Official Metaknight Discussion

[Supermodel From Paris]

I believe that if any items are on at all, King Dedede has a random chance of throwing a capsule. Even if no items are actually on, having the items set to "on" will allow him to do this.

 

[Mic_128]

Even if all items are off he still has a chance of throwing an empty (and non explodable) capsule.

 

[Pete278]

Dedede is the only one effected, though, as Peach's works all the time, regardless of the state of items, afaik.

 

[Kewkky]

Ahaha! CRASHiC went off the deep end!

It's both bad and good, seeing he's actually a human and not a machine. His innocence is broken...

Spoiler

But not as broken as Metaknight!

Look at that bat-winged evil... Let's ban it.

Dedede is the only one effected, though, as Peach's works all the time, regardless of the state of items, afaik.

So... That pretty much beats out the whole "no capsule" thing, huh? That's yet another random infusion for DDD's sideB, we have enough spontaneous gordos as it is. :/

 

[MarKO X]

Hey RDK, check this out

Let's take Apex2, the national that's getting worldwide hype and see what's banned and whether or not it fits RDK's criteria...
First, the ruleset is here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258857
Compare it to the SBR ruleset: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230481
Second, RDK's criteria: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9394647&postcount=949
but here it is for easy viewing and the link as a reference.

Rigid criteria:

Does the tactic / character over-centralizes? Is the game completely centralized around one tactic or character to the point of absurdity? (The majority of the roster is usually where we draw the line here; in this case 2/3rds).

Is the tactic / character anti-competitive? Is there excessive randomness, lag, or does it take away player control in an unreasonable way?

Does the tactic / character prevent competition? Are there freeze glitches, invisible characters, stall tactics, are characters removed from the field, etc.?

You have to fit all three conditions to get banned, right?

First, let's get at the Ledge grab rule (which, you can say, bans grabbing the ledge more than 50 times in the event of a time out).
Does the tactic / character over-centralizes? Is the game completely centralized around one tactic or character to the point of absurdity? (The majority of the roster is usually where we draw the line here; in this case 2/3rds). It hasn't been proven, so as far as my knowledge can tell, no.

Is the tactic / character anti-competitive? Is there excessive randomness, lag, or does it take away player control in an unreasonable way? No.

Does the tactic / character prevent competition? Are there freeze glitches, invisible characters, stall tactics, are characters removed from the field, etc.? Depends on how you define stalling. technically, if you're in the lead in a fighting game, you are not obligated to approach your opponent where there is a time limit. Even still, it has not been proven to be a superior "you can't hit me" stall tactic, so I'm going to take the liberty of saying no.

Now for the banned stages that the SBR says can be counterpick but doesn't show up in Apex and are thus banned.

Pokemon Stadium 2
Does the tactic / character over-centralizes? Is the game completely centralized around one tactic or character to the point of absurdity? (The majority of the roster is usually where we draw the line here; in this case 2/3rds). No. Unless you can inform me of someone that dominates 2/3 of the cast by cp'ing this stage, gg.

Is the tactic / character anti-competitive? Is there excessive randomness, lag, or does it take away player control in an unreasonable way? No, there's what, 5 potential forms to the level? It's not that bad.

Does the tactic / character prevent competition? Are there freeze glitches, invisible characters, stall tactics, are characters removed from the field, etc.? No

Pirate Ship
Does the tactic / character over-centralizes? Is the game completely centralized around one tactic or character to the point of absurdity? (The majority of the roster is usually where we draw the line here; in this case 2/3rds). No, unless you can show me otherwise.

Is the tactic / character anti-competitive? Is there excessive randomness, lag, or does it take away player control in an unreasonable way? The randomness of pirate ship can be compared to the randomness of Halberd.

Does the tactic / character prevent competition? Are there freeze glitches, invisible characters, stall tactics, are characters removed from the field, etc.? No.

Jungle Japes
Does the tactic / character over-centralizes? Is the game completely centralized around one tactic or character to the point of absurdity? (The majority of the roster is usually where we draw the line here; in this case 2/3rds). The stereotype is that Falco destroys everyone on this stage, but I don't know how many characters "everybody" actually is...

Is the tactic / character anti-competitive? Is there excessive randomness, lag, or does it take away player control in an unreasonable way? No

Does the tactic / character prevent competition? Are there freeze glitches, invisible characters, stall tactics, are characters removed from the field, etc.? No.


Pictochat
Does the tactic / character over-centralizes? Is the game completely centralized around one tactic or character to the point of absurdity? (The majority of the roster is usually where we draw the line here; in this case 2/3rds). Other than the Kirby thing, no.

