[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Fatmanonice]

Was that really Miyamoto


Stories? Do tell.

Yes, that was Miyamoto. In a recent video, Mega64 was able to get Hideo Kojima to make a guest appearance too. Regarding my story, I'll tell it when I'm not so freakin' tired.

 

[n88]

@ScoobyCafe

You said that an air tech would be performed by pressing both shield buttons in the air, which means that you have to be using a GameCuber controller, which is inconvenient for those who don't.

Also, the problem with meters like this is keeping the game balanced. You said that the player's FS gauge will fill up as they take damage. I have seen this system in other games, and I hate it. P1 beats the crap out of P2. As a reward for their skill, they get their *** kicked by a final smash. Doesn't seem fair.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

You said that an air tech would be performed by pressing both shield buttons in the air, which means that you have to be using a GameCuber controller, which is inconvenient for those who don't.

True, I haven't really thought about the other control schemes. I thought up the idea relatively quickly, so yeah, I did overlook some things.

Also, the problem with meters like this is keeping the game balanced. You said that the player's FS gauge will fill up as they take damage. I have seen this system in other games, and I hate it. P1 beats the crap out of P2. As a reward for their skill, they get their *** kicked by a final smash. Doesn't seem fair.

My reply to Pieman0920 kinda covers this, but yeah, I suppose there should be a better way of filling the smash gauge. But enough about the meter, I can now see what needs to be fixed in order to make the idea of a meter a bit better. Thanks for the criticism. =]

Anyway, I didn't get the chance to ask yesterday, but I'd like to know what you guys think about Takamaru and his chances of appearing in SSB4. You probably can't tell from my avatar, but I'm one of Takamaru's biggest endorsers. I really, really enjoyed Nazo no Murasamejō.

Admittedly, I mainly want him to appear in SSB4 in order to rekindle Nazo no Murasamejō, much like how I hear Pit is getting a new game because of his appearance in Brawl. A minimalist Nazo no Murasamejō in the same vein as Shadow of the Colossus―goodness, the things I'd do for that.

 

[Pieman0920]

Takamaru's chances are like that of a standard retro character, though I'd say a bit lower given the fact that his game is Japan only. He'd be interesting, and a katana style hasn't been used yet, but I still wouldn't bet on him.

And technically, if you're good at teching and what not, then you shouldn't die easily and thus, you'd get both benefits, so even if it does take a large amount of damage to get the FS, if you have the skill to last long enough by using more advanced techniques, you get rewarded in other ways, which is a problem if you want people to go on the offensive. The whole thing just seems counter productive, unless you want people to be more defensive.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Like with Geno, it's hard to say right at the moment but the main thing that may support them is the "backlist" theory. The theory is that because a vast majority of the new characters added in Brawl were characters that were left out of Melee and did fairly well in the Melee poll (ie; Metaknight, Wario, King Dedede, Wolf, Pokemon Trainer, Sonic, Diddy, and Pit) or were noted by Sakurai for being self on the cutting room floor (Snake and Lucas), then most of the characters in the next game will be chosen by the same process. The theory also suggests that based on patterns in the past, a pokemon representing the most recent generation of Pokemon and the most recent Fire Emblem game at the time of when development for the game begins (which suggests why Pichu, Lucario, Roy, and Ike got into their respective Smash games).

Anyways, the most noted characters in the Brawl poll by Sakurai and his staff via "Sakurai's Journal" (290 entries into the Brawl poll that Sakurai and his staff put aside as the most interesting) were:

Geno (5 entries)
King Dedede (5 entries)
Ridley (4 entries)
Diddy Kong (4 entries)
Ike (4 entries)
Krystal (3 entries)
"cat eye Link" AKA Toon Link (3 entries)
Captain Olimar (3 entries)
Takamaru (3 entries)

These were all the characters mentioned more than twice. Now, my memories a little foggy but, as I have listed below, I think these were all the characters that were mentioned twice,

Animal Crossing Boy
King K. Rool
Sigurd (Fire Emblem)
Megaman
Lip
Demille/Demiru (Tomato Adventure)
Lucas
Claus/Masked Man
Jeff (Earthbound)
Diddy and Dixie Kong as a team (probably won't happen now but it's just something now)
Professor Kawashima (Brain Age in the Japanese and European versions)
Black Shadow (F-Zero)
Golden Sun lead character (Isaac was mentioned once and Felix was mentioned once)

It should be kept in mind that, aside from Sonic, Brawl's roster was decided in three days after E3 05 (ie; three days after Iwata pitched the idea at Sakurai) so this supports the idea that the roster is one of the first things that's decided and that Sakurai looks to the past for most of his ideas.

Regarding Takamaru, he definately has enough unique qualities and I too would like to see him make a comeback.

 

[n88]

Geno came up that much? Ugh. I see that you support him, but I really don't like that so many people constantly obsess over his non-inclusion. I wouldn't mind his inclusion if he was counted as a Square Rep, but no way does he deserve an appearance over other Mario characters.

I think when you said "Pichu, Lucario, Roy and Lucario" one Lucario was probably intended to be Mewtwo.

What do people think about Bowser Jr.'s chances now that the Koopalings have been revealed as the bosses of NSMB Wii?

