[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Big-Cat]

Good point. However, you should probably lean a bit more towards Dragon Quest. It's Japan we're talking about. Their fanbases can TOTALLY come first and/or only in their games.

That may be the case, but the developers know well that this series ships internationally. In this case, do you put a series in that is only incredibly popular in Japan, or a series that is incredibly popular all around the world?

This isn't the same as Fire Emblem was back then during Melee. Fire Emblem is a Nintendo franchise and it has been mentioned that working with third parties is not an easy task. With that in mind, I ask you again the same question.

 

[Pieman0920]

As I said before, Shadow Mario could have a moveset that would make him not a clone, but that doesn't change him from being a pallet swap by definition. Seriously, why not add in Blood Falcon, Dark Link, or SAX? They could all have new movesets, despite just being the generic cliche of a "dark" version of a already established character.

 

[majora_787]

That may be the case, but the developers know well that this series ships internationally. In this case, do you put a series in that is only incredibly popular in Japan, or a series that is incredibly popular all around the world?

This isn't the same as Fire Emblem was back then during Melee. Fire Emblem is a Nintendo franchise and it has been mentioned that working with third parties is not an easy task. With that in mind, I ask you again the same question.

And my answer is, if they have to pick the worldwide choice, they will probably try to pick both if they can.

I'm sorry, Bad joke. Anyway... Yeah, I have to give them some credit. But I'm sure they'll have a character that's mostly popular in Japan.

Dark Link was made out to be exactly like Link, but evil. SA-X...I dunno, did SA-X have Samus's abilities? I thought it was just a monster that took her form.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Making Shadow Mario a seperate character would be like making Mr. L a seperate character, just plain goofy. If at all possible, they should try to avoid adding characters that could just as easily be added as character ALTs/palette swaps.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

Okay, listen up! Shadow Mario is not the same person as Mario, while Luigi and Mr. L are in fact the same person. And no, making Shadow Mario playable is not like making Mr. L a separate character. That's because Shadow Mario is Bowser Jr.'s alter ego, not Mario's.

 

[Knyaguy]

Okay, listen up! Shadow Mario is not the same person as Mario, while Luigi and Mr. L are in fact the same person. And no, making Shadow Mario playable is not like making Mr. L a separate character. That's because Shadow Mario is Bowser Jr.'s alter ego, not Mario's.

Amen, ma brotha!

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

If Little Mac becomes playable in Smash 4, do any of you think he should use a boxing glove on a string as his Side Special? A glove on a string is one of Aran Ryan's moves in Title Defense Mode in Punch-Out!! Wii. That might be something for Mac to use, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ I think Mario the Jumpman got you on that pointer Fatmanonice. However, the only flaw is that Shadow Mario was created to be just like Mario and nothing more, and Mr. L was created to be just evil though Mr. L is the same character as Luigi. ☆

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

Shadow Mario was created to frame Mario.

And you're saying that SM would be a waste of a playable character position?

 

[Pieman0920]

Yeah, created to frame him by being just like him.

As for the boxing glove on a string, I doubt it. Mac's no cheater. Sure if he was in a Smash game, he'd probably use items, but that just means that the boxing glove on the string could be a item to use.

 

[majora_787]

Yeah, created to frame him by being just like him.

As for the boxing glove on a string, I doubt it. Mac's no cheater. Sure if he was in a Smash game, he'd probably use items, but that just means that the boxing glove on the string could be a item to use.

But if they put Aran Ryan in the game... Wow, he would be CHEAP. He'd either be the next Meta or the next Lucas. He'd be... The Next Mucas.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

If SSB4 had any transforming character, and I'm sure it will, it would be Bowser Jr. in Shadow Mario.

I am almost positive that Bowser Jr. be the new Mario rep of SSB4, but I'm not sure about Shadow Mario. It seems like a 50/50 possibility to me, it just depends on Sakurai. Bowser Jr.'s major game role was in Super Mario Sunshine which makes it seem likely, but Shadow Mario hasn't been seen with Bowser Jr. for a while.