Is the tactic / character anti-competitive? Is there excessive randomness, lag, or does it take away player control in an unreasonable way? There is quite a bit of randomness (unless there is a pattern to the stage changes that I don't know about), but I think it's overall playable.

Does the tactic / character prevent competition? Are there freeze glitches, invisible characters, stall tactics, are characters removed from the field, etc.? No... except maybe the Kirby stone thingy... not sure how that hitbox works, along with frame data and such.

Now for something that is in the SBR recommended list, but I want to tackle it anyway.

MK's IDC (in terms of use for positioning, not for stalling)
Does the tactic / character over-centralizes? Is the game completely centralized around one tactic or character to the point of absurdity? (The majority of the roster is usually where we draw the line here; in this case 2/3rds). Haven't proven it, so it's innocent until proven guilty. Thus, No.

Is the tactic / character anti-competitive? Is there excessive randomness, lag, or does it take away player control in an unreasonable way? No, so long as it's not used for stalling. It's merely a teleport, similar to the modern Akuma (not ST Akuma or Shin Akuma) or Dhalsim teleport.

Does the tactic / character prevent competition? Are there freeze glitches, invisible characters, stall tactics, are characters removed from the field, etc.? The invisible character, MK, can be tracked due to the movement (or lack thereof) of the screen, and if it's used for stalling, that's what a TO is for.

Notes about IDC:

the use of IDC for positioning as opposed to stalling can be compared to the Mvc1/2 Deadbody glitch. The Deadbody glitch is hitting a dead opponent with an infinite combo that keeps the "dead body" from disappearing and allowing the opponent's next character to show up. While it is legal to use the Deadbody glitch for better positioning, such as getting the opponent to a chosen side of a stage, it is illegal to keep doing it forever, for the time could run out and the opponent lose the match for losing one opponent.

the startup and cooldown on the Dimensional Cape is pretty hilarious (from: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205614)

DIMENSIONAL CAPE
frame breakdown:
1-17
18-26 invincibility frames
27-54 cooldown

frame summary:
cooldown: 27
total invincibility frames:9

notes:
- despite MK turning invisible on frame 13, he does not receive invincibility frames until frame 18
- MK can move around starting on frame 14

So yeah, banning IDC completely is unjustified.
Additionally, there's this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8030535&postcount=6954 from .joel, who's in the SBR.
EDC would qualify as the IDC being used for positioning.

Conclusion: with the exception of maybe pictochat, which potentially meets the criteria for banning, nothing mentioned should be banned from Apex, or any Brawl tournament for that matter. I'm sure there are other things.

So now that all of that has been said, why so inconsistent?

 

[Orion*]

Dedede is the only one effected, though, as Peach's works all the time, regardless of the state of items, afaik.

we needed to know that

 

[RDK]

stuff

Why so inconsistent? All you did was go through a list of Brawl elements and then strawman my criteria to hell and back.

IDC doesn't break the criteria? You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Anyways, I'm going to have to respond to it, but it'll have to wait until tomorrow. I have three tests in the morning.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

we needed to know that

If it was you Inui punched, I'm glad.

 

[MarKO X]

Why so inconsistent? All you did was go through a list of Brawl elements and then strawman my criteria to hell and back.

IDC doesn't break the criteria? You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Anyways, I'm going to have to respond to it, but it'll have to wait until tomorrow. I have three tests in the morning.

cant wait for the response.
good luck on your tests.

 

[Orion*]

If it was you Inui punched, I'm glad.

LOL. i forgave him the next day <3

 

[Mic_128]

Pictochat
Is the tactic / character anti-competitive? Is there excessive randomness, lag, or does it take away player control in an unreasonable way? There is quite a bit of randomness (unless there is a pattern to the stage changes that I don't know about), but I think it's overall playable.

The stage changes are random but it changes every 13 seconds (26 seconds between a non-blank transform and the next non-blank transform) and it will never use the same transformation twice in an 8 minute match.

MK's IDC (in terms of use for positioning, not for stalling)
Does the tactic / character over-centralizes? Is the game completely centralized around one tactic or character to the point of absurdity? (The majority of the roster is usually where we draw the line here; in this case 2/3rds). Haven't proven it, so it's innocent until proven guilty. Thus, No.

Is the tactic / character anti-competitive? Is there excessive randomness, lag, or does it take away player control in an unreasonable way? No, so long as it's not used for stalling. It's merely a teleport, similar to the modern Akuma (not ST Akuma or Shin Akuma) or Dhalsim teleport.