 

[Big-Cat]

@ScoobyCafe and everyone else: The "Smash meter" idea is very dry, uncreative, and does nothing to set the game apart. Smash was good because it didn't follow the conventions of other fighting games. So how do you make it better. Why, go in reverse and do what the series has so far avoiding (and for good reason).

I know well that Smash is not like any other fighting game out there, but that doesn't mean it can't take established conventions and do in its own way. At the same time, the series doesn't need to be so radically different from other series just for the sake of being different.

Yes, that will work. The idea of a item given a final smash fits better in the context of Smash Bros as all it is is another powerful item (a staple of Smash). It also successfully changes the dynamic of the game as now the focus of the fight changes to the ball to get the attack (or prevent someone else from getting it).

I find the shift to be unnecessary and the items to be a bonus for fun. Otherwise, people would still be fighting over Pokeballs more so than in Melee.

It works a lot better then a meter. Meter=static as you'll get it anyway and the course of the game continues unchanged. Ball=Dynamic as the game changes drastically because of a glowing ball that has multiple layers of reasons for getting. Dynamic will always be more in in games, making it a better choice.

I think ScoobyCafe's idea for the system works pretty well aside from air teching costing you a part of the meter and it can easily change the momentum of the match in the long term.

I've mentioned Street Fighter 4 a lot as a reference and don't expect me to stop any time soon. Here's an example of what I mean.

In the game, I play as El Fuerte who's Ultra (a type of super move coming from damaged received) involves him jumping on top of my opponent. If my opponent is smart, he/she will use only long range and fast close range moves. If he/she tries to do a move with a lot of lag or jump towards me, I immediately take advantage of the lag and finish him/her off.

Here, the momentum changed to my opponent having to be on the defensive or risk getting killed. Likewise, the same can apply to Smash. If you had the Smash ball used instead, there isn't always that shift. The only shift that appears every time is fighting over an item, not the opponent. I believe that the focus of the game should never be changed to an item. The only shifts should be in strategy. Therefore, the changes in gameplay are subtly dynamic.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Geno came up that much? Ugh. I see that you support him, but I really don't like that so many people constantly obsess over his non-inclusion. I wouldn't mind his inclusion if he was counted as a Square Rep, but no way does he deserve an appearance over other Mario characters.

I think when you said "Pichu, Lucario, Roy and Lucario" one Lucario was probably intended to be Mewtwo.

What do people think about Bowser Jr.'s chances now that the Koopalings have been revealed as the bosses of NSMB Wii?

If the page still exists, here's proof of the 5 entries. I have them saved on my laptop too in both English and Japanese but they take up a lot of space.

Oh and one of those Lucarios was supposed to be Ike.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Takamaru's chances are like that of a standard retro character, though I'd say a bit lower given the fact that his game is Japan only. He'd be interesting, and a katana style hasn't been used yet, but I still wouldn't bet on him.

He's practically the only classic nintendo character not yet in Smash Bros., right? I mean, there are a few others, but Sakurai hasn't shown as much interest in those characters as he does Takamaru. Maybe his chances are a bit more favorable now than they were back then?

Regarding Takamaru, he definately has enough unique qualities and I too would like to see him make a comeback.

Nice. =]

It's refreshing to see that you guys aren't like the morons who oppose his entry simply because he uses a sword. I've always imagined him sheathing his sword a majority of the time, only unsheathing it to f-tilt or f-smash. At any rate, he'd fight both with his sheathe and sword.

Geno came up that much? Ugh. I see that you support him, but I really don't like that so many people constantly obsess over his non-inclusion.

What don't you like about it? I think it's a beautiful thing, in my opinion. I also support Geno, and seeing many others advocate for him is really something else. Truth be told, I'd be somewhat shocked if he doesn't appear in SSB4.

I wouldn't mind his inclusion if he was counted as a Square Rep, but no way does he deserve an appearance over other Mario characters.

Geno technically is a Mario character, though.

I'd like to see him as a secondary rep for the RPG-half of the Mario series (I consider Mario to cover all fronts of the Mario series, so Geno would be like Luigi in terms of being "second"). If Square got a rep, I would think it'd probably be Black Mage or someone from the earlier FF games.

What do people think about Bowser Jr.'s chances now that the Koopalings have been revealed as the bosses of NSMB Wii?

I've noticed in other forums that there's this weird hate for Bowser Jr. I'm not sure what it's all about, but I would really like to see him in SSB4. I'd probably main him if he plays the way I think he'd play.

 

[Pieman0920]

He's practically the only classic nintendo character not yet in Smash Bros., right? I mean, there are a few others, but Sakurai hasn't shown as much interest in those characters as he does Takamaru. Maybe his chances are a bit more favorable now than they were back then?

When has Sakurai shown any interest in him? Iin that one thing he wrote about why included the Ice Climbers, he noted several other retro characters that he considered, but he never mentioned Takamaru.


Rgarding Geno, while he is one of my favorite characters, I think he has virtually no chance. While people here may be under the illusion that he is popular. in recent SE-Nintendo team up games, he hasn't shown up, even though refferences to SMRPG have. If he truly were as popular as people think he is, he would have at the very least made a cameo in these games, but as the case is, he didn't.

