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Official Metaknight Discussion

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adumbrodeus

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hey just so i don't look like an idiot in front of you

where do you stand on this whole MK issue?
Just because my name is purple? Lol


After DMG's data I became pro-planking ban, and pro mk ban if it's impossible to discretely enforcably ban it, then ban MK. Otherwise anti-ban until my personal "negates over 75% of the cast" criteria is met. Or a rigid data-based criteria is established.
 

OfTheEarth

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Just because my name is purple? Lol


After DMG's data I became pro-planking ban, and pro mk ban if it's impossible to discretely enforcably ban it, then ban MK. Otherwise anti-ban until my personal "negates over 75% of the cast" criteria is met. Or a rigid data-based criteria is established.
yohoho
so thats what it means

yeah
i honestly think it's fun to go against metaknight and try to beat him,
and I play Ness
I love a challenge but planking just doesn't make the game fun
 

adumbrodeus

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I thought it was 50%+1? o_O
That was my "suggested starting point for debate" criteria, and a nice rounded criteria.


If we don't establish a universal criteria to follow, then it comes down to "percentage of people who have a personal criteria that MK fits into compared to the percentage that doesn't".


It's not unreasonable, I just don't expect the community to ever universally endorse 75%+1.

yohoho
so thats what it means

yeah
i honestly think it's fun to go against metaknight and try to beat him,
and I play Ness
I love a challenge but planking just doesn't make the game fun
Scrubbieness! You disapoint with your lack of acceptance of valuable tactics, no cool points for you.


Lol, not really, just saying "fun" is not a viable argument, except MAYBE when statistically backed.


Why not ban him?
Wrong question, not that there aren't plenty of good reasons to ban him assuming that he meets your personal criteria, but you don't need to prove the negative to force inaction.
 

Espy Rose

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Though it may not be pie per se, please do remember that Overswarm promises a cake for Meta Knight's ban.
You REALLY don't want cake, do you?
 
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I think that since DMG proved that MK can use a technique that is impossible to define in a technical way to become invincible for however long the player wishes, we no longer need any other kind of criteria. I mean, it's kind of implied at this point.
 

adumbrodeus

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Though it may not be pie per se, please do remember that Overswarm promises a cake for Meta Knight's ban.
You REALLY don't want cake, do you?
Yes, I would love cake, but sadly, and I'd honestly love to see MK banned. But as much as I would love these things to happen, I don't think that I should be switching my criteria simply because I want something to occur, I am all too aware of the massive issues that bias that goes into these decisions, so swaying my criteria simply because I don't like the results it gets me...

Wait, so being pretty much invincible whenever the player deems it so isn't criteria enough?

lolol
When a single technique that's not part of the natural moveset of the character moves a character from "clearly not banworthy" to "lol omg, akuma has nothing", I think it's the technique that's banworthy, not the character.

That said, I'm gonna try to find ways around planking rules, and I would agree with banning MK if banning planking is impossible realistically, he definitely fits my criteria in that case.


i like pie
and cobbler
and kidna cake

but yeah

i understand now sir!
Good man, you know where it's at.
 

Overswarm

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adumbrodeus, I think you should retract yours 75% characters unviable and approach it from a "viable characters" approach.

First, make your own personal definition of "viable character". What % of top X do they need to be considered 'viable'? Are you using top 1, top 2, top 4, top 8?

Once you have this down (which is admittedly arbitrary), you can shorten your list of characters in Brawl to the list of viable characters (viable characters should be playable at a high level of play and NOT just by one individual) and then determine dominance ratios using the same criteria you used to determine viable characters.





The follwoing could be considered "spoilers" if you forgot, but I've already posted them so...








I've already posted the data in the back room and you've seen it, so this is the current standing:

If you believe only MK, Snake, and Diddy are viable, here is the dominance rating (I used top 2, was focusing on money placements):



If you believe it went down to say, Lucario:




The dominance % changes based on how many characters are considered viable. Doing this prevents people from saying "look, he's X% away!" when 5% of dominance is spread out over irrelevant characters like captain falcon and jigglypuff that obviously aren't viable but are given points by good players or medicore players in bad regions.
 

adumbrodeus

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adumbrodeus, I think you should retract yours 75% characters unviable and approach it from a "viable characters" approach.

First, make your own personal definition of "viable character". What % of top X do they need to be considered 'viable'? Are you using top 1, top 2, top 4, top 8?

Once you have this down (which is admittedly arbitrary), you can shorten your list of characters in Brawl to the list of viable characters (viable characters should be playable at a high level of play and NOT just by one individual) and then determine dominance ratios using the same criteria you used to determine viable characters.





The follwoing could be considered "spoilers" if you forgot, but I've already posted them so...








I've already posted the data in the back room and you've seen it, so this is the current standing:

If you believe only MK, Snake, and Diddy are viable, here is the dominance rating (I used top 2, was focusing on money placements):



If you believe it went down to say, Lucario:




The dominance % changes based on how many characters are considered viable. Doing this prevents people from saying "look, he's X% away!" when 5% of dominance is spread out over irrelevant characters like captain falcon and jigglypuff that obviously aren't viable but are given points by good players or medicore players in bad regions.
"Otherwise viable", explained that to you before, but I probably should've noted that, that's also the reason why I support a temp ban (under the conditions that I stated in the discussion of course), to establish that what characters are "otherwise viable" through experimentation.
 

