games. She does not look 6 feet tall in Smash games when she's standing next to Kirby or Olimar but she fits in just fine because there's no one to compare her with.... except Ridley. Ridley has been consistently depicted as much bigger than Samus to the point he can lift her with one hand (just like in the SSE) so he is scaled to be much bigger than Samus in Smash games just like in Metroid games.

Bowser is normally depicted as just bigger than Mario in Mario games and Mario RPG games. If he's much bigger than Mario in some games like SMS and SMG, it could easily be explained away with Super Mushrooms, Mega Mushrooms, or even Kamek's magic - even if it happened off-screen. So, Bowser is to scale with Mario in Smash games while Petey Piranha is much bigger just like in SMS and he's to scale with Mario, too.

So what if the individual Toad is not playable in NSMBWii? The individual Yoshi isn't even playable in any of Yoshi's Island games anyway. You only play as the generic Yoshis, not the individual Yoshi. The individual Yoshi wasn't even born until the end of Yoshi's Island DS. The individual Yoshi is one of the Star Children like Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Wario, and Donkey Kong. Of course, if all the generic Yoshis can fight like they do in Yoshi games, the individual Yoshi can do the same. So, if the generic Toads can fight in NSMBWii, then the individual Toad is capable of fighting just the same.

Also, a character not having enough moves does not mean that character cannot be playable in Smash. When will people learn? R.O.B. virtually had no moves at all. The only moves that you would expect from R.O.B. are the gyros and the spinning arms (you had to spin R.O.B.'s arms to play Gyromite and Stack-Up). But the rest are all made-up but as long as it made sense, its fine. Robots in science fiction typically shoot lasers from their eyes and fly around with rocket boosters anyway.

What can Toad do in SSB? Hmm, he's well known for pulling out vegetables and throwing them. That's one move he could use in SSB. Also, his superhuman strength was displayed in SMB2 and WW when he could lift and carry heavy loads. Sakurai knows this and mentions this in Toad's trophy in Brawl. So, why not have Toad carry crates, barrels, and other characters with ease like Donkey Kong does in SSB? Toad already knows how to walk up on walls as shown in WW so he might wall-jump in SSB to refer that ability. It has been consistently established that Toad is very fast so why not have Toad retain his amazing speed in SSB? Toad could charge and jump really high as his recovery just like in SMB2. Toad is associated with mushrooms so it would make sense for him to incorporate mushrooms in his moveset... how about throwing Poison Mushrooms to shrink his opponents just like in the original Super Mario Kart. He could also use Golden Mushrooms to run faster and bump into other characters to make them trip and steal their held items like Lip's Stick and Fire Flower. Maybe his Final Smash might involve Spore Chimes to turn characters into immobile mushrooms just like those mushroom enemies do in Super Mario RPG.

As a matter of fact, the Duck Hunt dog might just work in SSB. The dog didn't fight at all in Duck Hunt, right? The one who's doing the shooting was you (the hunter), right? So, the dog could just point at a direction where the hunter from the fourth wall would shoot at. That's exactly what his occupation is - he's a hunting dog so it would make sense for him to have a moveset that reflects this. You want specials and Final Smash? You got it.

Lets start with down special... this is Bush. This is an important move. Remember how the dog wouldn't do his job unless he's hiding behind the grass? So, to reflect this, the dog has no specials, no smash moves, and no aerial moves if he's not in his camouflague (the bush). So, just press down special and the bush appears then the dog jumps into the camoflague. He can move around in the bush like in Looney Tunes cartoons where predators would hide in the bush and the bush would look like it has two feet tiptoeing around.

Now with his camoflague, the dog is ready to hunt down Nintendo characters. Standard special is called Duck. The dog disappears in the bush and lets a duck fly out. You can control the duck around with the control stick - this is in reference to the original Duck Hunt where the second controller controls the ducks. Let go of the button to have the hunter from the fourth wall shoot down the duck. Anyone caught in the blast will get hurt.