Another problem is his status both legally, as well as in the Mario universe. Obviously the fact that he's a third party character doesn't help him, but what is worse for him, is that there are better SE characters to represent as well as Mario. The fact that he has had a major role in one game that came out ten years ago also is a real kick in the pants for him, as well as the fact that said game has three characters playable already. Like I said for Toad, the fact that he's third party, only really had one game, wasn't the main character of said game, and that there are more deserving characters on two fronts, don't discount him each on their own, but when combined, pretty much sink in the fact that he's not showing up.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Unfortantely people really don't know all that much about Takamaru. Yes, he is a swordsman but he also has a decent number of Ninjutsu skills and it's suggested in Captain Rainbow that he's had a decent amount of martial arts training too. With that being said, there's plenty to work with. It should also be kept in mind that Takamaru fights with a katana rather than a broad sword so that in itself lends to him fighting with a different style.

@ pieman:

You know, I've known you for practically two years now and I've always wondered this... I know it's from the Simpsons but what exactly is in your sig? I swear, I usually have to restrain myself from laughing everytime I see it.

 

[Pieman0920]

Its Blacula and Black Dracula busting up a Hocky Ri...I mean Honky Rink.

 

[Big-Cat]

These were all the characters mentioned more than twice. Now, my memories a little foggy but, as I have listed below, I think these were all the characters that were mentioned twice,

Animal Crossing Boy
King K. Rool
Sigurd (Fire Emblem)
Megaman
Lip
Demille/Demiru (Tomato Adventure)
Lucas
Claus/Masked Man
Jeff (Earthbound)
Diddy and Dixie Kong as a team (probably won't happen now but it's just something now)
Professor Kawashima (Brain Age in the Japanese and European versions)
Black Shadow (F-Zero)
Golden Sun lead character (Isaac was mentioned once and Felix was mentioned once)

I can't say for certain but I think Tom Nook was mentioned twice, if not once on the journal as well.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I can't say for certain but I think Tom Nook was mentioned twice, if not once on the journal as well.

Again, I don't fully remember. Maybe it was both the Animal Crossing Boy and Tom Nook. The only ones I have for certain down by memory are the ones who were mentioned 3 times or more. I wish I had taken the time to translate all 290 entries but, in retrospect, just doing the 5 for Geno was an enormous pain. It would have been a great resource if I had...

You know, my 5 most wanted characters for Brawl were Geno, Megaman, Ridley, Krystal, and King Dedede and I was also the most vocal about them too. I think this time around I'm going to try to push more obscure characters. Like I said, I still think it's too early for me to begin another "Geno campaign" but I think Takamaru and Muddy Mole will get a lot more of my attention this time around. The others really don't need anyone else supporting them: Megaman's pretty guarenteed if another third party character is added, Krystal's next in line not only for Star Fox but also female characters, and Ridley's currently the character who has the highest demand. Hmm...what should I say about Muddy though... *goes off to play some more Mole Mania* Anyone else have any thoughts of who the people they are going to support the most this time around are?

 

[ScoobyCafe]

When has Sakurai shown any interest in him? Iin that one thing he wrote about why included the Ice Climbers, he noted several other retro characters that he considered, but he never mentioned Takamaru.

Sorry, I guess I misinterpreted what Fatmanonice posted before (concerning the journal entries).

Rgarding Geno, while he is one of my favorite characters, I think he has virtually no chance.

I think saying he has "virtually" no chance is pretty... I dunno, fallacious.

While people here may be under the illusion that he is popular. in recent SE-Nintendo team up games, he hasn't shown up, even though refferences to SMRPG have. If he truly were as popular as people think he is, he would have at the very least made a cameo in these games, but as the case is, he didn't.

Not appearing in a recent game doesn't mean you can't be popular. That said, I'm not sure why he hasn't appeared in any recent title, but that certainly doesn't dictate how popular he is.

Another problem is his status both legally, as well as in the Mario universe. Obviously the fact that he's a third party character doesn't help him, but what is worse for him, is that there are better SE characters to represent as well as Mario.

I really don't like the "X is better than Y" arguments. There's no proof for claims like those, it's all subjective. I can easily say that Geno is the best suited character for SSB4, but that doesn't make it true.

The fact that he has had a major role in one game that came out ten years ago also is a real kick in the pants for him

I didn't think the "one game" arguments still held any water. I can list a few existing characters in Smash Bros. who had one game.

as well as the fact that said game has three characters playable already.

In SMRPG, besides the Mario characters, Geno is probably the most well received character in the game.

wasn't the main character of said game,

Luigi wasn't a main character of any game until Luigi's Mansion was released, yet he appeared as a playable character in SSB.

and that there are more deserving characters on two fronts, don't discount him each on their own, but when combined, pretty much sink in the fact that he's not showing up.

You can think so if you want, but that doesn't make it true. I personally believe that given his popular status, he has a real shot at making it in SSB4.

Unfortantely people really don't know all that much about Takamaru. Yes, he is a swordsman but he also has a decent number of Ninjutsu skills and it's suggested in Captain Rainbow that he's had a decent amount of martial arts training too. With that being said, there's plenty to work with. It should also be kept in mind that Takamaru fights with a katana rather than a broad sword so that in itself lends to him fighting with a different style.