Gnes

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For a closer example, that M2K vs. gnes video. I would've likely DQ's M2K for the scrooging. However, if instead of approaching gnes simply ran to the other side of the stage every time the platform started moving, I would've DQ'd him, too. Even if MK's scrooging is beatable, even if it isn't, even if they proceed to rob me blind, they're both DQ'd.

The important part here is trying.
Wait hold on....in what situation was I not following him trying to get the lead back(save doing retreating naner pulls)...but whatever...

You are completely right, next time I will jump off stage in happiness and watch as mk carries juggles me too oblivion and i lose what little chance i had of winning the match.
 

Nanaki

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Commenting on a few old posts because I missed them:

People can do crazy things with the right mindset, I've personally waited in a bush for about an hour, JUST TO TRAIN MY PATIENCE.
wtf, dude. I know someone else already commented on this, but seriously? You probably would've been better off sitting in front of your TV watching two characters in a neutral position for an hour.

...unless you were peeping at a neighbor chick or something...:(

Getting hit by Ike's Forward smash wheny ou are in a position to avoid it is called ERROR. Human error. you should NEVER, EVER get hit by Ike's Fsmash outside of a dizzy.
Isn't it guaranteed if you read a roll behind you and fsmash in that direction on the same frame (or close) as when they roll? I suppose that might qualify as human error, but you would've been fine if the Ike hadn't predicted your roll and started the fsmash the same time you did (also depends on the rolling character's roll frame data, but you get what I mean).

There are still characters that are viable vs MK.
inb4"oh but the majority still is under MK's shadow which is unfair!!!" then WHY in melee do I see fox falco sheik marth all the time? That's like 4 chars. brawl we have MK snake falco diddy which is 4. I dont want to hear that melee shouldn't be a comparison because it's a much more balance game.
Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Jiggs, Peach, CF are all very viable. Leaving out Jiggs and Peach is pretty ridiculous.

Good luck arguing that the top 7 in Brawl are as equally viable as the top 7 in Melee.

i tried to make a tactic to get you people to realize how stupid this game is and quit

instead you just ban my tactic

****IN LAME
I ****ing lol'd.
 
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Wait, so being pretty much invincible whenever the player deems it so isn't criteria enough?

lolol
Oh, he's had that for a while. Just now, we can't find a way to ban it easily. :V

Wait hold on....in what situation was I not following him trying to get the lead back(save doing retreating naner pulls)...but whatever...

You are completely right, next time I will jump off stage in happiness and watch as mk carries juggles me too oblivion and i lose what little chance i had of winning the match.
Ignore that guy, he just doesn't know how **** works.
 

adumbrodeus

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There are still characters that are viable vs MK.
inb4"oh but the majority still is under MK's shadow which is unfair!!!" then WHY in melee do I see fox falco sheik marth all the time? That's like 4 chars. brawl we have MK snake falco diddy which is 4. I dont want to hear that melee shouldn't be a comparison because it's a much more balance game.

What are you talking about? I said if I recall correctly, at the end of each match, it shows the number of ledge grabs a long with other things, and I THINK one of them is aerial distance covered.
Didn't notice this, even by the most conservative estimates, jiggs is viable. Most estimates place it as far down as Ganondorf.

Marth is barely placing now, and Sheik never placed because nobody plays her. Seriously, you're too slow, that was the pre-genesis metagame.
=wtf, dude. I know someone else already commented on this, but seriously? You probably would've been better off sitting in front of your TV watching two characters in a neutral position for an hour.

...unless you were peeping at a neighbor chick or something...:(
Wow, no.

I'm a massive fan of stealth games, the particular situation was during a game of manhunt. I won because I literally did not move even though they painstakingly search the area for about an hour. A few people almost stepped on me several times.

When they finally decided that I wasn't there after about an hour of searching, I waited till the guard they posted wasn't looking, dashed for the flag, and stole it, and got back to base. I was the last guy left, so I couldn't afford to be sloppy, managed to avoid the guard even seeing me sneak into the base.

It was awesome, but the point is, I'm incredibly patient.
 

Espy Rose

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Yes, I would love cake, but sadly, and I'd honestly love to see MK banned. But as much as I would love these things to happen, I don't think that I should be switching my criteria simply because I want something to occur, I am all too aware of the massive issues that bias that goes into these decisions, so swaying my criteria simply because I don't like the results it gets me...
But he's promised it to be nice and moist...

That's a risk I'm willing to take!!

EDIT: Not gonna lie either, that first sentence of yours made my eyes spin on the first read through.
 

adumbrodeus

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But he's promised it to be nice and moist...

That's a risk I'm willing to take!!

EDIT: Not gonna lie either, that first sentence of yours made my eyes spin on the first read through.
Lol, I want cake too...