The transformation method is the same as Zelda/Shiek and the Pokemon Trainer. Down B. That way, the moveset for Shadow Mario will not be as difficult as it would if you had to make four different special moves. But here's my idea for the moveset:

SHADOW MARIO

Standard B: >GRAFFITI< ~ Shadow Mario swings his brush at enemies, resulting in a bit of graffiti flying off. The longer the move is held, the more graffiti will come off. If an opponent is hit with the Graffiti, they will take damage as long as the graffiti is on them (wares off after about 4 seconds). If the attack does not hit an opponent, it will land on the ground and opponents will trip if they walk in it (lasts for 8 seconds). To keep this from being spammable, it must charge up like R.O.B.'s move.

Side (Smash) B: >BRUSH DANCE< ~ Shadow Mario hops forward as he swings his brush at opponents. If the button is continually pressed, Shadow Mario will continue to inch forward, skillfully swinging his brush. If he connects with the fourth swing, opponents will lose balance and trip due to the slippery graffiti of the brush.

Up B: >BRUSH TWIRL< ~ Twirls brush quickly around himself resulting in hovering slightly above the ground. The faster the button is pressed, the higher Shadow Mario will rise. Better for horizontal recovery. Brush causes damage if it makes contact with opponents. *NOTE: This move was actually seen in Super Mario Sunshine, but without the Brush.

Down B: >BOWSER JR. TRANSFORMATION< ~ Obviously, Shadow Mario takes the form of Bowser Jr. and pulls up his mask, transforming him back into Bowser Jr. As seen in Super Mario Sunshine.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

majora_787, when you said that Aran Ryan could be the next Lucas, could you please explain why you used Lucas in your post? Thank you!

 

[Spydr Enzo]

majora_787, when you said that Aran Ryan could be the next Lucas, could you please explain why you used Lucas in your post? Thank you!

Some consider Lucas to be over powered in Brawl. You might call him "broken". Majora is saying that Aran Ryan would be extremely over-powered, basically.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Okay, listen up! Shadow Mario is not the same person as Mario, while Luigi and Mr. L are in fact the same person. And no, making Shadow Mario playable is not like making Mr. L a separate character. That's because Shadow Mario is Bowser Jr.'s alter ego, not Mario's.

It's like the situation with Daisy, the character is a seperate character but isn't significant enough to warrant a spot so it'd make more sense to make them an ALT/palette swap for the character they most resemble. The same could be said for someone like Louie from Pikmin.

Also, why should they reference a game that will be at least ten years old by the time the next Smash Bros is released? Shadow Mario was used as an alter ego for Bowser Jr. one time in Super Mario Sunshine and hasn't been used since. (No, there's no proof that Cosmic Mario in Super Mario Galaxy is the same as Shadow Mario and it's even been said by Nintendo that they are not the same person.) Because I'm sure someone's going to mention it, it is NOT the same situation as Shiek. Although both were used in one game, Ocarina of Time was only released 3 years before Melee and it was the last appearance of adult Zelda until Twilight Princess 8 years later thus not being buried in other games to make it less relevant. Bowser Jr, on the other hand, has currently been in three other canon games (soon to be five) since without the use of Shadow Mario.

That's one of the things that annoys me about Bowser Jr discussion, how far back people have to reference in order to find anything about the character that's genuinely unique despite, like I said, the character appearing in several canon titles since. The paintbrush this... Shadow Mario that... It's almost like people are stretching things close to their tearing point in order to make Bowser Jr more relevant when, if we were to be honest with ourselves, his unique qualities have been made less and less noteworthy with each passing game. With the New Super Mario Bros Wii game coming out this winter, he's just going to be thrown in with the other 7 Koopa Kids and, based on the current counter, they will all have been in the same number of canon games.

 

[majora_787]

majora_787, when you said that Aran Ryan could be the next Lucas, could you please explain why you used Lucas in your post? Thank you!

It's a joke my friends and I have. Each character has a label in our opinion. Meta Knight is our fast cheap guy, and Lucas is our strong cheap guy. It's nothing more than all of us having lost to a button masher who spams smash attacks.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Also, why should they reference a game that will be at least ten years old by the time the next Smash Bros is released?