Just conjured up a quick special moveset for him. I probably shouldn't post it in here, but just to give you an idea of what I think he'd play like, check it out:

-Neutral B: Shuriken:
Takamaru flings a shuriken towards his opponent. Holding B allows Takamaru to gather three shurikens, tossing them at three different trajectories. Shuriken will sometimes catch aflame, traveling faster and dealing slightly more damage

-Forward B: Graze:
Takamaru becomes transparent as he swiftly dashes forward. Projectile-based attacks will pass through Takamaru. If a projectile makes contact with Takamaru while initiating this, the said projectile will be nullified. (Also Takamaru's 3rd jump)

-Down B: Parry
An alternative to blocking. This maneuver recquires precise timing and involves putting Takamaru in risk of an attack. Takamaru grips his sheathe and enters a quick pose. Any attack which makes contact with Takamaru in this state will be parried and frozen for a certain number of frames. In those frames, Takamaru can either throw the opponent, hit him, or retreat. (Know when Ganondorf gets his FS and roars? Note when the players freeze in place. This special is somewhat like that)

-Up B: Zen Meditation
Takamaru enters a seated position. A beam of light from above will shine down on him, gradually getting brighter the longer up B is held. The light will stop shining at a certain point. The damage Takamaru's normal attacks deal regularly will be enhanced for roughly 15 seconds.

-Special Ability: Air Dash
A skill utilized by Takamaru. Upon jumping, if the player taps the control stick in a dash-like motion, Takamaru will dash through the air. Since Takamaru doesn't have a recovery special, this is his primary recovery maneuver.

It pretty much stays true to what Takamaru is capable of in Nazo no Murasamejō. (The Zen idea comes from Captain Rainbow, though)

Anyone else have any thoughts of who the people they are going to support the most this time around are?

Lip
Ray
Saki
Andy
Stafy
Lil Mac
Sukapon
Baby Bros. (Yoshi rep)

I'm really surprised Lip isn't a character in Smash Bros., considering how much her game is referenced. It's kinda odd.

 

[Big-Cat]

Anyone else have any thoughts of who the people they are going to support the most this time around are?

I'm going to support:

Ridley
Tom Nook
Krystal
K. Rool
Saki
Isaac
Lip
Little Mac
Ray
Starfy
Sukapon
Kumatora (despite her small chances)
Captain Syrup
Bowser Jr.
Toad
Mewtwo

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Kumatora (despite her small chances)

I'd like to ask you a question:

If Mother (Earthbound Zero) gets remade for the Nintendo DSi similarly to how Silent Hill is being remade (re-imagined) for the Wii, and Ninten sports a new look, would you support his entry for SSB4?

 

[Big-Cat]

I'd like to ask you a question:

If Mother (Earthbound Zero) gets remade for the Nintendo DSi similarly to how Silent Hill is being remade (re-imagined) for the Wii, and Ninten sports a new look, would you support his entry for SSB4?

I suppose so. If he had his old look, I would say his best chances were as an alt. The more MOTHER the better.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

I suppose so. If he had his old look, I would say his best chances were as an alt. The more MOTHER the better.

I agree.

I asked because Mother 2 and 3 are―I believe―adequately represented, while Mother is treated as if it doesn't exist. Ninten would even things out.

I also wouldn't want to over-represent either Mother 2 or 3 by adding another character from either game. It's like a "I have to add Paula for a second Mother 2 rep if I include Kumatora" type of thing for me, if that makes sense.

 

[Pieman0920]

Not appearing in a recent game doesn't mean you can't be popular. That said, I'm not sure why he hasn't appeared in any recent title, but that certainly doesn't dictate how popular he is.

Maybe "not popular" may be a bad choice of words, but him not showing up in those recent SE/Nintendo games does show that whatever level his popularity is, its not enough to get him in these games. And as I said before, its not like the games weren't open for SMRPG content, since some did get in. Just not Geno.

I really don't like the "X is better than Y" arguments. There's no proof for claims like those, it's all subjective. I can easily say that Geno is the best suited character for SSB4, but that doesn't make it true.

Its not all subjective though. More well known characters, or characters that are more important to the series tend to get in. These things aren't subjective, and have a very obvious trend in the games. Geno isn't the best suited representative of SE because he's not important to the company, and he's not as well known as other characters that they have. The same goes for the Mario series, where Geno hasn't played much of a role in, and there are characters that are more popular.

I didn't think the "one game" arguments still held any water. I can list a few existing characters in Smash Bros. who had one game.

Its only a factor that hurts, but doesn't condemn. While characters that only have one game do get in, that normally only applies to those who have series that only allow a main character to have one game, or are of series that only have one game. Now tell me if you can, if there really is a Brawl character who's only been in one game, yet his or her series continued to have more games without him and wasn't the type of series that changes period/alternate reality from game to game as is the case of LoZ, Mother, or FE characters.

In SMRPG, besides the Mario characters, Geno is probably the most well received character in the game.

Doesn't change the fact that its a 13 year old game that still has three reps. Why would such a old game need any more representation in the first place? Music sure, and a stage would be really pushing it, but it doesn't need another character.

You can think so if you want, but that doesn't make it true. I personally believe that given his popular status, he has a real shot at making it in SSB4.

Geno isn’t as popular as you think, given that his popularity isn’t strong enough to get him anywhere outside of a cameo that happened 6 years ago, despite multiple pairings of the two companies that he was formed under. Thus, I very much doubt that his popularity can carry him into a Smash game, which he should have even less chances with. Yes many of the things that hurt his chances have been overcome by other characters, but not all of them at once, while being third party at the same time. While the future is an uncertain mistress, where anything can change, if Geno’s current situation persists, I can guarantee you with any type of account bet that you’d like, that he won’t get in.