The side special is called Clay Pigeon. It refers to the Clay Shooting mode in Duck Hunt. The dog pulls out a white frisbee from the bush and throws it. You can control where the disc goes much like Zelda's side special. Letting go of the button will make the hunter from the fourth wall shoot the frisbee. Anyone can get hurt from the blast.

The up special is the recovery move, of course, so naturally its called Fly Away. The name refers to when the ducks flew away in the original Duck Hunt. The dog pulls out two ducks out of the bush and flies away with them. There's a downside to this move, though... the dog will leave the bush behind. Its wise to use this move when you really need to recover.

The dog's Final Smash is Open Season. The dog hides in the bush on the stage then the original Duck Hunt's pixelated 2D graphics appear in the foreground like Peach's hand-drawn pictures appear in the foreground during her Final Smash. Dozens of 2D ducks fly out of the grass and fly around at once (like in Vs. Duck Hunt) and you have 9 bullets to use. You aim the cursor around the screen to try to shoot at the characters. If you shoot a duck, the dog appears in 2D and holds a duck. If you shoot a character or miss, the dog laughs.

 

[Clownbot]

As epic as that Duck Hunt Dog moveset was (not even kidding there), he's not significant enough to be playable.

It doesn't matter if Ridley looks odd compared to another person from his series. It's not like Smash is canon or anything, so even next to Samus, it would be okay if he was resized. He's the best choice for a new rep, being the second most significant character in the series.

 

[Wisp]

Exactly, Clownbot. Whether or not there is “nothing to compare” a character to, the fact remains that size difference from the origin games is virtually scrapped when a character enters SSB. To be honest, I think size is a lame reason to reject such an important character.

My only qualm with Toad is that he's another Mario character. There are already a bunch, and I think other franchises deserve new characters before Mario does. Besides that, I don't really mind him as a newcomer. :]

I really like Duck Hunt Dog's moveset, with the exception of his side B and B being too similar. How would hitting him work while he's in the bush? Would he keep the bush and just rack up damage?

 

[sundayseclipse]

first of all olimar is regular size supposed to be of mario. distant planet is were everything is big.pikmin are bugs that are invisible to the naked eye. on distant planet EVERYTHING is bigger....rant


i 100% agree with your post pacman

wouldnt duckhunt dog stell nintendogs thunder in the game?
in percantage nintendogs is more popular,so if any dogs getting in its them.

i just wana kill duckhunt dog like i do with jiggilypuff,no stress .

 

[Clownbot]

Exactly, Clownbot. Whether or not there is “nothing to compare” a character to, the fact remains that size difference from the origin games is virtually scrapped when a character enters SSB. To be honest, I think size is a lame reason to reject such an important character.

QFT, man. QFT.

My only qualm with Toad is that he's another Mario character. There are already a bunch, and I think other franchises deserve new characters before Mario does. Besides that, I don't really mind him as a newcomer. :]

Well, obviously, every series should have its limits, but Mario IS Nintendo's biggest franchise...

 

[Arcadenik]

Ice Climbers weren't significant to Nintendo for 15 years before they got into Melee in 2001. Pit wasn't significant to Nintendo for 16 years before he was confirmed to be in Brawl in 2006. R.O.B. wasn't even significant to Nintendo for over 20 years. The beauty of retro characters is that they aren't expected to have new games today even though they were iconic Nintendo characters in their heyday. They are added because they were some of the most iconic Nintendo characters during Nintendo's early video game years. Little Mac, Takamaru (in Japan), and the Duck Hunt dog are pretty much the last of the iconic NES-era characters not yet playable in Smash. Also, lets look at this way:

Ice Climbers represents the Famicom games before the Famicom Disk System came out in Japan and before R.O.B. was used to market the NES in America. Sakurai chose the Ice Climbers over Balloon Fighter, Bubbles from Clu Clu Land, Excitebike, and Urban Champion to represent that era.