You mean the tactic that makes the character invincible, invisable and just generally "takes away player control in an unreasonable way"? This isn't the normal Dimentional Cape, this is the infinite we're talking about here. It can be used in a billion absurd ways that aren't just camping, probably the most obvious is a way to recover from insanely far off stage back to the center without being touched.

Does the tactic / character prevent competition? Are there freeze glitches, invisible characters, stall tactics, are characters removed from the field, etc.?

Does it prevent competition? Yes. Freeze glitches? No. Invisible Characters? Yes. Stall Tactics? Yes. Characters removed from the field? Yes.

That's 4 of 5.

It should (and is) be rightfully banned.

 

[BarDulL]

I've explained why IDC, Jigglypuff, and Peach bans are different before many times but I guess I can do it again!

The difference between these bans and a Ledge Grab ban is that these bans in place represent minor changes in a character's move set that are easily enforceable. If you add a LGL to stop Meta Knight from planking every single character is affected. If you add a rule saying only MK has a LGL then you admit MK is broken in a way that no one else is, when in fact everyone else has access to said mechanic. If a character cannot play on the same plane everyone else is when all else is equal, they are broken.

Ledge grab limits are bad for the game for reasons I stated above. They are instituted as a microban to address a single character with an overarching gameplay change that potentially affects more than the character it is aiming to address. ROB and Pit are great on the edge for instance and spend a lot of time there but dont' necessarily "plank" (or not very successfully, they are easily taken care of there). By instituting these rules, we are asking players (specifically MK players) not to play to win. We are asking them to make concessions. We are asking them to not do something we don't like because it's "gay." Either MK is allowed to play to win or he is bannable. Ban him or let planking, circle verbing, and other various gayness to reign; don't pussyfoot in the middle.

So yeah, these rules are scrubby, moreso than any character ban.

Hah! The correct response to this is "So what? He's fair now, isn't that a better solution than outright removing him?" But yes, I agree that implementing ledge grab limits and anti-scrooging rules to combat these powerful strategies are certainly "unwarranted." Metaknight is what he is, mechanics and all. Although these strategies could be over-encompassing (actually, they most likely are) to MKs general combat strategy, they are merely tools MK has at his disposal. It is not a glitch or something put into the game unintentionally.

Every character has tools. Falco can chainthrow most characters into a dair for a 40% combo. That is a tool he has. Is it unfair? Well, I suppose it can be, depending on who you ask. It's entirely subjective, what is and what isn't fair. But that is the problem...in fact, I feel it is the core of this whole mess!

Ah, but before I add on to that, lets backtrack a moment. I've already stated that MK has very powerful tools at his disposal. But, every character has tools, so where do we draw the line between Metaknight's tools and...any other character? *for the sake of banning purposes*

 

[ADHD]

**** YOU YOU **** SUCKING DUMB *** ***** MOTHER ****ER I PROVIDED THE EXAMPLE OF ITEMS IN BRAWL AND YOU COMPLETELY IGNORE IT YOU IGNORANT DIP **** RAT **** RING MEAT. What the **** is a matter with you? You come in here and complain about other people intellgent and lack of understanding and lack of debating abilities, when you SHOWCASE ALL OF THESE QUALITIES MORE THAN ANYONE IN THIS THREAD. You REFUSE to respond to ANY real cases brought against you. GET ***** IN THE ****ING HEAD ***** BY MY BIG FACK BLACK **** MOTHER ****ER>

Under the beautiful vocabulary and thousands of walls of symmetrical text, I think this is what smash debaters really want to say deep down to one another. ****ing LOL.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

As I said a moment ago:

MK's tools require overarching microbans to address without outright banning him. Seeing as the former is a bad option for obvious reasons, the latter is obviously the better option.

 

[ADHD]

As I said a moment ago:

MK's tools require overarching microbans to address without outright banning him. Seeing as the former is a bad option for obvious reasons, the latter is obviously the better option.

No it's not, what are you talking about?

 

[Orion*]

if ADHD doesnt get infracted for that i will cry, i was infracted for saying "that was beautiful" in response to the same thing. in fact, ban crashic he's added nothing worthwhile to this thread hes just an angry little kid.

edit: ^ not everyone is good at this game wyatt you dont have to make him feel stupid for not being good at a mu

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

No it's not, what are you talking about?

I've explained why IDC, Jigglypuff, and Peach bans are different before many times but I guess I can do it again!

The difference between these bans and a Ledge Grab ban is that these bans in place represent minor changes in a character's move set that are easily enforceable. If you add a LGL to stop Meta Knight from planking every single character is affected. If you add a rule saying only MK has a LGL then you admit MK is broken in a way that no one else is, when in fact everyone else has access to said mechanic. If a character cannot play on the same plane everyone else is when all else is equal, they are broken.