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Pit, the Ice Climbers, and other characters appeared in Brawl. And, aren't their games each over 20 years old, close to 30 by the time SSB4 will come out? Hmm, oh well, thats still only about 10 years more than... 10 years.

Because I'm sure someone's going to mention it, it is NOT the same situation as Shiek. Although both were used in one game, Ocarina of Time was only released 3 years before Melee and it was the last appearance of adult Zelda until Twilight Princess 8 years later thus not being buried in other games to make it less relevant. Bowser Jr, on the other hand, has currently been in three other canon games (soon to be five) since without the use of Shadow Mario.

So? Shiek still hasn't appeared in a game for about 10 years, and considering your above comment, wouldn't you wonder why Shiek would be playable if her last game was over 10 years ago? Why did they even put her in Brawl (I'm not saying Shiek should be cut, I'm just proving that you're two comments kind of contradict each other)?


And again, who cares how old they are? If they are popular Nintendo stars that played a vital role in a popular and familiar game, I think thats pretty deserving of a spot, don't you think? Super Mario Sunshine was pretty popular and very familar, considering it was THE Mario platformer of the Gamecube. Shadow Mario along with Bowser Jr. played a very important role in the game, so why shouldn't they appear together?

 

[Clownbot]

I, for one, have never played Mario Sunshine, but considering the fact that Zelda can still turn into Sheik after Melee (come to think of it, every single Smash game came out after Ocarina of Time), it's definitely possible for a Bowser Jr./Shadow Mario transformation.

EDIT: Actually, Sheik will be even older than Shadow Mario by the time a Smash 4 comes out.

 

[majora_787]

I, for one, have never played Mario Sunshine, but considering the fact that Zelda can still turn into Sheik after Melee (come to think of it, every single Smash game came out after Ocarina of Time), it's definitely possible for a Bowser Jr./Shadow Mario transformation.

EDIT: Actually, Sheik will be even older than Shadow Mario by the time a Smash 4 comes out.

Haha. Called retro for a reason, I suppose.

But yeah, looking at Sheik, I guess it is possible. But never say deffinatly, everyone said Toon Link would be too unique to be a clone. Aha...ha...well look how THAT turned out.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Pit, the Ice Climbers, and other characters appeared in Brawl. And, aren't their games each over 20 years old, close to 30 by the time SSB4 will come out? Hmm, oh well, thats still only about 10 years more than... 10 years.

*lights a cigarette and leans back in a recliner*

The two characters you mentioned were pretty much only in one game each (Pit was technically in two but his Gameboy game was a North American exclusive). As I mentioned in the last post, Bowser Jr has been in a good number of games since Super Mario Sunshine, both canon and spinoff, while Pit and the Ice Climbers pretty much did minor cameos until their primere in Melee and Brawl, respectively. Another thing you neglected to mention is that both of those characters are the stars of their respective games and that Bowser Jr is not, in fact, he's not even the main villian in any of the games he appears in.

*notices new comments*

Again, Shiek was relevant when she was added to Smash Bros. Her last appearance was only 3 years before Melee. She wasn't removed anytime between Melee and Brawl because, obviously, there wasn't a Smash game in the years between the two making that arguement moot. Bowser Jr with a Shadow Mario transformation would have been relevant in Brawl considering how there was even a Super Mario Sunshine stage but, as we all know, that was not the case and how the focus will no doubt be on the Mario Galaxy games in the next Smash Bros.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

*lights a cigarette and leans back in a recliner*

The two characters you mentioned were pretty much only in one game each (Pit was technically in two but his Gameboy game was a North American exclusive). As I mentioned in the last post, Bowser Jr has been in a good number of games since Super Mario Sunshine, both canon and spinoff, while Pit and the Ice Climbers pretty much did minor cameos until their primere in Melee and Brawl, respectively. Another thing you neglected to mention is that both of those characters are the stars of their respective games and that Bowser Jr is not, in fact, he's not even the main villian in any of the games he appears in.