 

[n88]

Geno would be an interesting character, but for Mario characters, he has to compete with Paper Mario, Bowser Jr., and Toad. Not to mention those losers that some people support (Birdo, Daisy, Waluigi).

Geno is unlikely to represent the RPG-series. That would fall to Paper Mario or maybe Fawful.

Although I don't want to see Paper Mario get in. I would much rather see a Paper Mario stage (maybe Flipside?) where characters took on apppearances similar to Paper Mario characters.

 

[sundayseclipse]

wow i wish fans wouldnt act like its the end of the world if somthing they dont approve of, is brought up

to be honest,since geno is very wanted, and SE dousnt use him, i highly doubt its gonna be a struggle to get geno then some other SE thats well known to get in without hell breaking loose.

and adding 53 characters to smash no big deal. its a nintendo fighting game more nintendo(in smash) the better as long as they dont have a cluster****.

i hate whiney fans that bring up the same topic reoedivally especially if theyve done it before.
morale of this post- stop whinning and keep your pants on its a fudgin game

 

[Fatmanonice]

Well, regarding Takamaru, he was also mentioned in the comments following the Melee poll. Basically, someone sent in a question asking what Takamaru's chances were of ever becoming playable were. Sakurai responded that Nazo no Murasame was actually one of his favorite games but thought newer games would get upset with his obscurity. He then said that he'd highly consider adding Takamaru if he was ever in another game. Well, technically, Nazo no Murasame was re-released in Japan on the GBA in the classic NES series and he recently was in Captain Rainbow so that may count.

@ pieman:

I'll get back to the Geno stuff later. I'm going to my grandma's for meatloaf! *prances off like a happy fat kid*

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Geno has EXTREMELY low chances of being playable or even represented. I never said it was impossible, I'm just saying that it most likely won't happen. There are better characters to represent Mario, including Bowser JR., Toad, and Paper Mario. For the Mario-RPGs, Paper Mario would definately get in before Geno, if they are even represented, which I doubt.

And as someone said earlier, I don't really want to see Paper Mario playable but a stage would be nice, like Flipside, but changing the appearances of every character would be too much of a graphical struggle, maybe they can just be 2D like in Flatzone.

And also, I may be wrong, but I thought I noticed some debate over the possible size of the roster. 53... that's ridiculous. Think about it: it started out as 12, then went to 25, then went to 35 (don't count transformations). See a trend? It goes up about 10 each time (13 from SSB64 to Melee, but w/e). So in the next game, you can expect around 45 to 47. PLUS, Sakurai stated that "simply adding more characters to the Roster wouldn't create much of a new game", so I would keep the limit at 45 charcaters.

And don't forget, people over estimated Brawls Roster, some saying up to 50-55+, but what did we get? 35. Don't overestimate it... We'll be lucky if we get more than 45.

 

[BKupa666]

Hey Fatmanonice, I remember you posted something about the contents of Geno's poll requests; I was wondering if you could post the contents of the two (?) poll requests for K.Rool, if you have them. I've been curious about those...

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Maybe "not popular" may be a bad choice of words, but him not showing up in those recent SE/Nintendo games does show that whatever level his popularity is, its not enough to get him in these games. And as I said before, its not like the games weren't open for SMRPG content, since some did get in. Just not Geno.

I really doubt it deals with him not being popular enough to appear in recent games because, as stated previously, he's pretty well received, more so than most of the content in SMRPG, which you claim appears in other games.

Its not all subjective though. More well known characters, or characters that are more important to the series tend to get in. These things aren't subjective, and have a very obvious trend in the games. Geno isn't the best suited representative of SE because he's not important to the company, and he's not as well known as other characters that they have. The same goes for the Mario series, where Geno hasn't played much of a role in, and there are characters that are more popular.

Maybe so, but if that were true, then why hasn't these "more popular" characters appeared on Sakurai's Journal, let alone have as many entries as Geno does? I think it's pretty evident that people want Geno and not these alleged "more popular" characters, otherwise we'd see them instead of Geno.

Its only a factor that hurts, but doesn't condemn. While characters that only have one game do get in, that normally only applies to those who have series that only allow a main character to have one game, or are of series that only have one game. Now tell me if you can, if there really is a Brawl character who's only been in one game, yet his or her series continued to have more games without him and wasn't the type of series that changes period/alternate reality from game to game as is the case of LoZ, Mother, or FE characters.

I can't answer that, but I can say that you're embellishing the question.

Can characters that appear in one game appear in Smash Bros.? Yes.
Geno appeared in one game, therefore Geno can appear in Smash Bros. Would he is up to the creator.

I really don't think these fictitious factors you've mentioned runs through Sakurai's mind when choosing characters for Smash Bros.

Doesn't change the fact that its a 13 year old game that still has three reps.

What does the three reps matter if Geno is the most well received character whose name doesn't begin with a M, B, or P? And since when is age a factor?

Why would such a old game need any more representation in the first place?

Why is Sonic in Smash Bros.?

Because people demanded him to be in, much like Geno.

Music sure, and a stage would be really pushing it, but it doesn't need another character.

The poll and many supporters would think otherwise.