Ledge grab limits are bad for the game for reasons I stated above. They are instituted as a microban to address a single character with an overarching gameplay change that potentially affects more than the character it is aiming to address. ROB and Pit are great on the edge for instance and spend a lot of time there but dont' necessarily "plank" (or not very successfully, they are easily taken care of there). By instituting these rules, we are asking players (specifically MK players) not to play to win. We are asking them to make concessions. We are asking them to not do something we don't like because it's "gay." Either MK is allowed to play to win or he is bannable. Ban him or let planking, circle verbing, and other various gayness to reign; don't pussyfoot in the middle.

So yeah, these rules are scrubby, moreso than any character ban.

...............again.

 

[Chuee]

I got infracted for calling someone a noob because they can't handle nado.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

**** YOU YOU **** SUCKING DUMB *** ***** MOTHER ****ER I PROVIDED THE EXAMPLE OF ITEMS IN BRAWL AND YOU COMPLETELY IGNORE IT YOU IGNORANT DIP **** RAT **** RING MEAT. What the **** is a matter with you? You come in here and complain about other people intellgent and lack of understanding and lack of debating abilities, when you SHOWCASE ALL OF THESE QUALITIES MORE THAN ANYONE IN THIS THREAD. You REFUSE to respond to ANY real cases brought against you. GET ***** IN THE ****ING HEAD ***** BY MY BIG FACK BLACK **** MOTHER ****ER>

HAHAHAHAHAHA Holy ****. Crashics an ***!!!

 

[swordgard]

...............again.

Here is the problem with your statement.


There is no proof a LGL is needed or anti scrooging rules either.

Thats why adhd said that.

 

[Mic_128]

If you want to talk about infractions, either PM me or use Forum support and discus it with an admin. Not here.

 

[ADHD]

Here is the problem with your statement.


There is no proof a LGL is needed or anti scrooging rules either.

Thats why adhd said that.

Indubitably.

10indubitableness.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Here is the problem with your statement.


There is no proof a LGL is needed or anti scrooging rules either.

Thats why adhd said that.

If LGL and circle verbing rules aren't needed, then banning MK is not necessary. Let him reign. Let the game degenerate to two MKs planking and camping each other below the stage. Whatever. If that's the game you want, then it is.

My point is that either MK is broken or he isn't. If you want an LGL but don't want to ban MK, then you are wrong.

 

[Orion*]

Here is the problem with your statement.


There is no proof a LGL is needed or anti scrooging rules either.

Thats why adhd said that.

scrooging was out like. a week before they "banned" it. we didnt even try to see if either was beatable

 

[*JuriHan*]

oh lawd. People are still bickering over MK?

LOOOOOOOOOOOL


Only thing unfair about him is he doesn't have any bad match ups and plays well on all stages, making it hard to counterpick him. But isn't this the same case as Smash64's Pikachu and he wasn't banned....?

Well here's my opinion on banning him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7gjc2_KbH4&feature=PlayList&p=F8647BBAC992DEC3&index=0

 

[Chuee]

I love gimping meta knight.

 

[Orion*]

If you want to talk about infractions, either PM me or use Forum support and discus it with an admin. Not here.

sorry ill do it tomorrow.
to lazy tonight

If LGL and circle verbing rules aren't needed, then banning MK is not necessary. Let him reign. Let the game degenerate to two MKs planking and camping each other below the stage. Whatever. If that's the game you want, then it is.

My point is that either MK is broken or he isn't. If you want an LGL but don't want to ban MK, then you are wrong.

no. if you want a LGL and you want mk that means you think planking is broken but mk is not because many people believe characters other than mk can plank. stop making overgeneralized posts to people and then acting like youre superior its rude and it hurts so many peoples feelings. the game hasnt degenerated into *2 mks planking* infact, planking other mks is a BAD idea in the ditto unless you know how to tech or you are Farrr smarter and better at gimping that the other mk. inui tried to stick on the ledge to long when i mmed him at pound and i gimped dat mug for even thinking about it, albeight he still won the match 5th game <3. point is you dont know what youre talking about lol,

 

[Mic_128]

Oh yes, a great Kirby vs a random bad Meta on wifi is clearly compelling evidence. :/

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

no. if you want a LGL and you want mk that means you think planking is broken but mk is not because many people believe characters other than mk can plank.

LGL and MK aren't really separate issues, and no one planks as well as MK.

