[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Scott!]

Yeah, Luigi is fine. He's pretty different, to the point where we call decloned clones "Luigi-fied". That seems to suggest that they're not really clones at all anymore.

Falco is also pretty different from Fox now. All the specials are somewhat different, excep tthe Up B, which is only shorter.

Toon Link needs new specials, yes definitely.

All of the other Zelda characters need a buff. Ganon is shamefully bad, and still too Falcon-y. Link needs a better recovery at least. And Zelda needs some tweaking. Maybe make her smashes so that you can't DI out of them or something. Or make her recovery better, i.e. give her momentum afterwards. Also, preload Sheik.

Snake should stay. He's interesting, and very unique. But his hitboxes should not have invisible parts. Essentially, make his range end with his hands and feet, not 3 feet later. Konami may have other options, but Snake, while not very Nintendo, is one of their best characters.

 

[Fatmanonice]

RAWRZ
digging the new icon clown

what characters that exist movesets need buffering

ide say link
the mother series
ganon
t link
a bit of a tweak on olimar
meta knight

Link- As of right now, his biggest problem is definately his recovery which is why he's currently considered the second worst in the game. As far as I'm concerned, that's the only major thing that needs to be fixed with Link.

Ness- Again, his recovery ought to be improved and be less punishable.

Lucas- He has multiple recovery options (wave bouncing, the rope snake, etc) so that's not the main issue with him. Lucas's only major problem is not having safer kills. At the very least, his usmash and dsmash should be faster.

Ganondorf- Faster attacks in general and a slightly better recovery. More original attacks would be gravy but I don't know how likely that would be.

Toon Link- Right now, he's fine as he is but I wish there was more that set him apart from Link moveset wise like making his up B attack the hurricane spin or making his grab the grappling hook.

Olimar- His attacks should have slightly less priority and be less spammable (especially his smash attacks). Also, the pikmin pluck should be slower and it should take longer to get new pikmin after they die. Other than that, you can see that the developers at least tried to some balancing with him by giving him a crappy recovery.

Metaknight- He wouldn't be so gay if he didn't have 5 reasonable methods of recovery, an attack that can cancel out like 90% of the other moves in the game (the tornado), and an extreme lack of ending and landing lag on nearly all his attacks. Make some of his recovery methods more easy to punish, reduce the retardedly high amount of priority that the tornado has, and add more lag to some of his attacks and he'd definately be more managable.

Snake- The thing they definately need to change is his OMGWTFBBQ hitboxes and how he can kill with nearly all of his attacks. For example, it's definately obvious that the developers weren't thinking when it comes to his ftilt. The first hit stuns if the opponent is on the ground, the attack has a hit box that goes beyond Snake's actual fist, it does 20% damage when fresh, t has more knockback than probably 3/4's of the cast's smash attack, and, for an attack of its strength, it's very quick and has a relatively low amount of ending lag. His grenades and C4 need to be made a little weaker as well and he shouldn't be able to gain back his recovery if he's hit out of it. He can keep the super armor frames if they want to but his recovery should be made easier to counter.

Falco- His moveset is fine if you consider that him and Fox learned how to fight in the same military academy. The only things they need to fix with Falco is how retardedly good his dthrow chain grab is, reduce the priority of his jab, and give his lazers a little less stun. Beyond that, he's fine the way he is.

That's all I can think of for now.

 

[pacmansays]

Toon Link needs new specials, yes definitely.
.

Hmm, I like most of his but I think they should replace his bombs and bow and one of his projectiles with something else. And of course change his final smash.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

Let's pretend that Ganondorf wants Sakurai to declone him. Now we begin:

Ganondorf: Sakurai! Declone me or face my wrath.

Sakurai: I don't wanna...

Ganondorf: That's it! You've been warned...

What will happen next? Wait until Smash 4 is released. But I want the King of Evil decloned.