Geno isn’t as popular as you think, given that his popularity isn’t strong enough to get him anywhere outside of a cameo that happened 6 years ago, despite multiple pairings of the two companies that he was formed under.

Again, I don't think him 'not' being popular is the determining factor, otherwise we'd see him appear in a recent game for aforementioned reasons.

Thus, I very much doubt that his popularity can carry him into a Smash game, which he should have even less chances with.

His chances were pretty good as far as Brawl was concerned. Now with less characters to choose from, what makes you think that he'd have less of a shot of appearing than he did with Brawl?

Yes many of the things that hurt his chances have been overcome by other characters, but not all of them at once, while being third party at the same time.

He could very well be the first, to be genuinely honest.

While the future is an uncertain mistress, where anything can change, if Geno’s current situation persists, I can guarantee you with any type of account bet that you’d like, that he won’t get in.

We'll just have to wait and see, I suppose. =]

Geno has EXTREMELY low chances of being playable or even represented.

Clearly hyperbole.

His chances were pretty good when Brawl was being developed, I believe he's chances will be more beneficial when time SSB4 comes around.

For the Mario-RPGs, Paper Mario would definately get in before Geno, if they are even represented, which I doubt.

Mario is already in the game, and yes, I believe he covers all fronts of the Mario series. We don't need another, in my opinion.

I don't see why Geno can't be the secondary face of the Mario RPGs.

And as someone said earlier, I don't really want to see Paper Mario playable but a stage would be nice, like Flipside, but changing the appearances of every character would be too much of a graphical struggle, maybe they can just be 2D like in Flatzone.

Funny how great minds think alike. I always wanted a Flipside/Flopside stage which shifts from a 2D to 3D perspective. =]

And also, I may be wrong, but I thought I noticed some debate over the possible size of the roster. 53... that's ridiculous. Think about it: it started out as 12, then went to 25, then went to 35 (don't count transformations). See a trend? It goes up about 10 each time (13 from SSB64 to Melee, but w/e). So in the next game, you can expect around 45 to 47.

I'm not a follower of trends, truth be told.

The human mind is very good and capable of finding order in chaos and randomness. And what looks like order and trend is often completely consistent with the above. I believe the roster number is random and coincidental.

PLUS, Sakurai stated that "simply adding more characters to the Roster wouldn't create much of a new game", so I would keep the limit at 45 charcaters.

Why would you?

"Simply adding more characters to the roster wouldn't create much of a new game," okay, but does this directly affect the number of characters who'd enter of the roster? Not quite.

He can add as many characters as he wants, but he also acknowledges that he'd have to do more than just add characters.

And don't forget, people over estimated Brawls Roster, some saying up to 50-55+, but what did we get? 35. Don't overestimate it... We'll be lucky if we get more than 45.

You yourself could be underestimating it.

I'm not as passionate about the number of characters in the roster as I am with Takamaru, but I could see at least 50 characters appearing in SSB4.

 

[sundayseclipse]

eh i dont care much for geno oh well

 

[Pieman0920]

I really doubt it deals with him not being popular enough to appear in recent games because, as stated previously, he's pretty well received, more so than most of the content in SMRPG, which you claim appears in other games.

Huh? If he's so well received over other content, then why is he not showing up, while other things are? If he really was popular enough to make it into Smash, he would have been playable in these games, or at the very least a cameo, but in the end he wasn't which makes me wonder how well received you think this guy is.



M

aybe so, but if that were true, then why hasn't these "more popular" characters appeared on Sakurai's Journal, let alone have as many entries as Geno does? I think it's pretty evident that people want Geno and not these alleged "more popular" characters, otherwise we'd see them instead of Geno.

Sakurai's journal is suspect at best, seeing as not everything was actually translated over for us. On top of that, even if you use the fact that five people mentioned him in their requests, that doesn't change the fact that it was only five people out of how many votes were shown.

I can't answer that, but I can say that you're embellishing the question.

Can characters that appear in one game appear in Smash Bros.? Yes.
Geno appeared in one game, therefore Geno can appear in Smash Bros. Would he is up to the creator.

I really don't think these fictitious factors you've mentioned runs through Sakurai's mind when choosing characters for Smash Bros.

Can secondary third party characters that appear in one game be playable in Smash? Almost certainly not.

Using the basis that he has only shown up in one game isn't a valid argument against Geno, but everything that's added on top of it is what hurts him. In addition, basing that decisions go only through Sakurai's mind isn't a good thing to argue at this point, as we don't actually know who the director of Smash 4 will be, or even if the game will ever exist. Whatever the case, its pretty clear he goes for characters that have history, and represent their series well, which is something that Geno doesn't do. Heck, saying Geno could possibly represent a series is faulty in itself, as he'd only represent a single game in a series with loads of others.

What does the three reps matter if Geno is the most well received character whose name doesn't begin with a M, B, or P? And since when is age a factor?

...What? Three reps matter because the game itself is represented well enough as it is. Maybe music could be thrown in, since none of that in the Smash series, but as far as characters are concerend, there's no need to add more, since it is well covered already. Its like saying that Marx should be added or something...if Marx was third party. In addition, age is a factor, since the majority of games that are represented in Brawl were from the span inbetween SSBM and SSBB. Games that were not though were retro games from the NES days or earlier. Outside of music, there was really no SNES or N64 representation, and if the current trend continues, they'll be skipped over again, with the GC added with them.