 

[Orion*]

LGL and MK aren't really separate issues, and no one planks as well as MK.

no its just that nobody planks Against mk you fool. pit and gaw can plank a lot of top tier chars for the $

 

[*JuriHan*]

Oh yes, a great Kirby vs a random bad Meta on wifi is clearly compelling evidence. :/

lololol at taking my video srsly. Lighten up. It's too serious in here. And I quit wifi btw XD

edit: The mk wasn't random, he's from swf but he didn't want me to idenfiy him. Can you blame him lol

 

[BarDulL]

As I said a moment ago:

MK's tools require overarching microbans to address without outright banning him. Seeing as the former is a bad option for obvious reasons, the latter is obviously the better option.

Hmm...that's interesting! Do his tools require microbans? Since when, and why?

Remember, there is no official stance on his tools!

So, for the sake of progression, take a stab at it; where can we draw the line between his tools...and any other character?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Hmm...that's interesting! Do his tools require microbans? Since when, and why?

Remember, there is no official stance on his tools!

So, for the sake of progression, take a stab at it; where can we draw the line between his tools...and any other character?

Maybe they don't require bans at all! But, if they don't, then they don't and MK isn't broken. If they do, then he is broken. That's all I have to say on the matter. Ban him, or let him reign. Stop artificially inhibiting his ability to play to win and let him reign.

 

[ADHD]

Hmm...that's interesting! Do his tools require microbans? Since when, and why?

Remember, there is no official stance on his tools!

So, for the sake of progression, take a stab at it; where can we draw the line between his tools...and any other character?

Dude you are just bad, and I'm pretty sure you are a tool.

 

[swordgard]

scrooging was out like. a week before they "banned" it. we didnt even try to see if either was beatable

And by they you mean bad TOs?

IIRC BBR has no public stance on LGL and Scrooging, we never banned it. Stop reffering to "them". Unless your talking about the illuminati, I heard they are the ones controlling our metagame with metaknight, and they want your money.

 

[Orion*]

Hmm...that's interesting! Do his tools require microbans? Since when, and why?

Remember, there is no official stance on his tools!

So, for the sake of progression, take a stab at it; where can we draw the line between his tools...and any other character?

he cant take a stab at it because his argument sucks. zss just gets ***** by mk and he feels butt hurt

edit: illuminati is real stfu

ummmmm. ive seen tourny listings on wifi and in person for NJ/NY with anti scrooging listed.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS doesn't really get ***** by MK. Ask any good ZSS player, the match-up is even(ish).

I have nothing personal to gain from an MK ban.

 

[swordgard]

he cant take a stab at it because his argument sucks. zss just gets ***** by mk and he feels butt hurt

edit: illuminati is real stfu

ummmmm. ive seen tourny listings on wifi and in person for NJ/NY with anti scrooging listed.

So what? Pound4 had scrubby rules for brawl and so does many other tourneys(ban d3 infinites? COMON).

 

[Orion*]

ZSS doesn't really get ***** by MK. Ask any good ZSS player, the match-up is even(ish).

I have nothing personal to gain from an MK ban.

zss is c tier rofl. she has Potential but atm it means nothing. its my favorite matchup, and the first time i played snakee in tournament i won 2-0 a few weeks ago. he may have not been at the top of his game, or whatever i honestly dont care i realize that he is an Amazing player. the point is that i know what im talking about when i say that shes really an overrated character, because ive played against her a lot

to be fair ill make a small write up and say that she has zero options oos against mk if he knows all of her weaknesses. its a 65/35 matchup once the mk realizes all of the shenanigans and tricks she has, understands her recovery options and abuses them. if you can NOT powershield her **** on reaction (i have a good reaction time lmao) then ill say the matchup is a bit more evenish.

 

[MarKO X]

The stage changes are random but it changes every 13 seconds (26 seconds between a non-blank transform and the next non-blank transform) and it will never use the same transformation twice in an 8 minute match.

ok, thanks for that info

You mean the tactic that makes the character invincible, invisable and just generally "takes away player control in an unreasonable way"? This isn't the normal Dimentional Cape, this is the infinite we're talking about here. It can be used in a billion absurd ways that aren't just camping, probably the most obvious is a way to recover from insanely far off stage back to the center without being touched.

wait, last time I checked, you can't IDC in the air. So you won't be "insanely far off the stage" and warp all the way back to the center of the stage. I can see if you said from the ledge to the center, but Zelda can do that... so what's the problem?

Does it prevent competition? Yes. Freeze glitches? No. Invisible Characters? Yes. Stall Tactics? Yes. Characters removed from the field? Yes.

That's 4 of 5.

It should (and is) be rightfully banned.

I guess the whole thing about IDC being used for positioning, as well as it's frame data (18 frames to get invincible, 27 frames to cooldown), was completely ignored.