 

[Pieman0920]

Odds are Ganondorf will just have his moveset changed about as much as it was from Melee to Smash 4. He still be kind of the same character he was last game, but with more seperation from CF. As far as the sword goes though, that's not all to needed. We already have Ike as the heavy hitting swordsman, and there's no real need for another. What I'd think would be better for Ganondorf to specialize in is magic, and I'd think it'd be especially cool if they gave him that bouncing energy ball attack that he often has.

 

[Heartz♥]

Let's pretend that Ganondorf wants Sakurai to declone him. Now we begin:

Ganondorf: Sakurai! Declone me or face my wrath.

Sakurai: I don't wanna...

Ganondorf: That's it! You've been warned...

What will happen next? Wait until Smash 4 is released. But I want the King of Evil decloned.

Haha. Ganondorf is soft.

I do believe if he is decloned, he will be made a bit weaker. Considering that Falcon is pretty strong, and there will be no clone for him to even worry about strength comparisons.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

I never meant for Ganondorf to be "soft."

And I guess you already explained why the King of Evil would be weaker if he were to be decloned, am I right?

 

[Heartz♥]

I never meant for Ganondorf to be "soft."

And I guess you already explained why the King of Evil would be weaker if he were to be decloned, am I right?

I think you've misinterpreted my post. Ganondorf doesn't give warnings. He kills on the spot. Am I right? And I was only hypothetically stating why he would be weaker if decloned. >___>

 

[SmashChu]

And now for something completely different.

What are the chances of Snake staying in the Smash Bros. series? How about Sonic's? Is there any reason to remove them?

No one else will say this, but not very good I think.

Remember these are guest characters, and guest have a tendency to over stay their welcome. Like many other fighting games with guest characters, I suspect they won't appear in the next Smash Brothers. This may very well be a one time thing.

However, Sakurai has been good about trying to keep every character, so he may keep these characters if people want them. Sonic's chances of staying are better then Snakes though.

 

[Big-Cat]

No one else will say this, but not very good I think.

Remember these are guest characters, and guest have a tendency to over stay their welcome. Like many other fighting games with guest characters, I suspect they won't appear in the next Smash Brothers. This may very well be a one time thing.

However, Sakurai has been good about trying to keep every character, so he may keep these characters if people want them. Sonic's chances of staying are better then Snakes though.

I think "guest" was probably poor word choice on Nintendo's part. I see them as guests in the sense that they are non-Nintendo characters. Also, remember that Snake and Sonic were both advertised as being playable in Brawl. Unless they want as much backlash they got for removing Mewtwo but raise that to the 100th power, I don't see them leaving. If they leave for any reason, it's because of copyright issues.

 

[SmashChu]

I think "guest" was probably poor word choice on Nintendo's part. I see them as guests in the sense that they are non-Nintendo characters. Also, remember that Snake and Sonic were both advertised as being playable in Brawl. Unless they want as much backlash they got for removing Mewtwo but raise that to the 100th power, I don't see them leaving. If they leave for any reason, it's because of copyright issues.

But guest is what they are. This wasn't from Nintendo's mouth. It was from Sakurai's.

But this would not have been the first time a character who is otherwise not meant to be in the game is removed. Like from Soul Caliber for instance. Guest describes the character perfectly because it is very well known that this is a Nintendo fighting game and these characters are only along for the ride.

Truthfully, Snake doesn't seem to be loved. He just kind of there. The only people who I see get really excited over him are Metal gear fans. Everyone else either ignores him or says he shouldn't be in there. If Snake was removed, no one would care. Sonic on the other hand.......

 

[Clownbot]

Really, I don't think that if Snake was cut he would cause as much as an uproar of Mewtwo's exclusion. Call me biased (I don't think Snake deserved to be in at all), but I just don't imagine as many people caring that Snake, maybe even Sonic, gets cut.

 

[SmashChu]

Really, I don't think that if Snake was cut he would cause as much as an uproar of Mewtwo's exclusion. Call me biased (I don't think Snake deserved to be in at all), but I just don't imagine as many people caring that Snake, maybe even Sonic, gets cut.