Bowser Jr and Shadow Mario may not be the main villains of Super Mario Sunshine, but they appear about 20 times more than Bowser does. They are a familiar pair and in their major role in SMS, they were extremely vital to the plot. Falco isn't the star of his series. Jigglypuff isn't the star of it's series. Meta Knight isn't the star of his series. But he plays an important, occasional, mini-boss role that Bowser Jr. plays.

Again, Shiek was relevant when she was added to Smash Bros. Her last appearance was only 3 years before Melee. She wasn't removed anytime between Melee and Brawl because, obviously, there wasn't a Smash game in the years between the two making that arguement moot. Bowser Jr with a Shadow Mario transformation would have been relevant in Brawl considering how there was even a Super Mario Sunshine stage but, as we all know, that was not the case and how the focus will no doubt be on the Mario Galaxy games in the next Smash Bros.

Bowser Jr. wasn't in Brawl because Sakurai obviously wanted to limit each series to 4 maximum reps. That was why Dr. Mario was cut, and also the reasons for Pichu, Mewtwo, and Young Link being cut.

But honestly, what new Mario rep would be better than Bowser Jr.? Rosalina? Yeah right. So much for Super Mario Galaxy. The next in line for Mario are Toad and Paper Mario. And by the way, Bowser JR. is definitely in. The Shadow Mario transformation is still a 50/50 chance though in my opinion.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

So which side of our discussion currently has the better side of the arguement?

By the way, Sheik should stay in Smash 4 as a playable character. She's one of my favorite fighters.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

So which side of our discussion currently has the better side of the arguement?

By the way, Sheik should stay in Smash 4 as a playable character. She's one of my favorite fighters.

Right now, its even. I need Bowser Jr./Shadow Mario support.

And by the way, when I mentioned Shiek, I was only making a point that Fatmanonice's two comment contradicted each other. I agree she should stay.

 

[Clownbot]

I don't necessarily support a Shadow Mario transformation if Bowser Jr. gets in, I just don't think it's impossible to happen.

Also, Spydr Enzo, I'm not sure Sakurai actually tried to keep it to 4 reps max, it might have just ended up that way. I mean, Toon Link pretty much replaced Young Link, Roy was somewhat a clone, as were Pichu and Doc, and Mewtwo... well, he just might be the only other indication that 4 reps max was actually an established rule in Brawl (of course, it would mean Pokemon getting more reps than Mario, which is another thing to take into account).

 

[Fatmanonice]

Bowser Jr and Shadow Mario may not be the main villains of Super Mario Sunshine, but they appear about 20 times more than Bowser does. They are a familiar pair and in their major role in SMS, they were extremely vital to the plot. Falco isn't the star of his series. Jigglypuff isn't the star of it's series. Meta Knight isn't the star of his series. But he plays an important, occasional, mini-boss role that Bowser Jr. plays.

Appearances in a game don't really mean anything towards significance because, if that were the case, Birdo would have been the most important villain in SMB2, Boom-Boom the most important in SMB3, and Croco the most important in Super Mario RPG. For characters, you also need to compile together the significance they show altogether and not just for one title if they do, in fact, appear in more than one game as more than cameos. For Bowser Jr, his top role is definately Super Mario Sunshine but then he's a reoccuring mini boss in New Super Mario Bros and in Super Mario Galaxy you only fight him once and it's not even a true direct fight and he's sort of "just there" when it comes to the contents of the story.

For your second argument:

Falco- Playable in three of the five games and with the franchise since the beginning as a leading character.
Jigglypuff- Technically playable in all the canon games.
Metaknight- Playable in three canon games and with the franchise since the second game. He usually acts as a major character in the plot as well like in Kirby and the Amazing Mirror and Kirby Squeak Squad.

Add in: There's no proof that Sakurai ever had a "four character limit" in mind and the theory stands on shaky legs as it is considering how Zelda technically has 5 characters and Pokemon has 6.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I don't necessarily support a Shadow Mario transformation if Bowser Jr. gets in, I just don't think it's impossible to happen.