Regardless, it hasn't been a secret, I'm a marth fanboy, if I was willing to let my bias get in the way, I'd be pushing for every character that beats marth to be banned. Do you know how many times I've wanted to make a "ban DK" thread after Will ***** me? Not gonna lie, but I refuse to let bias standing in the way of making the best choice.
 

Espy Rose

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Lol, I want cake too...


Regardless, it hasn't been a secret, I'm a marth fanboy, if I was willing to let my bias get in the way, I'd be pushing for every character that beats marth to be banned. Do you know how many times I've wanted to make a "ban DK" thread after Will ***** me? Not gonna lie, but I refuse to let bias standing in the way of making the best choice.
I'll give you a slice when it happens then. <3

If I let my bias get in the way, Sonic would be bottom of mid, or top of low. Ike would still lay waste in the land of the low tiers in those events, though. lol.
 

Nanaki

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Wow, no.

I'm a massive fan of stealth games, the particular situation was during a game of manhunt. I won because I literally did not move even though they painstakingly search the area for about an hour. A few people almost stepped on me several times.

When they finally decided that I wasn't there after about an hour of searching, I waited till the guard they posted wasn't looking, dashed for the flag, and stole it, and got back to base. I was the last guy left, so I couldn't afford to be sloppy, managed to avoid the guard even seeing me sneak into the base.

It was awesome, but the point is, I'm incredibly patient.
That makes more sense. Next time, I'd avoid telling people you just sat in the bushes for an hour for no good reason unless you want to arouse suspsicion :p

Slightly offtopic:

Is your 'mathematical method of micro-analyzing matchups' underway yet, or has it been shelved in favor of the current SBR matchup project? I figured your new status would give you access to knowledgable people willing to help, if you were to go that route.
 

adumbrodeus

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That makes more sense. Next time, I'd avoid telling people you just sat in the bushes for an hour for no good reason unless you want to arouse suspsicion :p

Slightly offtopic:

Is your 'mathematical method of micro-analyzing matchups' underway yet, or has it been shelved in favor of the current SBR matchup project? I figured your new status would give you access to knowledgable people willing to help, if you were to go that route.
Now you see, I actually used to train like this, just picking a random bush, and being perfectly silent for about 15 minutes, it's a survival skill. I do parcour for the same reason, and like a million martial arts.

Planning on proposing it as a project shortly actually, so we'll see how it goes.


I'll give you a slice when it happens then. <3

If I let my bias get in the way, Sonic would be bottom of mid, or top of low. Ike would still lay waste in the land of the low tiers in those events, though. lol.
Awesome, cake!


Yea, I know exactly how you feel.
 

The Brigand

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srsly guys was all that **** really necessary? I knew ahead of time that my idea most likely sucked, you didn't have to make me look like a moron on top of that.

Wait hold on....in what situation was I not following him trying to get the lead back(save doing retreating naner pulls)...but whatever...

You are completely right, next time I will jump off stage in happiness and watch as mk carries juggles me too oblivion and i lose what little chance i had of winning the match.
What I meant was that if the platform's on the left, in the hypothetical situation that I would've DQ'd you, you'd be on the right side of the stage. And when it starts moving right and M2K goes under the stage so he can meet the platform on the right, you move to the left side of the stage.

=/ Anywho, sorry for all my bull****, guys. I'll go back to lurking now.
 

adumbrodeus

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Lol, seems like I'm a popular guy, could I raise it to emperor?


srsly guys was all that **** really necessary? I knew ahead of time that my idea most likely sucked, you didn't have to make me look like a moron on top of that.



What I meant was that if the platform's on the left, in the hypothetical situation that I would've DQ'd you, you'd be on the right side of the stage. And when it starts moving right and M2K goes under the stage so he can meet the platform on the right, you move to the left side of the stage.

=/ Anywho, sorry for all my bull****, guys. I'll go back to lurking now.
I was nice about it, but honestly it's not so much a matter of being a moron as lacking experience, in which case lurking is useful, but finding a good community to help you get experience in the game is more useful.


You've got 66 posts, it's expected, you're not too familar with the community. I used to play without timer too, before I realized that some people are very patient.


Or actually, before the people I played with realized how patient I am.
 

OfTheEarth

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Lol, seems like I'm a popular guy, could I raise it to emperor?




I was nice about it, but honestly it's not so much a matter of being a moron as lacking experience, in which case lurking is useful, but finding a good community to help you get experience in the game is more useful.


You've got 66 posts, it's expected, you're not too familar with the community. I used to play without timer too, before I realized that some people are very patient.


Or actually, before the people I played with realized how patient I am.
?
is your name adam by any chance? :D
 

BOB SAGET!

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wow adumbrodeus! your in the sbr! i see u post a lot of smart info and its a good thing they recoginized it. congrats!
 

adumbrodeus

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Thanks, I also saw you on SRK, which reminds me, need to do a post about melee's depth.


I'm there to lurk the sagat boards and third strike boards till I get good mostly, or find another game to lurk and get good at.
 
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