I've seen a lot more love for Sonic. While this isn't real evidence, I did see at a local tournament (the rules were not tournament standard I should say) a lot of kids were playing with Sonic. Sonic was added for the sole purpose that everyone wanted to see him. he was the most popular character. I don't think Snake ever received any love besides the fact he opened the door for Sonic to get in.

 

[Big-Cat]

But guest is what they are. This wasn't from Nintendo's mouth. It was from Sakurai's.

But this would not have been the first time a character who is otherwise not meant to be in the game is removed. Like from Soul Caliber for instance. Guest describes the character perfectly because it is very well known that this is a Nintendo fighting game and these characters are only along for the ride.

Truthfully, Snake doesn't seem to be loved. He just kind of there. The only people who I see get really excited over him are Metal gear fans. Everyone else either ignores him or says he shouldn't be in there. If Snake was removed, no one would care. Sonic on the other hand.......

I need proof that Sakurai indeed referred to them as guest characters. By this, I mean the original Japanese postings, not the translations used on the English website.

With the Soul series, you have to remember that there is a storyline so all the guest characters returning may make things complicated.

Anyway, I wouldn't say that Snake isn't loved. After all, he is the star of many machinima, and the MADs I've seen him in seem to gladly welcome him. I think another thing that may keep him in may be the same thing that might have saved Falco in Melee: Tier Status. I know Sakurai is anti-pro play, but the tiers also define who is being played the most. With Snake being one of the most played, I think he will return.

 

[DekuBoy]

Snake didn't deserve a spot whatsoever. Good games and all but his first two sucked and all except the MGS1 remake came out on other consoles. Being a diehard Nintendo fan this gives me very little reason to beleive he should be there.

 

[Pieman0920]

Snake would certainly cause a uproar if he were to be removed, and said uproar would certainly be larger than the one for Mewtwo. Lots of people play as Snake (as evidence from his tier rank) but barely anyone played as Mewtwo (aka one of the worst characters in Melee) On top of that, Snake has more fans than Mewtwo by the very principle of their status in their respective series in cunjuction with the sizes of said fanbases. (While Pokemon's may be larger than MGS's, the fact still remains that not all Pokemon fans are fans of Mewtwo, while most MGS fans have to be a fan of Snake by default)

Still while there is a chance of him not being included, the technical reason why he was included in Brawl in the first place seems indicate that he could easily get in next time, as its a matter of friendshp, rather than marketing deals.

 

[DekuBoy]

Argghh. Friends. Despicable.

Snake just doesn't fit in with the cast. His games are about terrorism and crap. A far cry from Pikmin.

 

[Clownbot]

DekuBoy, I don't think that's why most people who want Snake to get cut want him to.

The real reason is that there are more deserving 3rd Parties.

 

[Pieman0920]

Pokemon s about terrorism to a extent.

Really, what his games are about isn't a factor in the slightest. F-Zero is a far cry from Pikmin....heck, Pikmin is a far cry from a fighting game. And really, while Snake might not technically be the most deserving, that doesn't mean he should get cut now for it. Plus, the only character who really outshines him as far as that goes, and has yet to get in MM.

 

[Clownbot]

It depends on your standpoint. There are dozens of 3rd Party characters that have closer ties with Nintendo, and the only reason Snake got in is because of bias.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Personally, I don't mind if either of the two get cut. Sure many people will be disappointed, especially about Sonic, because he happens to be a very popular character, and popularity is the whole reason he is in the game. But like someone said, if he is cut it won't be as bad as Mewtwo being cut. I don't think you'll see many angry people if Snake gets cut.