Why is Sonic in Smash Bros.?

Because people demanded him to be in, much like Geno.

Don't even compare Sonic's demand to Geno's. It'll only make you look dumb. In addition, their positions in their own franchises, amount of games, and the history they have are complete opposites of one another.

The poll and many supporters would think otherwise.

Five kids from Japan, and two dozen or so people on the internet sure do influence a lot of games, don't they?

Again, I don't think him 'not' being popular is the determining factor, otherwise we'd see him appear in a recent game for aforementioned reasons.

What are you talking about? You're saying some other type of legal issue is what's bogging him down or something? In that case, then he is suffering from that. Seriously, how do you think he can get into a Smash Bros game, if he can't get into any of these new RPGs, aka the genre he's known for?

His chances were pretty good as far as Brawl was concerned. Now with less characters to choose from, what makes you think that he'd have less of a shot of appearing than he did with Brawl?

How were they good? They were slightly less bad than they are now, due to age, but they were still horrible then as well. As far as anyone knows, Sakurai didn't even contact SE, and even if he did, it may have been for only music, which he still wasn't allowed to use. (And in case you didn't know, the possible incluson of SMRPG music doesn't mean the possible inclusion of Geno.) Face it, Geno never had a chance for Brawl, and unless his act gets straightend up, his chances are even worse for SSB4. The amount of characters are indeed less than before, but as time goes on, more and more characters are created, or expanded upon. That's not happening for Geno though, as his one game, which has already been represented, is just getting older and older.

 

[Lord Viper]

eh i dont care much for geno oh well

☆ I don't think many people do except for a few select people. He was populer because of the polls, IMO, and Super Mario RPG is one of the best Mario games of all times. ☆

 

[Wisp]

Geno is unlikely to represent the RPG-series. That would fall to Paper Mario or maybe Fawful.

Mwahahaha!

Thumbs way up to Flipside/Flopside stage, by the by. If there is as pathetically little Paper Mario stuff in SSB4 as there was in Brawl, I will be deeply saddened. :[ With three great games out (TTYD wasn't great, actually, it was phenomenal), the series totally deserves at least a stage. Brawl didn't even have Paper Mario music. :'[[[ Très lame.

 

[Pieman0920]

Yeah, while it was understandable that there would be little if any SMRPG stuff, its really a shame that the RPGs got completely shafted. I guess it was because the Mario series already got so much attention with its five stages? Still, while I understand why the Mario spin off they would pick would be Mario Kart, I wish that they would have just added a RPG stage and cut one of the two retro stages... Oh well. If I had my say for a SSB4, there'd be a SMG stage, Bowser's Castle stage, Paper Mario stage, and SMB3 stage. While that'd cut out the Kart series, and be one less than Brawl's Mario representation, I still think it'd work well.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

His chances were pretty good when Brawl was being developed, I believe he's chances will be more beneficial when time SSB4 comes around.

Actually, I believe his chances will be worse. First of all, he was never close to getting into the game, there were copyright issues between Nintedno and Square Enix that wouldn't allow it. Plus, Geno will be 5 to 6 years older by the time we see SSB4. Sure, hes old like retro characters, but they were classics, Geno is from a single SNES game that he wasn't even the star of.

Mario is already in the game, and yes, I believe he covers all fronts of the Mario series. We don't need another, in my opinion.

I don't see why Geno can't be the secondary face of the Mario RPGs.

There is Link, and there is Toon Link. Mario and Paper Mario are in the same boat, but Paper Mario can be given a unique moveset with the hammer and the spindash, etc. Plus, Paper Mario has more games than Geno, is actually the stars of his games, and his games are still being made. Paper Mario still has low chances, and Geno would never get in before Paper Mario. And theres no way we're seeing two new Mario-RPG reps in SSB4.

Funny how great minds think alike. I always wanted a Flipside/Flopside stage which shifts from a 2D to 3D perspective. =]

Agreed on this. If the Mario-RPGs get represented at all, this should at least be there representation.

I'm not a follower of trends, truth be told.

The human mind is very good and capable of finding order in chaos and randomness. And what looks like order and trend is often completely consistent with the above. I believe the roster number is random and coincidental.

Don't believe in trends? Well, start believin'.

Upper 45+ is what we'll see almost guaranteed, but anymore than 50 just won't happen. In a situation like that, we'd be exremely lucky, considering the chances of that happening is pretty low. I still stand by this:

SSB64: 12 +13 = Melee: 25 + 10 = Brawl: 35 + ???

The ??? could be anywhere from 8 to 13, maybe 14 if we're lucky. Don't over-estimate it. Remember what happened with Brawl.

Why would you?

"Simply adding more characters to the roster wouldn't create much of a new game," okay, but does this directly affect the number of characters who'd enter of the roster? Not quite.

He can add as many characters as he wants, but he also acknowledges that he'd have to do more than just add characters.

Why would I? Because I'm different than everyone else here in that I like to look at things realistically. Before Brawl came out, I gave into the hype and I had myself convinced that there were going to be over 50 characters and what happened when Brawl came out? Extremely disappointed, Brawl is now one of my least played games (Melee is my most played). I expected too much.

But now, I look back at that and I realize that everyone expected too much from Brawl, and that there is no point in hoping when all of that hope will turn to nothing once the game does come out. I'm not going to tell myself there are over 50 characters in the game when in reality, we'll be lucky to get over 43.