Agreed. I don't really support anything, I just look for things that seem possible. IMO, Bowser Jr. has a 95% chance of getting in (I'm pretty confident in that). But the Shadow Mario transformation seems like 50%. I can see it happening.

Also, Spydr Enzo, I'm not sure Sakurai actually tried to keep it to 4 reps max, it might have just ended up that way. I mean, Toon Link pretty much replaced Young Link, Roy was somewhat a clone, as were Pichu and Doc, and Mewtwo... well, he just might be the only other indication that 4 reps max was actually an established rule in Brawl (of course, it would mean Pokemon getting more reps than Mario, which is another thing to take into account).

You could be right, but I still see a pattern. I still believe the 4 reps maximum theory is something Sakurai actually planned to implement, and I see five reps happening in the future.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

I'm loving the chances that Bowser Jr. has of getting into Smash 4. Though the chances for Shadow Mario are a bit questionable.

And Fatmanonice, why was Jigglypuff so popular in Japan? I'm asking because you mentioned Jiggs.

 

[pacmansays]

Also, why should they reference a game that will be at least ten years old by the time the next Smash Bros is released?

I think is quite a good issue brought up: we need to think about how this will most likely be made in quite a while and so some older things might just be passed by.

I think we should be looking at characters from current series that in the future we'd love to play as.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

blah blah blah blah

None of that really affects anything. Bowser Jr. has popularity, familiarity, and vitality to the games he's in. Sure he's in only one major game, but that game happens to be extremely popular, extremely familiar, and Bowser Jr. plays the most important role in it (besides Mario, as stated before).

Bowser Jr. is the most likely new Mario rep for SSB4, and I'm pretty sure the game will allow five reps.

And the Four Maximum Characters Per Series is just a theory. I never said there was proof and I never even gave proof. I just gave good evidence.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'm loving the chances that Bowser Jr. has of getting into Smash 4. Though the chances for Shadow Mario are a bit questionable.

And Fatmanonice, why was Jigglypuff so popular in Japan? I'm asking because you mentioned Jiggs.

I agree, Bowser Jr is pretty much the front runner for a new Mario rep at the moment but I also believe that Shadow Mario is dead weight hanging onto Bowser Jr's leg. The character has lost its signifcance in time because Bowser Jr has left it further and further behind with each new appearance. If anything, referencing back to Super Mario Sunshine kind of knocks Bowser Jr back because it's like saying, hey, this character used to be unique but look how he's changed. It's kind of like pointing out how the DK games have become less successful over the years but ignoring the fact that Nintendo still cares enough to continue making them anyways and how it even has had more new installments than Zelda and Metroid since the beginning of the Gamecube generation.

Why was Jigglypuff so popular in Japan? Probably because it was actually somewhat of a major reoccuring character in the first generation's manga and used as a poster child of the franchise almost as much as Pikachu at the time, at least in Japan. Beyond that, I feel like the character has no where the amount of popularity it once had and only keeps showing up due to the fact that she was one of the original 12.

 

[Pieman0920]

I don't think anyone can deny that Bowser Jr. does have his chances (though I'd rank Paper Mario over him) but the thing here is Shadow Mario. SM doesn't really contribute anything, and isn't worth it on his own by any means. In addition, Bowser Jr. has moved on from using that alter ego anyways, and he was in two major games since Sunshine.

The point I was originally trying to make when I brought up here wasn't Bowser Jr's chances of getting in, as they are undeniably high, but rather the unlikelyhood of Shadow Mario being tagged along with him.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Bowser Jr. in my opinion, is almost definitely in. And I have stated numerous times that I'm 50/50 on Shadow Mario. I never said he was guaranteed in, I was just backing up his chances, which may not be very good, but at least he has some. I'm not a Shadow Mario fanboy or anything if it appears that way, I'm just trying to look at things realistically.

Now I'm feeling we need to move on... the Zelda series!

What does everyone think about a new rep for the Zelda series?

 

[Underload]

And now for something completely different.

What are the chances of Snake staying in the Smash Bros. series? How about Sonic's? Is there any reason to remove them?