Right now, there is really no way to tell. It is unclear what Sakurai REALLY thinks, but we know he called them guests (English or not, he called them guests. Deal with it.). That could imply that he intends this to be a one time thing, but then again he never expected to make a fourth game, he said he would "consider" it. But i they are cut, I'm sure you can expect at least two more third party characters, one of them most likely being Mega Man.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Yeah, didn't he want MegaMan in this game, anyway? It's that he was too lazy to contact them, and same thing for the developer of megaman (forgot the name, sorry.) :_:

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Yeah, didn't he want MegaMan in this game, anyway? It's that he was too lazy to contact them, and same thing for the developer of megaman (forgot the name, sorry.) :_:

Sakurai apparently didn't really care about Megaman too much. The developer of Megaman (I forget his name too) thought it would be neat if Megaman starred in the game, but Sakurai never asked him, which was what he was anticipating.

The thing I don't get is that Kojima (Snake's developer) asked for Snake to be in and Sakurai allowed it, so why didn't Megaman's developer just ask? It might be because Kojima and Sakurai know each other better, but I still think its pretty stupid.

 

[Clownbot]

His name is Kenji Inafune, I believe.

Mega Man is definitely the front-runner for new 3rd Parties, but hypothetically, if another 3rd Party were to get in, who would you prefer?

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I personally can't see any other Third Party characters in the game besides Sonic, Snake, and Megaman. Each series should only get one rep in my opinion, so no Knuckles. I'll refer to Majora's EPIC ROSTER...

EDIT: I would say Bomberman, Simon Belmont, a Resident Evil rep, or a Final Fantasy rep, but still, none of those seem likely. I've listed them below in order of highest possibility to lowest possibility, in my opinion.

~ Bomberman is somewhat popular and seems like a character fit for Smash. I can see it happening but the chances do seem a bit low.
~ Simon Belmont is pretty popular too, but his games are pretty old and I can't picture him in a Smash game. Chances aren't too good.
~ Final Fantasy games are also very popular, but I don't think they deserve too much recognition in Super Smash Bros. Maybe as trophies, or stickers, but other than that their chances seem pretty low.
~ Resident Evil games are very popular and are supported by the Gamecube and the Wii, but it seems more "WTF?", kind of like Snake was.

 

[Clownbot]

I'm upset that Ryu Hayabusa and Banjo-Kazooie aren't on your list, Enzo.

In any event, I think Simon Belmont is pretty likely if Snake gets cut, at least for a new Konami rep. Bomberman's chances are... okay, but I wouldn't call him the next most likely behind Mega Man.

Also, I think I've said this before, saying something along the lines of "this character wouldn't fit into Smash" is not a valid argument.

I apologize if this post seemed a bit out-of-line, as I WAS the one to ask who you thought was the next most likely... Still.

 

[sundayseclipse]

Link- As of right now, his biggest problem is definately his recovery which is why he's currently considered the second worst in the game. As far as I'm concerned, that's the only major thing that needs to be fixed with Link.

Ness- Again, his recovery ought to be improved and be less punishable.

Lucas- He has multiple recovery options (wave bouncing, the rope snake, etc) so that's not the main issue with him. Lucas's only major problem is not having safer kills. At the very least, his usmash and dsmash should be faster.

Ganondorf- Faster attacks in general and a slightly better recovery. More original attacks would be gravy but I don't know how likely that would be.

Toon Link- Right now, he's fine as he is but I wish there was more that set him apart from Link moveset wise like making his up B attack the hurricane spin or making his grab the grappling hook.

Olimar- His attacks should have slightly less priority and be less spammable (especially his smash attacks). Also, the pikmin pluck should be slower and it should take longer to get new pikmin after they die. Other than that, you can see that the developers at least tried to some balancing with him by giving him a crappy recovery.

Metaknight- He wouldn't be so gay if he didn't have 5 reasonable methods of recovery, an attack that can cancel out like 90% of the other moves in the game (the tornado), and an extreme lack of ending and landing lag on nearly all his attacks. Make some of his recovery methods more easy to punish, reduce the retardedly high amount of priority that the tornado has, and add more lag to some of his attacks and he'd definately be more managable.