R.O.B. represents Nintendo's success in America where it helped revive the video game industry following the video game crash of 1983. R.O.B. was also bundled with the NES in America.

The Duck Hunt dog can represent the Zapper Light Gun games on the Famicom and NES. Nintendo chose Duck Hunt over Wild Gunman, Hogan's Alley, and Gumshoe to represent and market the Zapper Light Gun in America. Duck Hunt was also bundled with the NES in America.

That's why I placed Ice Climbers, R.O.B., and Hunting Dog under the Famicom group. They all represent Nintendo's video game roots along with Mr. Game & Watch.

Also, how would the Duck Hunt dog steal the Nintendog's thunder? Is it because they are all dogs? If that's the case, then that's the lamest reason I've heard against the Duck Hunt dog's inclusion. Do we need to remove Luigi because we need only one plumber? Do we need to remove Zelda because we only need one princess? Do we need to remove Captain Falcon because we need only one space bounty hunter? No, we don't and besides Sakurai already said Nintendogs wouldn't work as viable fighters in Brawl in that interview with Iwata.

Fun Fact: Sakurai didn't think the Balloon Fighter, Bubbles, Excitebike, and Urban Champion would work as viable fighters in Melee. That's why he picked the Ice Climbers.

 

[sundayseclipse]

Ice Climbers weren't significant to Nintendo for 15 years before they got into Melee in 2001. Pit wasn't significant to Nintendo for 16 years before he was confirmed to be in Brawl in 2006. R.O.B. wasn't even significant to Nintendo for over 20 years. The beauty of retro characters is that they aren't expected to have new games today even though they were iconic Nintendo characters in their heyday. They are added because they were some of the most iconic Nintendo characters during Nintendo's early video game years. Little Mac, Takamaru (in Japan), and the Duck Hunt dog are pretty much the last of the iconic NES-era characters not yet playable in Smash. Also, lets look at this way:

Ice Climbers represents the Famicom games before the Famicom Disk System came out in Japan and before R.O.B. was used to market the NES in America. Sakurai chose the Ice Climbers over Balloon Fighter, Bubbles from Clu Clu Land, Excitebike, and Urban Champion to represent that era.

R.O.B. represents Nintendo's success in America where it helped revive the video game industry following the video game crash of 1983. R.O.B. was also bundled with the NES in America.

The Duck Hunt dog can represent the Zapper Light Gun games on the Famicom and NES. Nintendo chose Duck Hunt over Wild Gunman, Hogan's Alley, and Gumshoe to represent and market the Zapper Light Gun in America. Duck Hunt was also bundled with the NES in America.

That's why I placed Ice Climbers, R.O.B., and Hunting Dog under the Famicom group. They all represent Nintendo's video game roots along with Mr. Game & Watch.

Also, how would the Duck Hunt dog steal the Nintendog's thunder? Is it because they are all dogs? If that's the case, then that's the lamest reason I've heard against the Duck Hunt dog's inclusion. Do we need to remove Luigi because we need only one plumber? Do we need to remove Zelda because we only need one princess? Do we need to remove Captain Falcon because we need only one space bounty hunter? No, we don't and besides Sakurai already said Nintendogs wouldn't work as viable fighters in Brawl in that interview with Iwata.

Fun Fact: Sakurai didn't think the Balloon Fighter, Bubbles, Excitebike, and Urban Champion would work as viable fighters in Melee. That's why he picked the Ice Climbers.

you seriously are making this forum less fun. yes we have arguments, but we share our ideas not contredict everyone and say your right. god just let ppl share their ideas. your teling us crap we already know


k back to whatever.

wata bout lolo for smash. XD

and clown why do you keep changing avatars so much lol

 

[Fatmanonice]

... wait a sec... Holy crap! You're Arcadenik from Nsider, aren't you? I was wondering why you were pushing the Duck Hunt Dog so hard. Do you remember me at all?

 

[Big-Cat]

What about me? I was Kumamon on NSider.