And I do agree with the second statement.

You yourself could be underestimating it.

I'm not as passionate about the number of characters in the roster as I am with Takamaru, but I could see at least 50 characters appearing in SSB4.

I know I'm not under estimating it. I've seen this before at places like Nsider, where the hype was huge. People knew we would get around 50 characters in Brawl, but what did we get? Just over 30.

Now the same is happening with SSB4. I'd say 50 AT MOST, but the chances of 50 are still extremely low. People like you are too prone to being so passionate about things that you nearly convince yourself it has to be true. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, just telling it how I see it.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Sorry, double post...

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Haha ****, triple post! Don't get much o these... really sorry guys!

 

[sundayseclipse]

douse it matter how many char they add.....well if u want char for ssb but i want 65 for 5

were gona get at least 10-15 nit cou ting 3rd party,advertisment and etc

 

[Fatmanonice]

Hey Fatmanonice, I remember you posted something about the contents of Geno's poll requests; I was wondering if you could post the contents of the two (?) poll requests for K.Rool, if you have them. I've been curious about those...

Unfortunately, I don't have them and none of them really said anything noteworthy that would have made them memorable. There was one where the person threatened to go on a rampage if King Dedede wasn't included though.

Anyways, I haven't read all the things said about Geno yet but Sakurai's speech at GDC 08 sort of turned our perceptions of what got into Smash upside. These were basically the main points that were brought up that everyone should keep in mind when talking about characters:

1. The roster was the first major thing decided about Brawl. This was decided even before the development team was completed and, in fact, was done, aside from Sonic, just three days after development technically started. Chances are this will be the same for SSB4. As soon as SSB4 is announced, there's an extremellly large chance that the roster will have been decided months before and late additions will be rare.

2. Sakurai doesn't really discern between who's important and who's not. He mainly goes with the amount of original material the character can provide. According to him, his goal is to offer characters that have characteristics that can genuinely be called "unique". Basically, he believes the "character" of the character is just as important as the moveset potential they have. To make it even easier to understand, boring and shallow characters (whether it be personality or moveset potential) won't even be considered. Why? It's because, according to his presentation at GDC 08, he created every character's moveset and even all their movements. What about the clones in Melee then? He said shortly after Melee that many were indeed last minute additions to bolster the roster and, in his journal, he expressed that was one of his biggest regrets with Melee and didn't want to do it again.

3. "Adding only popular characters, just doesn't excite me." One of the 29 comments that Sakurai left in his "journal". Granted, popularity helps but it's definately not the most important factor. Again, Sakurai wants characters he can be enthusiastic about and may simply be inspired by the enthusiasm of the fans or how the character offers something different.

4. Despite previous notions that were held before GDC 08, third party involvement is actually somewhat easy according to Sakurai. Either Nintendo contacts the third party or the third party contacts them. According to Sakurai, the copyright right issues aren't that difficult to get around for this (at least compared to what we previously thought it was like). When it comes to third party characters, there are basically two issues to deal with: getting the third party to get involved or letting them come on board and spending the time programming the character/s. As previously mentioned, Sonic was added more than 2 years after the roster had been decided and, oddly enough according to Sakurai, Nintendo actually approached SEGA instead of the other way around. Snake, on the other side, was added after Hideo Kojima offered him.

5. If another poll is done, the characters that do well will be cameos if included. Like mentioned several times already, the roster was decided early on and there is strong evidence that Sakurai looks at past results to determine most of the new playable characters.

 

[ChronoBound]

Geno is obscure and very unworthy. Like others have said, better representatives for the Mario RPG subseries would be Paper Mario or Fawful. Overall, I would say the best options for the fifth playable Mario character would be Paper Mario, Toad, and Bowser Jr. I would gladly elaborate on these if someone wanted me to.

Also, Sakurai NEVER said that he regretted adding the clones from Melee.

 

[Clownbot]

In addition, there are probably better Square reps as well.

Just sayin'.

 

[n88]

@ Spydr Enzo

Your trend-thing is a bit off, because there are more newcomers htan that in Brawl.

Really, it should look like this:

SSB64: 12+14=Melee: 26-4+17=Brawl: 39

Transformations should be counted as separate characters because:

1) Sakurai considers them to be separate. According to Sakurai, Melee has 26 characters, Brawl has 39.

2) A transformation takes an equal amount of time to produce as a normal character.

3) Just because they don't have a spot on the Character Select Screen is not a good enough reason. Zero Suit Samus is completely distinct from Samus. You will likely never see a person switch between the two in a match (unless you play with Smash Balls). They are completely different characters. Why should they count as one?

 

[ChronoBound]

@ Spydr Enzo

Your trend-thing is a bit off, because there are more newcomers htan that in Brawl.

Really, it should look like this:

SSB64: 12+14=Melee: 26-4+17=Brawl: 39

Transformations should be counted as separate characters because:

1) Sakurai considers them to be separate. According to Sakurai, Melee has 26 characters, Brawl has 39.

Yes, Sakurai counts the number of characters in each Smash game by the number of total characters (which includes transformations) not the number of slots. In an interview in regards to Smash 4, Sakurai said that "Right now we have 39 characters. If I made a sequel and we had 50 characters, would that make it a better game? No."