Snake- The thing they definately need to change is his OMGWTFBBQ hitboxes and how he can kill with nearly all of his attacks. For example, it's definately obvious that the developers weren't thinking when it comes to his ftilt. The first hit stuns if the opponent is on the ground, the attack has a hit box that goes beyond Snake's actual fist, it does 20% damage when fresh, t has more knockback than probably 3/4's of the cast's smash attack, and, for an attack of its strength, it's very quick and has a relatively low amount of ending lag. His grenades and C4 need to be made a little weaker as well and he shouldn't be able to gain back his recovery if he's hit out of it. He can keep the super armor frames if they want to but his recovery should be made easier to counter.

Falco- His moveset is fine if you consider that him and Fox learned how to fight in the same military academy. The only things they need to fix with Falco is how retardedly good his dthrow chain grab is, reduce the priority of his jab, and give his lazers a little less stun. Beyond that, he's fine the way he is.

That's all I can think of for now.

eh cant argue with you there
olimar is good the way he is i just want his down b to have an affect like fire ice or stun

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I think I've said this before, saying something along the lines of "this character wouldn't fit into Smash" is not a valid argument.

That's why I said "in my opinion" before writing the list.

I'm upset that Ryu Hayabusa and Banjo-Kazooie aren't on your list, Enzo.

I have NO CLUE who Ryu Hayabusa is, but I've heard him mentioned a lot. I guess he seems popular but I'm going to say no to him (remember, MY OPINION).

And Banjo-Kazooie aren't Third Party, they're second party to Nintendo's business rival... soooo....

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Sorry, double post...

 

[Tacel]

Do you think that they would change characters Final Smashes in Smash 4, or would that upset smashers?

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Do you think that they would change characters Final Smashes in Smash 4, or would that upset smashers?

I'm sure they'll change a few of them... but maybe only two or three. Maybe anew game will come out for a certain character where they have an ability that better suits a Final Smash, but you never know...

 

[Fatmanonice]

That's why I said "in my opinion" before writing the list.

I have NO CLUE who Ryu Hayabusa is, but I've heard him mentioned a lot. I guess he seems popular but I'm going to say no to him (remember, MY OPINION).

Ryu Hayabusa is the star of the Ninja Gaiden games. If you ask me, he'd be even more out of place than Snake thanks to the series over-the-top violent nature.

 

[Clownbot]

Well, he DOES have closer ties with Nintendo...

Enzo, you might be thinking of Ryu from Street Fighter. Aside from myself, Ninja Gaiden has only been brought up by one or two people.

 

[majora_787]

Thanks for the reference, of course. :D

But yeah, I'd say Bomberman, Final Fantasy, or Resident Evil after megaman. I'd LOVE to see Resident Evil, personally. =P

 

[G&W X]

I just really would wish for Geno in SSB4.......

 

[Pieman0920]

I don't think that a RE character would really make the cut, due to it being Capcom. Thus, there would already be the pressing demand for MM, and if there was a second Capcom rep, which is very unlikely, it'd be better suited for someone like Ryu.

Also Geno's not getting in, tbqh. Unless some type of legal agreement flings him back over to Nintendo, and he actually gets major roles in a few new games, all before SSB4, then there's really no chance for him.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I personally don't think a Ninja Gaiden rep or a Resident Evil rep will make it into the game. Ninja Gaiden, like someone stated earlier, is pretty violent, and although Snake's games were pretty violent too, the Developer of his games has closer ties with Sakurai. Ninja Gaiden has pretty low chances.

Resident Evil also happens to be a bit violent.. and as Pieman pointed out, the games were developed by Capcom, which also developed Megaman games. Megaman, obviously, deserves way more of a chance than Resident Evil.

 

[Clownbot]

If Snake can get in, it's not impossible for NG to get represented. Besides, Team Ninja is collaborating with Nintendo on Metroid: Other M.

Also, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure all of the NG games which were released on Nintendo platforms got below an M rating.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm fed up with the word "representative" and other derivatives. This isn't Congress people.

 

[SmashChu]

I'm fed up with the word "representative" and other derivatives. This isn't Congress people.

Thank you. I'm glad I wasn't the only one.