 

[Clownbot]

Enzo:

Tingle has a new game coming out (I think), and Vaati might be the villain of Spirit Tracks (although the only indication is his prominence in handheld Zelda games, so this may not be so), so those two, at the moment, seem to be the most likely.

EDIT: It could also be a character from the new Zelda Wii, but considering Midna/Wolf Link not getting into Brawl, this, again, may not happen.

Underload:

I personally think Snake should definitely be cut (though he may not be), but Sonic will probably stay, maybe even get another rep if it doesn't interfere with any other 3rd Parties' inclusion.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Bowser Jr. in my opinion, is almost definitely in. And I have stated numerous times that I'm 50/50 on Shadow Mario. I never said he was guaranteed in, I was just backing up his chances, which may not be very good, but at least he has some. I'm not a Shadow Mario fanboy or anything if it appears that way, I'm just trying to look at things realistically.

Now I'm feeling we need to move on... the Zelda series!

What does everyone think about a new rep for the Zelda series?

As much as I'd rather hit a basket of puppies with a golf club than admit to this, it's Tingle. He has 2 games under his belt and it was recently announced that a third is on the way. He's also the only character besides Link who's been playable in a canon Zelda game.

And now for something completely different.

What are the chances of Snake staying in the Smash Bros. series? How about Sonic's? Is there any reason to remove them?

High for both if you ask me. SEGA and Nintendo are so buddy buddy right now that there would have to be an enormous falling out for Sonic not to be in the next Smash Bros and the same could be said for Mashiro Sakurai and Hideo Kojima's friendship. Also, no, there's really no reason to remove either because 1. they are both unique characters and 2. third party characters have different standards than the 1st/2nd party characters.

 

[Clownbot]

@fatmanonice: Okay, due to Sakurai and Kojima being friends, I agree that he probably won't get cut, but Snake has little importance to Nintendo, there are more worthy Konami reps (and 3rd Party reps in general), and Snake wouldn't have even gotten in if it weren't for bias.

Like you said, you can't please everybody, so at the risk of removing a unique moveset, Snake should definitely get cut. Probably won't, but should.

 

[sundayseclipse]

RAWRZ
digging the new icon clown

what characters that exist movesets need buffering

ide say link
the mother series
ganon
t link
a bit of a tweak on olimar
meta knight

 

[Spydr Enzo]

RAWRZ
digging the new icon clown

what characters that exist movesets need buffering

ide say link
the mother series
ganon
t link
a bit of a tweak on olimar
meta knight

LUIGI ~ Completely de-clone from Mario, add Vacuum (Poltergust 4000) from Luigi's Mansion to moveset.

TOON LINK ~ Completely de-clone from Link, give movesets fom Windwaker and Phantom Hourglass, give a more unique Final Smash.

GANONDORF ~ Make use of the sword to help de-clone from Captain Falcon.

META KNIGHT ~ Make moves less spammable and make some of them a bit weaker.

FALCO ~ Come up with moves to de-clone him from Fox, or at least make the two more distinguished.

LUCAS ~ Use other PSI attacks to almost or completely de-clone him from Ness, reduce power a bit.


That's all I can think of... and as you can see, I don't really like clones and I feel it is possible for every character to have a de-cloned moveset.

 

[Clownbot]

digging the new icon clown

Thanks.

Everyone in the Forum Games section feels the exact opposite about it.

Anyway...

About the moveset thing, I don't really believe in there being a tier list (yes, yes, tiers R 4 queers and all that ****), but Meta Knight and Snake (if he returns) seem to need nerfing. As far as changing moves go, all of the semi-clones should be at least slightly changed from their counterparts, as Enzo said (most of his examples seemed pretty fair).

And then for buffing...

I don't play Smash competitively, nor do I own Brawl per se (I have played it, though), and I'm too lazy to look up the tier list right now, so I can't touch up on that at the moment.

 

[sundayseclipse]

LUIGI ~ Completely de-clone from Mario, add Vacuum (Poltergust 4000) from Luigi's Mansion to moveset...

wouldnt the vacume make him more of a clone

luigi is good the way he is